57 réponses à ce sujet

[Kemor]

Noviere wrote...
Of course he rose to power.

He went from a homeless refugee, to being one of the most influential people in the city.

And you as a player don't actually have any choice whatsoever in this...Which to me is very frustrating. You're FORCED to become this sort of lazy noble smuck in his "mansion", with his "mother". Then you're FORCED to wipe the floor with Qunaris in a way that makes you some kind of a Champion and you are FORCED to take side in something that has no relation with you whatsoever.

I don't really like the feeling of playing a power angry butthole for 30 hours....especially when it's not actually possible to do anything else...

He also set into motion a revolution that could topple the most powerful organization in all of Thedas.

Err, sorry? That's Anders. Logically, the name Hawke will never go beyond Kirkwall while Anders will most likely become THE symbol of the fight between mages and templars, which will surely shock the entire world.

[Tainan7509]

I heard from someone saying that EA push Bioware to rush out the product for cash. Maybe it is not true but if it is.. then i will be so mad!!!

[Kemor]

Noviere wrote...
This... I don't get. Each Act plays a role in setting up the final conclusion. Are you just upset that it wasn't one big single-minded quest? Would you have preferred Flemeth fly in, say that Meredith is going to destroy the world, and that you need to gather 4 items/people/armies so that you can confront her and have an epic boss fight?

I'm thrilled that for once, the Big Bad isn't the sole motivation for the story from start to finish.

No they don't. Each act could be totally taken out of any context and would still be totally fine, that's my point.

Meredith and the Qunari play NO ROLE whatsoever in the part 1
The Deep Road and Meredith play NO ROLE whatsoever in part 2
Qunari and the Deep Road play NO ROLE whatsoever in part 3

You do realize that part 3 is NOT about the relic right? That's just thrown in there because they wanted some kind of boss fight. She does NOT go against mages because of it and as a templar she is TOTALLY in her role, with no relic involvement whatsoever.

I would have LOVED for Flemeth to put some end goal right from the beginning, something that would actually made sense as of why my character was doing what he was doing and why it meant something.

As it is, not only you don't have any choices but you're part of nothing.

Part 1) The dwarves would have find the relic without you. You're just here for the cash.
Part 2) The Qunari would have wiped the floor with the city, then someone would have wiped them out (no reinforcement, just a question of time). I still don't know why I got involved in that to be honest and I still don't understand why the Viscount gave them a place to stay and didn't just gave them a frikkin boat.
Part 3) The conflict betwee Mages and Templars would have happened without your (Anders) AND Meredith would go on rampage because of the relic (which doesn't involve you either). I have NO IDEA why my character would get involved in that crapfest.What's his angle? How does that involve the character in any way, shape or form.

Try to do THAT in DA:O and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

[Nialos]

Anders will be remembered as the man who set the kindling. Hawke will be remembered as the one who lit the fire. Hawke chose a side - his/her choice had dire ramifications. One side feels hatred, the other sees a hero.

Sided with Mages: Hawke showed the world's mages that the Templars could be fought. And beaten. Meanwhile, the Templars see a monster who upset the natural balance.

I haven't done the Templar's side, but I bet it's pretty similar. Point is, Hawke didn't have to choose a side. But he did, and that's what he'll be remembered for. Which is really the 'main goal' of the game. Hawke's entire life within Kirkwall's events was all because of circumstance and the personal drive. Which is why it feels so... jumpy

Modifié par Nialos, 13 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Kemor]

Nialos wrote...

Anders will be remembered as the man who set the kindling. Hawke will be remembered as the one who lit the fire. Hawke chose a side - his/her choice had dire ramifications. One side feels hatred, the other sees a hero.

Sided with Mages: Hawke showed the world's mages that the Templars could be fought. And beaten. Meanwhile, the Templars see a monster who upset the natural balance.

I haven't done the Templar's side, but I bet it's pretty similar. Point is, Hawke didn't have to choose a side. But he did, and that's what he'll be remembered for.

Then again, we -were- forced to do so.

Hmm, I tried not to go with anyone but I went with Templars in the end because the mages were just going nutso.
As Hawke, I mean, he didn't kill mages, he killed abominations and blood mages. If you go templar you only kill a couple "normal" mages, 90% of what you fight are crazy blood mages and abominations, including the mage leader, who goes completely ape**** on you.

Also, once Darth Super Sayen Meredith is dead, only the normal templars are left and Cullen seemed like reasonable guy, quite cool mages and Circles of Magi as long as they don't go overboard. Not at all the style to make you some kind of Crusade's emblem or anything.

As for the mage side...Anders desintegrated an entire Chantry building, mother included! I haven't done the mage ending yet but there's no way Hawke can top that

[Nialos]

Haha, while true, Hawke still decided which side would have more 'power' in the end. If it weren't for Hawke, neither side would have a rallying cry.

Hawke isn't a hero solely because of achievement, but because of symbolism. Anders will just go down as the guy who shattered any hope of peace.

[Zyphone]

Kemor wrote...
Part 1) The dwarves would have find the relic without you. You're just here for the cash.

Your just here for the Cash yes, but without you and your team Bartrand would have never got to the Relic because the way is blocked, theres been a collapse. Also "The sidepassages are too dangerous".

Part 2) The Qunari would have wiped the floor with the city, then someone would have wiped them out (no reinforcement, just a question of time). I still don't know why I got involved in that to be honest and I still don't understand why the Viscount gave them a place to stay and didn't just gave them a frikkin boat.

The Viscount offered them loads of chances to leave, yet they remained because they wanted to the Relic back (Which is what Isabella is after throughout the whole game). Plus, if you weren't there nobody would have stood up to the Qunari apart from the obvious guards etc, and your connection with Isabela made them leave (On my playthrough anyway).

Part 3) The conflict betwee Mages and Templars would have happened without your (Anders) AND Meredith would go on rampage because of the relic (which doesn't involve you either). I have NO IDEA why my character would get involved in that crapfest.What's his angle? How does that involve the character in any way, shape or form.

Your correct on this one, Anders would have destroyed the Chantry started a big war which puts the mages at blame because of him. Meredith has gone semi-insane because of the Relic but then again, nobody would have known who would have won, the Circle or the Templars.

[Kemor]

Zyphone wrote...

Kemor wrote...
Part 1) The dwarves would have find the relic without you. You're just here for the cash.

Your just here for the Cash yes, but without you and your team Bartrand would have never got to the Relic because the way is blocked, theres been a collapse. Also "The sidepassages are too dangerous".

Part 2) The Qunari would have wiped the floor with the city, then someone would have wiped them out (no reinforcement, just a question of time). I still don't know why I got involved in that to be honest and I still don't understand why the Viscount gave them a place to stay and didn't just gave them a frikkin boat.

The Viscount offered them loads of chances to leave, yet they remained because they wanted to the Relic back (Which is what Isabella is after throughout the whole game). Plus, if you weren't there nobody would have stood up to the Qunari apart from the obvious guards etc, and your connection with Isabela made them leave (On my playthrough anyway).

Part 3) The conflict betwee Mages and Templars would have happened without your (Anders) AND Meredith would go on rampage because of the relic (which doesn't involve you either). I have NO IDEA why my character would get involved in that crapfest.What's his angle? How does that involve the character in any way, shape or form.

Your correct on this one, Anders would have destroyed the Chantry started a big war which puts the mages at blame because of him. Meredith has gone semi-insane because of the Relic but then again, nobody would have known who would have won, the Circle or the Templars.

Awww, I feel like a real hero now

[Trobon18]

I liked the fact that the game was not as epic in scale personally. Don't get me wrong, I love the epic scope of DA:O, but I don't feel like every game should be stopping the blight. I really thought that the writing team did a great job making someone who was not the Savior of Fereldan feel like an important character in their own right.

[StargazerUK]

BiowarEA wrote...

The game seems like a skeleton ready for the meat that is DLC.

Would not supprise me at all. ME2 was a prime example of that bioware was going that way.

As far as I am aware Mass Effect and Dragon Age had DLC developed after a complete game was put out.

ME2 and obviously now Dragon Age 2 is Develop a full game but not sold as a full game.
 
What bioware seem to be doing is putting out enough of the game to keep people happy and sell one peice of the remaining content over a monthly period if possible.

[Kemor]

Trobon18 wrote...

I liked the fact that the game was not as epic in scale personally. Don't get me wrong, I love the epic scope of DA:O, but I don't feel like every game should be stopping the blight. I really thought that the writing team did a great job making someone who was not the Savior of Fereldan feel like an important character in their own right.

Fair enough, to each his own I guess

I do believe however that this could have been written to create more overall involvement in a particular story, and more choices about the outcome. I really didn't feel any point to any of the actions the main character had to do, nor any real consequences/changes.

- "Things gonna happen, do you want coke or diet coke?"
- "Coke"
- "Here you are, oh, and things happened. Now, you want a slice of lemon?"

Modifié par Kemor, 13 mars 2011 - 11:18 .

[freddfx]

Wissenschaft wrote...

The big disconnect for a lot of people is that Hawke is "not the chosen by fate, savior of the world" that you almost always play in video games. Hes just a made trying to rebuild his family's name in kirkwall and along that way he happens to become champion and makes some important decisions that impact the fate of the city.

This is no where near as epic sounding as say, your one of the last wardens and you must raise and army and destroy a great blighted dragon to stop an apocalypse.

I for one find it refreshing to not have to save the world since its a done to death story hook.

I dont think its the fact that the hero isn't fated to recuse the world... its the fact that the story has serious flaws in making the player care about the plight of our protaganist... we can hardly interact with companions.. in fact theres more banter than actual initiated conversation. It just so happens that in "epic fate" stories you see the ultimate goal and then it becomes more about the journey there... versus here where the goalss are unclear and unknown until you reach them really... but this wouldn't be such a huge problem if it were set up in a way to where we can care about Hawk, his/her family and companions. Instead as the OP suggested, this felt like (overpriced) DLC, not terrible, but unfinished parts of a whole that even when combined still feel incomplete and dare i say rather empty. 

[Sinvx]

Kemor wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

The big disconnect for a lot of people is that Hawke is "not the chosen by fate, savior of the world" that you almost always play in video games. Hes just a made trying to rebuild his family's name in kirkwall and along that way he happens to become champion and makes some important decisions that impact the fate of the city.

This is no where near as epic sounding as say, your one of the last wardens and you must raise and army and destroy a great blighted dragon to stop an apocalypse.

I for one find it refreshing to not have to save the world since its a done to death story hook.

Well this is fine and dandy when you have normal people in the story.

But at this end there, I probably could wipe out the ENTIRE darkspawn invasion from DA:O without breaking a sweat, while wasting the Dragon with my left hand. Do you realize the number of people and most of all demons you actually kill during DA2? It's insane. Unlike DA:O I don't have exact numbers but without a doubt it's 4 or 5 times more.

You simply cannot put THIS kind of power into play if you're not going for an INSANELY epic story, it makes no sense whatsoever.


And I mean...last boss? Duh. At least in DA:O you anticipated that damn last fight for 40+ hours. Here, you just "solved" a problem and out of nowhere the **** goes crazy, for reasons COMPLETELY unrelated to whatever you just did for 30 hours? What's the frikking point.

Right... Because Meredith buying the evil tainted lyrium idol didn't contribute to her going crazy at all... Nope, it didn't. Clearly you weren't paying attention to the storyline.

"Hawke is a loser because he became champion of a city, while the warden saved the whole world..." Right... Cause Orlais didn't have 200 wardens + Orlesian army on stand by to deal with the blight if they failed... Our warden was Hero of Ferelden not the world, and our Hero was no more special then any other Warden.

While Hawke on the other hand... Either an Apostate mage, or some lowly soldier running from Ostagar, gets to Kirkwall, builds up his wealth and fame from nothing. Triggers events that throws the entire Continent of Thedas in chaos, where mages all around are rebelling. DA2 isn't about Hawke being champion, this is about what he set in motion.

Amazing... Just amazing at how simple you guys can be... Absolutely oblivious to big picture of DA2.

Modifié par Sinvx, 13 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[Sinvx]

freddfx wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

The big disconnect for a lot of people is that Hawke is "not the chosen by fate, savior of the world" that you almost always play in video games. Hes just a made trying to rebuild his family's name in kirkwall and along that way he happens to become champion and makes some important decisions that impact the fate of the city.

This is no where near as epic sounding as say, your one of the last wardens and you must raise and army and destroy a great blighted dragon to stop an apocalypse.

I for one find it refreshing to not have to save the world since its a done to death story hook.

I dont think its the fact that the hero isn't fated to recuse the world... its the fact that the story has serious flaws in making the player care about the plight of our protaganist... we can hardly interact with companions.. in fact theres more banter than actual initiated conversation. It just so happens that in "epic fate" stories you see the ultimate goal and then it becomes more about the journey there... versus here where the goalss are unclear and unknown until you reach them really... but this wouldn't be such a huge problem if it were set up in a way to where we can care about Hawk, his/her family and companions. Instead as the OP suggested, this felt like (overpriced) DLC, not terrible, but unfinished parts of a whole that even when combined still feel incomplete and dare i say rather empty. 

Comes down to opinion, how much you were drawn in. A lot of people including me were drawn in, and were absolutely devistated by how Hawkes mother died, and how you lose your family 1 by 1. I cared a great deal, about my Hawke, more so then my Warden. Like I said though, comes down to opinion. 


You didn't care, I did.

[Zyphone]

Tainan7509 wrote...

I heard from someone saying that EA push Bioware to rush out the product for cash. Maybe it is not true but if it is.. then i will be so mad!!!

Most likely the truth, because I know EA's fiscal year ends in April. They probably wanted this out of the way before then, to make way for Star Wars The Old Republic, Mass Effect 3, and enough DLC for DA2 to keep us happy til DA3.

[Sinvx]

Kemor wrote...

Noviere wrote...
Of course he rose to power.

He went from a homeless refugee, to being one of the most influential people in the city.

And you as a player don't actually have any choice whatsoever in this...Which to me is very frustrating. You're FORCED to become this sort of lazy noble smuck in his "mansion", with his "mother". Then you're FORCED to wipe the floor with Qunaris in a way that makes you some kind of a Champion and you are FORCED to take side in something that has no relation with you whatsoever.

I don't really like the feeling of playing a power angry butthole for 30 hours....especially when it's not actually possible to do anything else...

He also set into motion a revolution that could topple the most powerful organization in all of Thedas.

Err, sorry? That's Anders. Logically, the name Hawke will never go beyond Kirkwall while Anders will most likely become THE symbol of the fight between mages and templars, which will surely shock the entire world.

1. You're champion because you resolved the issue with the Qunari that threw Kirkwall in chaos, they killed the viscount and were about to kill everyone else, you stopped that.

2. You're champion, your role is that of heavy influence, where you have certain duties to fulfill 

But meh, same thing could be said about DA:O.

I didn't want to become a Warden, but I had too. I didn't want to fight the hordes of Darkspawn to kill the Archedemon, and build up a army, but I was forced too... Even though I was given the dialogue choice to suggest me and Alistar run off to Orlais to find other Wardens(Which would of been fun). I was forced to do a lot of things in DA:O even when I had dialogue options that would make me think otherwise.

As for Hawkes name not going beyond Kirkwall, I lol at you again... I mean it's not like the Chantry of Thedas isn't looking for him or anything, for putting the Chantry on the brink of war, and causing chaos throughout Thedas(don't know how many times I need to say this...).

[Zyphone]

Sinvx wrote...
Comes down to opinion, how much you were drawn in. A lot of people including me were drawn in, and were absolutely devistated by how Hawkes mother died, and how you lose your family 1 by 1. I cared a great deal, about my Hawke, more so then my Warden. Like I said though, comes down to opinion. 


You didn't care, I did.

Ditto, I was shocked by the Mother's death, especially on my first run through, I lost Bethany, then lost your Mother soon after.

Oh, and can anyone tell me what movie or anime that reminds me of with the whole chopping people up and creating someone else. I swear theres a movie/anime that gave me the same shock.

[Osena109]

 I like the under dog story  its  like a Boxer that went form nothing and took  on  people that were better then him in every way and found a way to win  that is message i got form DA2 i liked it

[LegionLG]

Wissenschaft wrote...

The big disconnect for a lot of people is that Hawke is "not the chosen by fate, savior of the world" that you almost always play in video games. Hes just a made trying to rebuild his family's name in kirkwall and along that way he happens to become champion and makes some important decisions that impact the fate of the city.

This is no where near as epic sounding as say, your one of the last wardens and you must raise and army and destroy a great blighted dragon to stop an apocalypse.

I for one find it refreshing to not have to save the world since its a done to death story hook.

That's not true. Baldur's Gate II (not the ToB part) was only about saving your companion and getting after the guy who tortured you, and it still felt epic as hell. Even the first game was only about killing the guy who murdered your foster father. Neither of them are about saving the world, and they are held in such reverence and seen as having amazing and satisfying storytelling.

I mention that because DA2's story is more personal than Origins, but it still doesn't have a satisfying personal story like the personal stories in the Baldur's Gate series.

Back on topic, a big thing that I think contributed to the "disconnected" feeling was the lack of a long-term goal. You really never understand what it is, exactly, that you're doing. The storyline could have been much better if it was reinforced way earlier on that you will be personally involved in the heat between the mages and templars. It would be better to have Bethany/mage Hawke have some horribly violent incident with the templars and Meredith (or something to that effect) so that we are emotionally invested in that drama, rather than just one brief cutscene where Bethany is suddenly taken away by the templars and forgotten about.

The point is, the fact that there is no clear sense of purpose early in the story really makes you just wander about doing quests with a severely lacking idea of what this story is really about. In Baldur's Gate it was clear from the beginning that Sarevok was your enemy, and Irenicus in BG2, and Malak in KOTOR, Saren in Mass Effect, the darkspawn in Origins (whatever that means; it's not really clear that it's the Archdemon you're after from the get-go, and I was never really happy with the lack of buildup with the Archdemon as well), and the Collectors in ME2.

Now, we're all smart individuals and we secretly know in the back of our heads that we're going to have to face Meredith at some point. There is enough mention of her and her zealotry throughout the game for us to recognize an endgame enemy. However, she's just a character that is suddenly and awkwardly thrust upon us at the end of Act 2 and a person we briefly interact with in Act 3. It's not clear until she turns into Regan MacNeil that she's actually the end boss (throughout the entire game I was like, "Okay, Flemeth or Morrigan are going to suddenly appear and start something, right?")

That was actually a main point that, while I always publicly supported it, made me skeptical about DA2 as it neared release. I always spoke to one of my friends about how I have "no idea what DA2's about." Now that I finished it, I still kind of don't. I mean, it's about... Qunari and some crazy mage and a crazy templar. If I hadn't told you that, you wouldn't have known until you were close to finishing the game. It certainly doesn't help to have such vague plot summaries as, "determine your rise to power."

And on that point, I also want to mention that it's kind of disappointing that it seemed like Bioware didn't want to step on religious people's toes by backing off on some potentially amazing religious commentary at the very last second. It went from, "Meredith is a typical religious zealot who is absolutely insane and poisonous to society," to, "Oh, no, she wouldn't have done any of this if she wasn't corrupted by all that naughty lyrium." No intriguing societal commentary at all. Sad day.

That all being said, I love every other Bioware game, and I hope that this will just ultimately serve as a lesson to them so that every other future product is that much better.

[Kemor]

Sinvx wrote...

Right... Because Meredith buying the evil tainted lyrium idol didn't contribute to her going crazy at all... Nope, it didn't. Clearly you weren't paying attention to the storyline.

It was clear from almost..hmm..30 minutes into the game I think, that Meredith was a tough one against mages. With everything happening in Kirkwall over the years and the amount of Blood mages EVERYWHERE, well, I'm sorry but it's almost THE only logical action as a Templar at that point. Heck, I AM sympathetic to mages and EVEN I wanted to kill them all!
Sure she's tough, sure she hates mages, but everything she does is logical without any relic involvement, just regular case of a human being overzealous. I mean Petrice was nuts crazy, and no relic involved.

As for the relic, Oh yea..I missed the 2 minutes 30 seconds of actual mention of this in the ENTIRE GAME! Big storyline! You got a quick one for 20 seconds in Deep Roads. Then Quick mention with Varric and the house..and..that's pretty much it. Then suddenly: VOILA! Super Sayen Darth Meredith flying through the air with some FFIX sword and red eyes...

"Hawke is a loser because he became champion of a city, while the warden saved the whole world..." Right... Cause Orlais didn't have 200 wardens + Orlesian army on stand by to deal with the blight if they failed... Our warden was Hero of Ferelden not the world, and our Hero was no more special then any other Warden.

Totally agree but being in a Warden in itself is..quite something isn't it. Plus he's in the very middle of it right from the get go and it's clear that there are no other Wardens around and that ONLY a Warden can do what needs to be done and Allistair just doesn't have what it takes during most of the story, too much doubts.

While Hawke on the other hand... Either an Apostate mage, or some lowly soldier running from Ostagar, gets to Kirkwall, builds up his wealth and fame from nothing. Triggers events that throws the entire Continent of Thedas in chaos, where mages all around are rebelling. DA2 isn't about Hawke being champion, this is about what he set in motion.

Great, he makes a buck by pillaging some Thaig and murdering people for money! And you don't have any choice in that since there is no other way to get the money but to murder people you know nothing about.

As for the events, he had NOTHING to do with it.
I didn't give a rat about the Qunari, only did their quest because I couldn't move on otherwise, and was a punk to them all the way, including that stupid Saemus. The Qun..geesh.
The I see Isabella running off every time I went to them and of course, realize that she's the one who stole the book from them, but have to wait hours later to be able to confront her with that. Then I'm, AGAIN, forced to handle Qunaris for some reason, I blow them off every chance I get hoping I can just kill that Varishok, but noooo, I'm FORCED to flee from 20 guys while I totally lay waste to 30 of them couple minutes later but only after I let them torched the city apparently at will...because you know..I like the smell of innocent citizens when the moon is clear...

Then the mages and tempalrs...Nothing you do makes Anders do what he does, which IS the trigger. Even if Hawke was NEVER in Kirkwall, Anders would still do what he does. I never talked to Anders but for the maps (and mission for it), never partied with him otherwise, never did his story quests or whatever. Then suddenly at the end that moron blows the Chantry and the entire world is at war? Then I'm FORCED to pick a side in a conflict that has NOTHING to do with me!

And of course, being the totally overpowered greedy and murdering bastard that I am, I pretty much kill everyone in sight...Then people call me Champion? What the...

The relic have almost zero impact on the story.
The Qunari would have attacked anyway and of course lost in the end.
Anders would started the war.

Hawke? Well..

Amazing... Just amazing at how simple you guys can be... Absolutely oblivious to big picture of DA2.

Oh, I see the big picture....


..I just don't get why I was there 

Modifié par Kemor, 14 mars 2011 - 12:25 .

[Sinvx]

Kemor wrote...

Sinvx wrote...

Right... Because Meredith buying the evil tainted lyrium idol didn't contribute to her going crazy at all... Nope, it didn't. Clearly you weren't paying attention to the storyline.

It was clear from almost..hmm..30 minutes into the game I think, that Meredith was a tough one against mages. With everything happening in Kirkwall over the years and the amount of Blood mages EVERYWHERE, well, I'm sorry but it's almost THE only logical action as a Templar at that point. Heck, I AM sympathetic to mages and EVEN I wanted to kill them all!
Sure she's tough, sure she hates mages, but everything she does is logical without any relic involvement, just regular case of a human being overzealous. I mean Petrice was nuts crazy, and no relic involved.

As for the relic, Oh yea..I missed the 2 minutes 30 seconds of actual mention of this in the ENTIRE GAME! Big storyline! You got a quick one for 20 seconds in Deep Roads. Then Quick mention with Varric and the house..and..that's pretty much it. Then suddenly: VOILA! Super Sayen Darth Meredith flying through the air with some FFIX sword and red eyes...

"Hawke is a loser because he became champion of a city, while the warden saved the whole world..." Right... Cause Orlais didn't have 200 wardens + Orlesian army on stand by to deal with the blight if they failed... Our warden was Hero of Ferelden not the world, and our Hero was no more special then any other Warden.

Totally agree but being in a Warden in itself is..quite something isn't it. Plus he's in the very middle of it right from the get go and it's clear that there are no other Wardens around and that ONLY a Warden can do what needs to be done and Allistair just doesn't have what it takes during most of the story, too much doubts.

While Hawke on the other hand... Either an Apostate mage, or some lowly soldier running from Ostagar, gets to Kirkwall, builds up his wealth and fame from nothing. Triggers events that throws the entire Continent of Thedas in chaos, where mages all around are rebelling. DA2 isn't about Hawke being champion, this is about what he set in motion.

Great, he makes a buck by pillaging some Thaig and murdering people for money! And you don't have any choice in that since there is no other way to get the money but to murder people you know nothing about.

As for the events, he had NOTHING to do with it.
I didn't give a rat about the Qunari, only did their quest because I couldn't move on otherwise, and was a punk to them all the way, including that stupid Saemus. The Qun..geesh.
The I see Isabella running off every time I went to them and of course, realize that she's the one who stole the book from them, but have to wait hours later to be able to confront her with that. Then I'm, AGAIN, forced to handle Qunaris for some reason, I blow them off every chance I get hoping I can just kill that Varishok, but noooo, I'm FORCED to flee from 20 guys while I totally lay waste to 30 of them couple minutes later but only after I let them torched the city apparently at will...because you know..I like the smell of innocent citizens when the moon is clear...

Then the mages and tempalrs...Nothing you do makes Anders do what he does, which IS the trigger. Even if Hawke was NEVER in Kirkwall, Anders would still do what he does. I never talked to Anders but for the maps (and mission for it), never partied with him otherwise, never did his story quests or whatever. Then suddenly at the end that moron blows the Chantry and the entire world is at war? Then I'm FORCED to pick a side in a conflict that has NOTHING to do with me!

And of course, being the totally overpowered greedy and murdering bastard that I am, I pretty much kill everyone in sight...Then people call me Champion? What the...

Amazing... Just amazing at how simple you guys can be... Absolutely oblivious to big picture of DA2.

Oh, I see the big picture....


..I just don't get why I was there 

First of all, Meredith wasn't all that bad at the start. There was some over zealous Templars who wanted to crush mages absolutely. But Grand Cleric and Knight-Commander Meredith rejected it(Found a letter off the templar that stated this). Meredith later on bought the evil idol from Varrics brother which slowly corrupted her, which lead to harsher treatmeants to mages. Things were bad before but not as bad.


Also for the Qunari... You aren't "FORCED" to fight them all, only the ones until you get to the Keep. Then you have choices to continue... You can hand Isabella over, and give the Relic to the Arishok, and he leaves with the Qunari. You can refuse to hand over Isabella but give them the relic, and fight the Arishock in a duel for Isabella. Or you can not give the Relic and fight them all.

Those are your choices for the Qunari..

As for Templar/Mage thing, several things come to play, the lyrium idol, which you found ends up with Meredith, and corrupts her. Your involvement with Anders. There are so many little things and big things that point towards your involvement. You may disagree but everything you do shapes the outcome.

Modifié par Sinvx, 14 mars 2011 - 12:30 .

[Kemor]

Sinvx wrote...
First of all, Meredith wasn't all that bad at the start. There was some over zealous Templars who wanted to crush mages absolutely. But Grand Cleric and Knight-Commander Meredith rejected it(Found a letter off the templar that stated this). Meredith later on bought the evil idol from Varrics brother which slowly corrupted her, which lead to harsher treatmeants to mages. Things were bad before but not as bad.

I agree that the Relic fueled her zealous side, like it seemed to have fueled (sp?)Barthan's greed. But you got to agree that after Anders' actions, the protests AND the insane amount of blood mages running amock, it's logical for Templars to go a bit overboard? The right of annulment is a bit extreme but Orsino DID in fact summon some insane stuff, proving Meredith, even "relic fueled", right. Without some over powered "hero" to kill it, that thing would have wiped half the city if not more.

Also for the Qunari... You aren't "FORCED" to fight them all, only the ones until you get to the Keep. Then you have choices to continue... You can hand Isabella over, and give the Relic to the Arishok, and he leaves with the Qunari. You can refuse to hand over Isabella but give them the relic, and fight the Arishock in a duel for Isabella. Or you can not give the Relic and fight them all.
Those are your choices.

Oh yea, sorry, I killed them all but for the 12 in the last room, I got a choice, my bad

Now, don't tell me you're still considered the Champion if you actually let them go. I mean, you've seen the amount of dead citizens outside right? And hand over Isabella? I mean, they just torched the entire city for no reason (logical reason, don't mention the Qun please), you hand them Isabella AND the relic, then you let them go freely, and you're still a Champion?
If so this proves my point even more that nothing you do matters.

Modifié par Kemor, 14 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[Greetz_DK]

I blame the Fable-esque approach to time. The you-sit-down-and-years-pass-without-anything-happening thing.

[Sinvx]

Kemor wrote...

Sinvx wrote...
First of all, Meredith wasn't all that bad at the start. There was some over zealous Templars who wanted to crush mages absolutely. But Grand Cleric and Knight-Commander Meredith rejected it(Found a letter off the templar that stated this). Meredith later on bought the evil idol from Varrics brother which slowly corrupted her, which lead to harsher treatmeants to mages. Things were bad before but not as bad.

I agree that the Relic fueled her zealous side, like it seemed to have fueled (sp?)Barthan's greed. But you got to agree that after Anders' actions, the protests AND the insane amount of blood mages running amock, it's logical for Templars to go a bit overboard? The right of annulment is a bit extreme but Orsino DID in fact summon some insane stuff, proving Meredith, even "relic fueled", right. Without some over powered "hero" to kill it, that thing would have wiped half the city if not more.

Also for the Qunari... You aren't "FORCED" to fight them all, only the ones until you get to the Keep. Then you have choices to continue... You can hand Isabella over, and give the Relic to the Arishok, and he leaves with the Qunari. You can refuse to hand over Isabella but give them the relic, and fight the Arishock in a duel for Isabella. Or you can not give the Relic and fight them all.
Those are your choices.

Oh yea, sorry, I killed them all but for the 12 in the last room, I got a choice, my bad

Now, don't tell me you're still considered the Champion if you actually let them go. I mean, you've seen the amount of dead citizens outside right? And hand over Isabella? I mean, they just torched the entire city for no reason (logical reason, don't mention the Qun please), you hand them Isabella AND the relic, then you let them go freely, and you're still a Champion?
If so this proves my point even more that nothing you do matters.

I let them all go, by handing over Isabella. You become champion by putting an end to the crisis I think. Doesn't have to be bloody. I also agree with the first part in your post, which is why I am siding with Templars my second play through.

Modifié par Sinvx, 14 mars 2011 - 12:47 .

[Kemor]

Sinvx wrote...

I let them all go, by handing over Isabella. You become champion by putting an end to the crisis I think. Doesn't have to be bloody. I also agree with the first part in your post, which is why I am siding with Templars my second play through.

Ah yes, the good old solution: The human sacrifice to make bad demons go away.

So heroic

Anyway, veering off topic.