444 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

Legbiter wrote...

Most of the OP's points apply equally to his beloved DA:O as well. Junk loot? Check. Samey game enviornment? Check. Unimportant side quests? Check.

Did the OP even play DA:O?

DA:O was still a great game.

No that junk loot was different. RTunning through Denerim over and over was idfferent. Those side quests while the fate of the world hung in the balance...different. It is all different because this isn't good so it must be. The whiners are so off their gourd it isn't funny anymore.

[DTKT]

Lorfean wrote...

Emerald Melios wrote...
Now, I'm sure Bioware knew they had a limited time frame to develop DA2. They probably weren't trying to make an "OMGepic masterpiece" like DA:O or BG2; they wanted to make a decent game with the resources they had. I think people should just appreciate what they have get rid of this entitlement complex.

Well, the problem though, in my opinion, is that it's just not really a decent game. It's nowhere near what we are used to getting from BioWare. And I'm not talking about all the changes compared to DA:O,  I'm talking about overall game and gameplay quality.

The Mass Effect series are action/RPG hybrids as well, but it works there. Gameplay-wise everything just kinda falls into place, shooter/cover mechanics, leveling systems, companion controls, pause and play. It works. The same was true for KotOR's console-ish over-the-shoulder camera and combat mechanics. It worked. In DA2, the gameplay doesn't work and the game ends up feeling like the result of some kind of unholy unity between a hack and slash action RPG and a pause and play tactical RPG. On acid.

I am interested in the story and some of the characters, but after playing for several hours I just had to quit the game in frustration due to the gameplay... And *that* is a bloody shame, and has never happened to me with a BioWare game. I've always enjoyed the gameplay in their games, and aisde from Jade Empire I have played all of them.

That was exactly my feeling.

Every time I boot it up and play for a bit, something doesnt feel right. I move around a dead city, a strong feeling of deja-vu with every single "new" area. Nothing fits. 

DAII doesnt flow well. Everything feels disjointed.

Modifié par DTKT, 14 mars 2011 - 02:41 .

[Psion17]

Darian Tylmare wrote...

I think people should stop talking about consolization but start talking of games meaning buisiness.
There's a reason why most new games are clones or franchise products. Play save to get money. The consoles are not to blame, it's the publishers and their shareholders for being greedy.

I'm not saying they are the whole problem but they do play a big part in why so many games suck these days, i own them myself and they have their place, but the technology within them is extremely outdated and as each year passes the more restrictive they become, (and they are going to be around for quite some time yet due to the current status of the global economy) and because of this they take that into account when they develop any new game, so the pc version which is so much more capable will always suffer for it. Deus Ex 2 is a good example of what can happen to a game when developing for all formats, so much with what was wrong with that title was due to technological restraints of the consoles at the time. I know there is nothing i can do about it as they are not going to cut them out of the market , but it annoys me nonetheless.

[rvgifford]

Wow. +1.

Add to the above that the game clearly ended 3 years earlier than the marketed decade of story and that the story ends like a book with the last fifth or so ripped out with a two page, poorly written epilogue stapled on, and the op's post mirrors my feelings exactly.

A couple of points I actually liked but don't forgive the whole:

1. I actually liked the combat changes. I know plenty will disagree. Overall it was more engaging. However, generic, spawning in mid-air behind you in waves, non-heroic mobs with ten times as many hitpoints as a warrior with a constitution fetish counteracted my feeling of like for the change.

2. The side quests were much more interesting and engaging than DA:O's, however, as the op stated, they seem to be an attempt to distract you from a shortened, disjointed, less engaging main story arc.[/list]And the review bashing DA2 . . . awesome. The responses from the developer . . . pathetic. Blame players not liking change? I loved the change to the combat system, but still overall disliked the many, many failures that this game embodies.

I will be buying Mass Effect 3 (Don't disappoint me here Bioware!). The changes from 1 to 2 there were 90% awesomesauce. The story in ME1 was better to me, but ME2's changes made it a more enjoyable game for me. Aside from the hope that is ME3, DA2 has made me question preordering any more Bioware games as long as EA owns them until they've been out so long I can buy a cheap used copy. Change can be both bad and good. Change for the sake of change, or change for the sake of pocketing our money with minimal effort is never going to be good no matter how much EA and Bioware try to fault the consumer.

Modifié par rvgifford, 14 mars 2011 - 02:49 .

[QwibQwib]

I consider myself a huge bioware fan, I loved most of the changes, everything is perfect, I only have one problem (please bioware don't hate me) but I feel that 60.00 was too much for such a short game. It lacked content. When i first played I was so excited.

I thought, "cool, ima rule krkwall, now, let's go to another, town/city/whatever." DA2 is better in some aspect, but it won't completely surpass Origins, if someone updates origins engine from DA2 I'll go straight back. I think bioware focused too much on console fans and let us your pc fans, neglected.

[Jussylein]

I am very disappointed with the game not only the scenes that were in the trailer before the game did not exist, No, the game is only 6 years but it was advertised at 10 years, where are the remaining 4 years. I think that Bioware had cut all because EA had made ​​print.

[Legbiter]

darklordpocky-san wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

Most of the OP's points apply equally to his beloved DA:O as well. Junk loot? Check. Samey game enviornment? Check. Unimportant side quests? Check.

Did the OP even play DA:O?

DA:O was still a great game.

We're mostly upset that those aspects were the ones to recieve an "upgrade".

it's like the beat themselves at being lazy

Yet, you guys drone on about DA:O like it was the Platonic Ideal of the perfect RPG, a shining beacon for the ages. It wasn't, it was just a sodding good game.

And junk loot in DA 2 is handled vastly better than in it's predecessor. It can be sold off en-masse instead of me having to comb through the inventory getting rid of each individual stack of frostrock, spirit shards and crappy darkspawn weaponry.

So...progress!

[SnowHeart1]

I agree with Riloux but want to expand on one of her points, namely the side-quests. I actually didn't mind the side-quests that were in the game (except for the "find x number of items randomly scattered in obscure locations that will not be marked with quest icons"... that was highly tedious). They were fine. What I did mind was that there weren't side-quests that allowed us to explore the history of Kirkwall and some of the reasons why the city is facing the problems it has. Bioware tried to deal with this in codex entries, so I know they put thought into the backstory for this, but they really should have included a separate quest line to explore this stuff. It was an awesome opportunity totally squandered.

[Pixieking]

Legbiter wrote...

And junk loot in DA 2 is handled vastly better than in it's predecessor. It can be sold off en-masse instead of me having to comb through the inventory getting rid of each individual stack of frostrock, spirit shards and crappy darkspawn weaponry.

So...progress!

I would question the handling of junk loot. Here's why:

I play a mage. I find armour or a shield that needs a high dex or strength. I do not have a high dex or strength. I cannot change companion's armour. Thus, it is junk. However, it's not placed in junk. So, you still have the problem of going through your inventory, selling off pieces of random rubbish for gold. It's just it's "armour rubbish". Which may come in handy at 20th level, if I raise my str or dex to 20, say, but... I'm a mage. Why would I? I mean, really?

So, I would argue it's merely the illusion of progress.

[Melra]

Oh look it's Riloux again... *sighs and facepalms*

You dislike the game, everybody gets it, now could you just stay away?

[mattydef]

bioware had a meeting that went something like this: "alright guys dao was such a huge success and has a big fanbase so we can go with the same concept and fix all the flaws and make an even better game or......we can go with plan B aka money hungry, which is appeal to more people and get more money and by time our real fans realize the mess we make we can all laugh it off otw to the bank"

[Apechild]

mattydef wrote...

bioware had a meeting that went something like this: "alright guys dao was such a huge success and has a big fanbase so we can go with the same concept and fix all the flaws and make an even better game or......we can go with plan B aka money hungry, which is appeal to more people and get more money and by time our real fans realize the mess we make we can all laugh it off otw to the bank"

Probably more like EA sat Bioware down and said that they were going for Plan B and that they only had X amount of months to make the game in.

[bill4747bill]

Dystopian Dream wrote...

I agree completely but it seems some 12 year olds on here disagree with you and spam threads with pictures of dogs

I thought I was 44, but it comes as quite a shock to discover I am actually 12 years old!

Wait...I disagree but never post pictures of dogs! whew!  Back to age 44.

[Enscar]

Agree with OP 100%... One of the top reasons I love Bioware games, besides obvious brilliant story (They don't get points for that anymore) is companion interaction. DA:O was great in regards to that but with DAII I just wasn't feeling that same connection with companions, I didn't care about them in the end.. Too much focus on what I thought to be a fairly linear short story and not enough on companions this time round.

To me it also felt really rushed, whether that was the case or its designed that way on purpose we can't be sure.. I can't blame them with how much SWTOR is costing them but I just wish they did that with a different title and gave the DA series the time and respect it deserves...

Game was good, could of been a lot better if it just stayed in the oven a bit longer with concentration on companions/locations/quests/items...

Also I should point out exactly what I mean with Companions.. The whole giving them individual locations was a good concept.. But with the size of the house we have I could of done with an option to allow a select few to move in... But with the design of companion interaction this time round it wouldn't of mattered. If we were able to discuss options, or recent events at any time like DA:O had.. It would of made a big difference in that area.. Just my opinion on that.

Basically feels like Bioware went with the Awakening approach to companions, which I didn't mind... for an expansion.. but for a new game all together I think the DA:O approach was far superior

[Debakoleriker]

Riloux wrote...

-Reusing the same four maps 500 times.
-Setting the whole game in one city.
-Enemies have a ton of HP and come in waves so the game feels longer.
-Frame narrative to avoid being too descriptive about what happens between large periods of time.
-Half as much dialogue, more passive interaction.
-Millions of stupid side quests that have nothing to do with anything.
-Dull environment bereft of life and matter.
-Inability to customize companions allowed you to skip designing different armor models.
-Collecting hundreds of-- literally, junk items-- to create the illusion of immersion and depth.
-Poor character development, so you hardly care about your companions by the end of the game. 
-Lack of any substantial choices that have lasting effects.
-Contrived ending, that tells you nothing, and leaves a huge gap for sub-par DLC
-Generic UI showing a lack of creativitiy and effort.

You lose! Good day, serrah. 

This game is a far greater source of embarassment for your company than it is a disappointment for us.

agreed.

just some fine points that should be added to the list:
- either make all AoE spells cones or centered around the caster or give us a tactical view so its possible to aim them precisely for crying out loud... if you are a masochist and play mage on nightmare like me, the greatest challenge is to kill your enemies before you friendly fire your mates to death.
- and the crazy companion AI doesnt help either. Tactics are nice and appreciated, but aren't an excuse for a retarded AI and pathfinding
- If i order a character to change position I ****ing dont want him to stop or run somewhere else just because I switched to a different character without telling my group to hold position (which is only available for the whole group, not a single companion t.t)
- And please bring out a real collector's edition next time, I mean there is a collector's edition of the strategy guide ffs, but not for the game itself, seriously guys....and maybe, just maybe it will be as amazing as the The Witcher 2 CE (I am not saying that TW2 is better than DA2, but even the content and goodies of the regular version beats the DA2 Signature Edition by lenghts).
- I want formations back :/
-and if every second item gives me +15% fire damage, give me more spells that deal firedamage ffs :/ same every other spell damage variety except spirit.

Well, now I am part of the vocal minority instead of the silent majority and the only thing necessary for that change was for my favourite developers to create a sub par game. Don't get me wrong, it's not terrible, but it has shattered my otherwise unshakeable faith in Bioware. My faith in Bioware lasted from the intro of Baldur's Gate 1 to the 2nd hour of DA2 and it somehow saddens me to witness the fall of a giant. I hope you only stumbled and didn't fall on your own sword.

I guess for the next title I'll wait for reviews or try out a cracked version and then decide wether to buy it at release, as a budget version or not at all instead of just preordering asap, silly old me

Modifié par Debakoleriker, 14 mars 2011 - 04:05 .

[randName]

While I prefer a lot of stuff in DA2 over DA:O; in many regards its also worse, but mostly its due to either trying to be something it can't.

The last part is for me mostly that its trying to be an action adventure game too much; but the controls are not made for it, nor does God of War and the like force you to direct 4 party members, all while walking around pillars of flaming death, or just get out of AoE zones; and it would have been fine if the AI had any sense; now you have to be wary due to the high risks of any of the party members deciding to run right through highly lethal AoE areas, even if they could easily see the pillar of fire, and that its just a narrow pillar; but no, lets run to our death for no reason. This also goes for bosses rolling against you like you were in a Mario game.

& While I like large parts of the city, and the general milieu; there are obvious issues esp. with the caves being mostly a bore, since you already know they by heart a short while in.

& The companion gear is a joke; they said you could customize it, but with what? runes. Now everyone, even mages just get a generic and good armour; even when they shouldn't easily wear plate. (Merrill with Rock Armour got as much in armour rating as Aveline in plate). In a sense I'm happy, since the AI is so horrible that you will see them randomly a round the battlefield unless you either order them at every turn, or you can make tactics for almost any potential scenario; you can't, but even if you can't - some options should be in from the start.

& Just things like Hold not working outside combat if you get too far (and you have companions teleport/run right into those horrible and buggy trap rooms and get so many injuries that you either reload or live with losing more coin on injury kits than the quest will ever bring in.

& Claiming we are afraid change is daft; I loved almost every game from BW, and most of the changes; I actually thought DA:O kept too much of the clutter inventory system, even making it worse by essentially giving you the magic bag of holding instead; now making you lug around more crap than a caravan of fools.

& ME2 was good, because of what they did change; there are issues, but there are always issues; here the new is, aside from all else, also a bad AI, well it was bad in DA:O, but here it matters, badly designed fights and re:re:re:re:re:re:re:re:re using whole areas ad infinitum while having the gall to claim that you are in fact in a new dungeon (I prefer it when they don't, you and you visit the same area twice or more).

Or obviously the maker is a rather uncreative chap that can't bother and prefers to paste and paste again.

Modifié par randName, 14 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[Nyjahl]

Riloux wrote...

-Reusing the same four maps 500 times.
-Setting the whole game in one city.
-Enemies have a ton of HP and come in waves so the game feels longer.
-Frame narrative to avoid being too descriptive about what happens between large periods of time.
-Half as much dialogue, more passive interaction.
-Millions of stupid side quests that have nothing to do with anything.
-Dull environment bereft of life and matter.
-Inability to customize companions allowed you to skip designing different armor models.
-Collecting hundreds of-- literally, junk items-- to create the illusion of immersion and depth.
-Poor character development, so you hardly care about your companions by the end of the game. 
-Lack of any substantial choices that have lasting effects.
-Contrived ending, that tells you nothing, and leaves a huge gap for sub-par DLC
-Generic UI showing a lack of creativitiy and effort.

You lose! Good day, serrah. 

This game is a far greater source of embarassment for your company than it is a disappointment for us.

I agree with all of this.

I've been a Bioware fan for a long, long time. Back when some of the team worked with others in another company to make Fallout 2. I loved BG1 (which I got into late) & then BG2, it got me back into the real crpgs where before that I mostly played Tomb Raider, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy games on the Playstation. Then along came KOTOR, then Mass Effect 1 and then Dragon Age: Origins.

I loved those games, but the sequels to the latter two did not live up to my expectations. Mass Effect was a fantastic game, that only needed a few tweaks and improvements. The same goes for the Dragon Age franchise, it only needed a few tweaks and improvements. The only difference between this game and ME2 is that I "might" actually consider going back to play ME2 so I can finish the Shadowbroker DLC. I can't even find the motivation to collect the gold to go into the Deeproads for DA2 as of yet...

This game could have easily been a console only product titled, Dragon Age: Kirkwall (like the many Forgotten Realms titles that have been made), and I would have been happy to wait for a true sequel to DA:O (heck, I would be busy with SW: TOR anyways).

Modifié par Nyjahl, 14 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[revkrazy]

You guys complain too much. The games not perfect. Oh well, life goes on.

The funny part is this could arguably be Biowares worst game and It's still better and receiving better reviews than most games.

For a company that has had a track record for great games you guys sure are losing your cool.

Anyways, great game not as good as the first and some laziness comes through but still solid.

What's yet to be seen is if Bioware will take what have learned with this release and improve on it. These post of "Bioware was my favorite company now I will never buy anything that start's with the letter B" is silly

To the PC gamers: You release that the console market out wieghts  the PC market ? Pretty bold to be saying that Bioware should not have a strong focus on consoles.

Well that's all, continue this endless flame war with user review scores of 0's and 1's. 


BIOWARE
Please patch the armor glitch. It's a game breaker and it's disappointing to see that it was overlooked.

Modifié par revkrazy, 14 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[ZtalkerRM]

mattydef wrote...

EA had a meeting that went something like this: "alright guys dao was such a huge success and has a big fanbase so we can go with the same concept and fix all the flaws and make an even better game or......we can go with plan B aka money hungry, which is appeal to more people and get more money and by time our real fans realize the mess we make we can all laugh it off otw to the bank"

Fixed.

OT:

I think this is not Bio's fault at all. Rather EA's.
I remember vaguely they actually brushed of Lucasarts on Kotor 1 a few times. Lucasarts is infamous for rushing games, with TFU2 as worst example.
For part 2 of Kotor, Obsidian couldn't do the same. The result is well-known....a good game that is only enjoyable (playable) after much patching and feels 'rushed' anyway.

I fear this is EA's 'every year a new game in a franchise' policy. Previous years, EA wasn't as greedy, instead experimenting with franchises like Mirror's Edge and Dead Space.
The 1-year policy works wonders for Fifa and Madden or shooters, but for RPG's not at all. I hope Bioware can resist that pressure like they did with Kotor and Dragon Age 1 (DA:O was in development hell at some point IIRC) and keep on going like this. I agree DA:2 could have used an extra few months though.

However, I can perfectly accept the fact that tis game isn't 'perfect.' Like I can accept that from Kotor 2. Because is't not the developers fault. They arent the one with the rush policy, as evidenced by the fact no game before DA:2 felt that way.

[Addai]

Apechild wrote...
Ah yes, the shield, forgot about that - I use dispel magic whenever I see them do that so I tend to forget about it. So thats three spells; big AoE, shield & teleport. Not enough of a toolest. If they'd had knocked my party members back with force spells as I do to mobs, or if they'd countered my magic by dispelling it or had summoned creatures to attack me, or had made use of AoE 'utility' spells to prevent my 'tank' getting to them or had any number of other types of spells then they would havebeen more of a challenge.

If the enemy mages were any more powerful than they already are, it would be simply impossible.  I mean, if you leave a saarebas alive for more than ten seconds then your whole party is decimated.  I just don't care for futility in combat.

Which would you rather walk around & explore? Which one looks like it has life & character to it?

I pre-ordered The Witcher 2 before I pre-ordered DA2 and I have to say I'm looking forward to it even more than I was before, but thats just personal preference.

I love the way the Witcher creates a dismal medieval world, but again, the games are not the same.  Just filling up the world with NPCs who say the same things and don't interact is not preferable to me.  I did find Kirkwall to have its own character- it's just a different place than the Witcher environment.

[Demx]

A couple of things I didn't like that I didn't see mentioned here had to deal with the background npcs. Some of the groups of npcs can be passed through. There are a lot more bald npcs. The obvious cloning of three npcs to form a crowd of nobles when dealing with the Arishok at the end.

[-BBH-Omega]

fallingseraph wrote...

Warrior Archers
Arcane Warrior Melee Mages
Strength Rogues
Dual Wield Warriors

All my favorites are gone.

Besides overuse of the same areas, the removal of cross class builds are my biggest gripes with this game.

[randName]

Addai67 wrote...

Apechild wrote...
Ah yes, the shield, forgot about that - I use dispel magic whenever I see them do that so I tend to forget about it. So thats three spells; big AoE, shield & teleport. Not enough of a toolest. If they'd had knocked my party members back with force spells as I do to mobs, or if they'd countered my magic by dispelling it or had summoned creatures to attack me, or had made use of AoE 'utility' spells to prevent my 'tank' getting to them or had any number of other types of spells then they would havebeen more of a challenge.

If the enemy mages were any more powerful than they already are, it would be simply impossible.  I mean, if you leave a saarebas alive for more than ten seconds then your whole party is decimated.  I just don't care for futility in combat.

The enemy mages are badly designed I think - they are, unlike your mages, all nuclear powerhouses; so they need a zillion HP or you would decimate them before they could ever do anything; and even then they are so lethal that to keep them protected BW decided to give them their sphere and their teleport function.

Why?

Make mages more a dime a dozen, make them stand at the back, and make enemies protect their mages; make mages do less damage, and not be able to kill all but Aveline in a one shot blob of doom; or why not have a mage that buffs her side, while throwing a few heals? The next throws a miscderection hex, and an other is happily using CC.

Now all mages are all the same, save yours; and it makes me angry at BW and the devs when ever I see one; who decided that the best resort was to make them so inhuman? who in cloth can take what they do? 

Save that cloth armour in DA2 is the new plate, meh.

[Addai]

AlesMrak wrote...

I just don't understand anyone who defends these shortcomings of the game like map recycle, dumb down rpg elements, etc and pay 60 bucks. I would understand it if the price of the game was like 15 bucks, why 15 bucks you ask? Because the developement was done in one year vs 4+ years for DAO, so that means 60 div 4 is 15 (15 buck per year of the dev. year), so there you have it 15 bucks.

br.
Dr.Jones

Well, let me give you perspective.  I paid 50 bucks plus the guide for Fallout New Vegas, was really looking forward to it.  It was fun, but after 20 or so hours I was so bored that I really couldn't be bothered to get through the final.  I did, but it was a chore and gave no reward whatsoever.  I've tried to replay and can't.  I may or may not get any DLC for it.  In contrast, DA2 had me on the edge of my seat and absolutely absorbed this past week.  I care about the characters.  The story was both compelling and wrenching.   Did I get my money's worth?  Not compared to Origins, but compared to most other games, yes.