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Did you think we wouldn't notice how many corners you cut?


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#201
Project Requiem

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2Hard2C wrote...
-Reusing the same four maps 500 times.
1. I agree the maps repeated
quite a bit, but it was more like the same 7 maps 100 times. Bad, but
not as bad.
-At least we can both agree to this.

-Setting the whole game in one city.
2. The
majority is set in Kirkwall, but to say the whole game is a lie, unless
you rushed through and didn't do anything.
-That's still no excuse, we were given many cities to travel to in Denerium. Each with their own design.

-Enemies have a ton of HP and come in waves so the game feels longer.
3. Some have really small HP, and it varies quite a bit. You also attack faster in this game.
-The extended HP is an excuse for button mashing or faster attacking. The waves of enemies that occur in every battle you fight give the illusion that the game feels longer as well. This you cannot deny, and the whole "appearing out of thin air" does not make the game more strategical.

-Frame narrative to avoid being too descriptive about what happens between large periods of time.
4. Over 10 years, there are large periods of time of boredom or unimportance, so it makes sense in the context of the story.
-The story didn't even go as far as ten years, only seven. Many things can occur in three years, just look at what has been accomplished within each year you play, the time jumps just seemed like a sad excuse to "span" the timeline of the game.


-Half as much dialogue, more passive interaction.
5. False. You can't open up a dialogue wheel everytime you talk to somebody, but there is as much dialouge in the game. Also, if you completely beat Origins dialouge runs out after quite a while.
-Your belief that this is false, is false. Dragon Age: Origins has approximately 56,000 spoken lines where as Dragon Age 2 has only 38,000 spoken lines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that is less dialogue than it's predecessor.

-Millions of stupid side quests that have nothing to do with anything.
6. Somebody didn't pay attention at all during Origins. Even random side-quests carry more wait than most/all of the Origins quest. One of the better changes in DA2.
-Side quests will always be side quests, but at least in Origins, there was an actual reason behind most of it. You were usually given side quests by individuals that each had presented their own reasons. In Dragon Age 2, most side quests are given by random letters, appear in a new act, or given for "lost and found" items. Of course, both game suffers from an area specifically to retrieve an abundant amount of side quests. However, there was even a Chanter's board in DA2 but from playing throughout the entire game, it never showed any side quests.

-Dull environment bereft of life and matter.
7. Again, somebody wasn't paying attention during Origins. The Deep Roads looked the same, the woods looked the same, and everything was brown.
-At least there was variety, every hideout in DA2 looked the same, every dungeon looked the same, every cave looked the same. The Wending Woods at least shared a Dalish camp, a forest that wasn't linear, and a ruins within that. In the second installment, a cave in Wounded coast looks just a like a cave in the Bone Pit, which looks just like the caves in Sundermount.

-Inability to customize companions allowed you to skip designing different armor models.
8. You can upgrade them. Look around, they are there for those who look.
-Upgrading does NOT replace the ability to customize companions. The upgrades only gave "pre-made" boosts to their stats and do not change the appearance whatsoever. If we were given the ability to actually equip them with armor we found, their stats would be much better than a set one.

-Collecting hundreds of-- literally, junk items-- to create the illusion of immersion and depth.
9. At least the junk items are marked as such. In Origins, you picked up bad loot right and left, and carrying around Deathroot and Elfroot was a pain.
-Deathroot and Elfroot were useful for those who actually crafted, and even 99 of each would only take up two slots of your inventory. The loot system in DA2 has been significantly dumbed down because just about everything you pick up is junk. All equipment that does not fit within your class are thrown out the side.

-Poor character development, so you hardly care about your companions by the end of the game. 
10. Talk to them. And explore.
-Talking them does nothing but give one-liners. We are only given the choice when we are "told" to talk to them for a companion quest. And "exploring" only gives them party banter where we can understand the characters better, but not where we can interact with them.

-Lack of any substantial choices that have lasting effects.
11. Out and out lie. Beat the game, there is at least one, not none.
-Nothing to say here, there are some choices that do have a great effect on the story.

-Contrived ending, that tells you nothing, and leaves a huge gap for sub-par DLC
12. Except for Awakening and Shale, all the other DLC for Origins was sub-par. Moot point.
-Once again, does not excuse for the false advertising of the story when we were told to "embark on an adventure that spans for a decade". Seven years. Not ten, seven. If three years were added for DLC, then we all should agree that is unjustified.

-Generic UI showing a lack of creativitiy and effort.
13. They simplified it. Deal.
-The simplifications were, in fact, the problem. And it does show a huge lack of creativity and effort because the menu looks nearly EXACTLY like the interface in Mass Effect 2.

You obviously rushed through the game(or have yet to beat it), and much of your criticizism is unnessesisary if you took your time with the game. It has it flaws, but it is NOT bad.Posted Image

I put in 60 hours into the game, and I did not rush it, I took the time to do mostly every quest, some of which were impossible due to it being bugged. The flaws and lack of originality to copy and paste are BAD. The only good thing I can see in the game was the writing. The ending, which was AMAZING by the way, but dissapointing to be left open-ended. Oh, and the faster loading and saving times, those were great.


Modifié par Project Requiem, 14 mars 2011 - 03:43 .


#202
Pugsie

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i will say i like the new combat and not having to figure out who likes what gifts, but i hate not being able to gear up my companions and you only go to 3 places the entire game, i know on DAO when felt i was nearing the end of the game i was trying to drag it out as long as i could on DA2 i rushed through most of the 3rd act cause i just wanted it to be over with.............which i understand there will be another game but there really is no closure at all to this game

#203
Guest_elvn2007_*

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I do have this to say I don't like to companion choices, for instance If I play a mage I lose Bethany, who is to say I will not become a healer and use her as DPS, 4 slots 3 classes, why force it on me.

#204
Gvaz

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The waves thing is because consoles can't deal with all the enemies at once on screen (not enough memory), but they had to add enemies anyways to pad the length.

The UI is okay, but it takes up too much space on the PC.

I agree with everything else said in the OP however. This game isn't that good by bioware standards at all.

#205
kingjamesjr1

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Well i play the game three times already and i still don't understand what ur seeing this game is horriblabe in comparison.Just in case i miss something in the first and sec play through i did everything that could be done in this limited game that could be done. So imho bioware sold us out EA ruin another titled as usual.

#206
skyrend

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Emerald Melios wrote...

This whole forum is a trainwreck, between the wangsting elitists and image spammers.

Now, I'm sure Bioware knew they had a limited time frame to develop DA2. They probably weren't trying to make an "OMGepic masterpiece" like DA:O or BG2; they wanted to make a decent game with the resources they had. I think people should just appreciate what they have get rid of this entitlement complex.


Maybe if this game cost half as much as it did, you'd have a point.

The real issue is that if this is the game that Bioware wanted to make in its entirety, you have to wonder if the people that led this project are competent.

If Bioware was pressured into rushing this, as the composer's comments suggest, you have to wonder how this affects their future projects.

Either way, it's a lose-lose.

#207
dark zentai

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well the problem is most of the bioware team is working on MA3
with shooters being more popular and killing the RPGs
most of the team will be working on the game that will make more money
but saying that i love DA2 it a great game

#208
Aesieru

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Can't you just admit that maybe BioWare screwed up with what they thought people wanted, and maybe it wasn't so much EA?

#209
DTKT

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 This whole forum is a trainwreck, between the wangsting elitists and image spammers.

Now, I'm sure Bioware knew they had a limited time frame to develop DA2. They probably weren't trying to make an "OMGepic masterpiece" like DA:O or BG2; they wanted to make a decent game with the resources they had. I think people should just appreciate what they have get rid of this entitlement complex.


This is Bioware. This is not Obsidian.

This is the Studio that created the Mass Effect universe. The studio that started something with Dragon Age Origins.

I have a come to expect great games from them. Not compromises.

How would have things been if Blizzard had released an "okay" Starcraft II? Or a bad World of Warcraft expansion?

#210
Persephone

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DTKT wrote...

How would have things been if Blizzard had released an "okay" Starcraft II? Or a bad World of Warcraft expansion?


I've yet to discover ANYTHING good about WOW.:bandit:

#211
skyrend

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Aesieru wrote...

Can't you just admit that maybe BioWare screwed up with what they thought people wanted, and maybe it wasn't so much EA?

Seriously, though, are Bioware designers so incompetent that they would think that people wanted re-re-re-used maps and unfun waves of trash mobs?

#212
Aesieru

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DTKT wrote...

 This whole forum is a trainwreck, between the wangsting elitists and image spammers.

Now, I'm sure Bioware knew they had a limited time frame to develop DA2. They probably weren't trying to make an "OMGepic masterpiece" like DA:O or BG2; they wanted to make a decent game with the resources they had. I think people should just appreciate what they have get rid of this entitlement complex.


This is Bioware. This is not Obsidian.

This is the Studio that created the Mass Effect universe. The studio that started something with Dragon Age Origins.

I have a come to expect great games from them. Not compromises.

How would have things been if Blizzard had released an "okay" Starcraft II? Or a bad World of Warcraft expansion?


Starcraft II was barely "OKay" and was a butchered story with retcons all around.

#213
kozzy420420

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I think the reused environments, lack of customization for partners, less items and no iso view hurt the game but to me it also did a bunch of things very well. The dialogue, story, characters, graphics, combat and performance(pc) was very good.

To me this game is as good as Jade Empire was and nearly as good as ME2, definatly not as good as Origins or Baldurs Gate but still a very good game in its own right imo.

For me I am dissapointed by a few aspects of the game but still well worth the money I spent on it. Still feels like Bioware game and still feels like Origins to me, just with some things streamlined like ME2 did to ME1.

8.5/10, another very good game from Bioware, unfortunatly just not up to par with Origins.

Modifié par kozzy420420, 14 mars 2011 - 03:57 .


#214
Apechild

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DTKT wrote...

 This whole forum is a trainwreck, between the wangsting elitists and image spammers.

Now, I'm sure Bioware knew they had a limited time frame to develop DA2. They probably weren't trying to make an "OMGepic masterpiece" like DA:O or BG2; they wanted to make a decent game with the resources they had. I think people should just appreciate what they have get rid of this entitlement complex.


This is Bioware. This is not Obsidian.

This is the Studio that created the Mass Effect universe. The studio that started something with Dragon Age Origins.

I have a come to expect great games from them. Not compromises.

How would have things been if Blizzard had released an "okay" Starcraft II? Or a bad World of Warcraft expansion?


Reputations. Years to build, mere moments to destroy.

Bioware put themselves up on their own pedestal by giving us great games in the past. They gave us worlds that were brought wonderfully to life. They were interesting and made us want to explore them. They also gave us interesting characters & storylines, intriguing plots, twists & turns.

But now, whether forced by EA or by the 'CoDitus' of the gaming industry, releasing as many games as possible in a short time frame to maximise profits, Bioware's reputation as a decent RPG maker is almost on the line. We -know- they can deliver, we've experienced the excellence they can deliver in a game, but what we've recieved makes no sense.

That they were given such a limited developement cycle can only suggest that a publisher, once again!, ruins -ANOTHER- game by controlling the purse strings and demanding the game to be released now, now!, NOW!. We've seen it before, the most prominant example I can think of right now being Warhammer Online. That was rushed out and look at how unfinished it was! The release now, patch later mentality brought about by consoles having a direct connection to the internet has spread throughout the corners of the gaming industry. Seems only indy developers and a few select developers are able to deliver decent games upon shipping.

Modifié par Apechild, 14 mars 2011 - 04:04 .


#215
NRO TYN

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Aesieru wrote...

Can't you just admit that maybe BioWare screwed up with what they thought people wanted, and maybe it wasn't so much EA?


Slow clapPosted Image

#216
augustburnt

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Stanley Woo wrote...

I am rather pleasantly surprised by the debate in this thread. Please keep it up, and let's please not allow name-calling, swearing, or insults to ruin what I consider to be one of the more reasonable threads in this forum. THank you, everyone.


We do it just for you, and so that maybe somebody will read this and DA3 will be diffrent

#217
jones0901

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love to see someone pull some hard data to make arguements about length, number of sidequests, amount of areas etc. everyone is wrong until there is quantitative data to use.

#218
sector001

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It's probably been said already but with the amount of time the DA2 team was given to complete this game I think they did a good job. Would DA2 been better if they had more then a years time frame to work on the title... I don't know but from what I've seen as of late shorter development times will be the future trend of most major game companies.

#219
DTKT

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Apechild wrote...

DTKT wrote...

 This whole forum is a trainwreck, between the wangsting elitists and image spammers.

Now, I'm sure Bioware knew they had a limited time frame to develop DA2. They probably weren't trying to make an "OMGepic masterpiece" like DA:O or BG2; they wanted to make a decent game with the resources they had. I think people should just appreciate what they have get rid of this entitlement complex.


This is Bioware. This is not Obsidian.

This is the Studio that created the Mass Effect universe. The studio that started something with Dragon Age Origins.

I have a come to expect great games from them. Not compromises.

How would have things been if Blizzard had released an "okay" Starcraft II? Or a bad World of Warcraft expansion?


Reputations. Years to build, mere moments to destroy.

Bioware put themselves up on their own pedestal by giving us great games in the past. They gave us worlds that were brought wonderfully to life. They were interesting and made us want to explore them. They also gave us interesting characters & storylines, intriguing plots, twists & turns.

But now, whether forced by EA or by the 'CoDitus' of the gaming industry, releasing as many games as possible in a short time frame to maximise profits, Bioware's reputation as a decent RPG maker is almost on the line. We -know- they can deliver, we've experienced the excellence they can deliver in a game, but what we've recieved makes no sense.

That they were given such a limited developement cycle can only suggest that a publisher, once again!, ruins -ANOTHER- game by controlling the purse strings and demanding the game to be released. We've seen it so many times, the most prominant example I can think of right now being Warhammer Online. That was rushed out and look at how unfinished it was! The release now, patch later mentality brought about by consoles having a direct connection to the internet has spread throughout the corners of the gaming industry. Seems only indy developers and a few select developers are able to deliver decent games upon shipping.


Indeed.

Worse of all, it just takes one game. 

The interesting part is the even inside EA, Bioware "rep" has probably been tarnished. Metacritic, while not best tool for numbers, is incredibly important to producers, marketing and management in general. To me, an 80 is a good game. But to EA, given the money and the time spend on Dragon Age II, is that enough? A studio that was incensed by critics, won a **** load of GOTY for ME2 can make an 80 rating game?

Wasnt the THQ CEO just saying that you cant make "good games" anymore, you need to strive for great?

We are just left to wonder on what will happen next? Nothing? Maybe.

Or maybe Bioware really has changed.

Modifié par DTKT, 14 mars 2011 - 04:11 .


#220
General Flynt

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GvazElite wrote...

The waves thing is because consoles can't deal with all the enemies at once on screen (not enough memory), but they had to add enemies anyways to pad the length.

The UI is okay, but it takes up too much space on the PC.

I agree with everything else said in the OP however. This game isn't that good by bioware standards at all.


You are completely wrong about the enemies. Consoles can handle multiple enemies just fine  Absurd even two worlds managed it and they don't have the expertise and money bioware does.

#221
Jaulen

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[quote]xYOSSARIANx wrote...

[quote]Maderas_ wrote...

Jealousy of what ?, I have the same game as you and it plays on my huge TV while I sit on my sofa, I think it's probably you that's jealous, you don't want to share your toys, tough for you because we all get to play it, grow up and learn to live with it.

[/quote]

Jealous of being able to play on your big tv in the living room? Nope. I get to take my game with me where ever I go, airplane? airport? hotel room? bedroom? the inlaws house? the library? work? Yup...I can play it whenever and whereever I want. Much nicer than being forced to play it in one location. Posted Image

#222
TehPear

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Riloux wrote...

-Reusing the same four maps 500 times.
-Setting the whole game in one city.
-Enemies have a ton of HP and come in waves so the game feels longer.
-Frame narrative to avoid being too descriptive about what happens between large periods of time.
-Half as much dialogue, more passive interaction.
-Millions of stupid side quests that have nothing to do with anything.
-Dull environment bereft of life and matter.
-Inability to customize companions allowed you to skip designing different armor models.
-Collecting hundreds of-- literally, junk items-- to create the illusion of immersion and depth.
-Poor character development, so you hardly care about your companions by the end of the game. 
-Lack of any substantial choices that have lasting effects.
-Contrived ending, that tells you nothing, and leaves a huge gap for sub-par DLC
-Generic UI showing a lack of creativitiy and effort.

You lose! Good day, serrah. 

This game is a far greater source of embarassment for your company than it is a disappointment for us.

I agree and disagree with you, sir/ma'am.

1. I do feel the reusual is a little overdone and was lazy.

2. Here I'm mixed as feel the story is meant to be set in Kirkwall and the surrounding area for DA2. While DAO was meant for Ferelden and the Blight that was in Ferelden. Bioware could have atleast went little further in the Free Marches without any DLCs to milk us.

3. Neh. Varies amongst NPCs and DA:O had same kinda thing like any RPG. Here AoEs and the combat system kills em fast. The waves however, I do not like. It shows more lazyiness that they didn't want to design more thought out encounters like most of Origins had. Waves if they were is sparingly and wern't used as crazy and came from out of the woodwork literally it'd be way better.

4. I don't mind it, as it is afterall the story of Hawke told by Varric. It kinda has to do it as some the things get mundane with more mundane tasks and that's just not fun. (Though I think it would have been interesting to play out the first year in Kirkwall with whatever organization you were with. Most likely and sadly will be a DLC.)

5. Disagree. Still quite abit of dialouge options just it's different from origins due to the Mass Effect wheel now(which, quite honestly I think is going to be a staple of Bioware games for the future seeing as SWTOR is using it). Origins you'd have 5-8 lines to choose from, many were investigation lines and two or three were decisions. Same thing here with that wheel. Only thing I don't like with the wheel is it's random at times for dialougue choices.

6. Origins and practically any other RPG has it. Origins you'd do a lot side quest that were completly useless for the outcome of the game and helping the blight. Favours for a Certain Interested Parties is just an example at least for me. Doesn't help really and has you collecting a lot BS like 10 garnets, 15 toxins, and one has you travel to Lake Calenhad, Denermin, Orzammar, and Redcliffe to set bombs up and if you don't want to let the bombs to set off, you must travel back again to destroy them. Annoying quest is annoying.

7.  Honestly, Origins lacked enviroment as well. Whole game lacked a feeling of having any people whatsoever. Denerim felt empty. Kirkwall lacks it too. Hopefully PC users will see the improved atmosphere mod for DA2. That mod made DAO come to life.

8. This I don't really care much about as others. I was never one to care what my companions look like. Makes more sense that the companions keep their own look while you control yourself.

9.There was junk in DAO as well. I was never able to carry all the stuff I looted through a run in the Brecillian Forest and often had to delete lesser items I looted. The one big thing here with DA2 is just looting all the armor gets so mundane as majority of it is pretty useless.

10. No opinion as of yet. I havn't finished the game yet. Yet I usually enjoy character development, so we'll see.

11. Although I havn't finished. There's choices that do have affect on the future.

12. No opinion as of yet.

13. I do agree here. The UI I feel is way weaker than Origins as it lacks the complexity. It just doesn't feel right.

This is just my take thus far. I do not feel DA2 is better than Origins at all as I'm one that really enjoys complexity in video games. Yet I'm still not going to enjoy a good RPG. Hell, changes between the two are not that huge in my opinion. If you want to see a way a company can screw up a decent game just look up Star Wars Galaxies.

Modifié par TehPear, 14 mars 2011 - 04:24 .


#223
Timtation

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Actually, DAO had more than just 3 decisions a lot of the time, more like 5 if I remember correctly, at least. Either way, they didn't shuffle you into either "GOOD, FUNNY, BAD" responses, which is infinitely better.

#224
Persephone

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Timtation wrote...

Actually, DAO had more than just 3 decisions a lot of the time, more like 5 if I remember correctly, at least. Either way, they didn't shuffle you into either "GOOD, FUNNY, BAD" responses, which is infinitely better.


Really? The whole THIS will GAIN you approval. THIS will NOT gain you anything. THIS will gain you disapproval mess is "better"? 

#225
Aesieru

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Some gain approval from the sarcasm / humor responses.