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Grey Wardens - Morals or No?


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#1
RazorrX

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From what I have read, a bulk of the community seems to think the Grey Warden motto is to win by any method. This includes using Blood Magic, etc.
In game the player is never taught what it really means to be a Grey Warden. You are young, and thrust into an almost impossible situation. There was no training, no mentorship, nothing. So I can see where the PC could step to the darkside more and more in an effort to win by any means (not the true GW philosophy). Al is not exactly a good GW Mentor, he does not know much about being a GW at all. I doubt he was actually supposed to be a GW. Duncan probably thought that he would be immune to taint like his mother, and brought him into the wardens to save him from a life as a templar. SO I have no problem with players who have taken those paths, as that is the story for that person, BUT my issue is . . . what are the Grey Wardens Actually?

From what I have gotten from the books and such is that Grey Wardens exist to defend the world from the blight. The blight was created by Demonology and Blood Magic (according to the Chantry). The Grey Wardens converted to the Chantry, so the Grey Wardens follow the teachings of the Chantry (Was in the Collectors Guide I picked up). They are considered honorable, revered as heroes, etc.

In the Calling it mentions burning cities to the ground, etc. but that is not something that is totally over the top. If a city is overrun, burning it is the best option to slow down the spread. The people are lost, the war there is lost, best to burn it down to slow your enemy so that you can defeat him later. However it made it clear by the end that there were some lines that they do not cross. The whole reason that so many of that group of wardens were accepting of things was because the amulet and taint corrupting the way they thought. It was the 3 strongest willed and/or less tainted who rebelled at the end. They rebelled because the Grey Wardens are supposed to protect the world.

In Wardens Peak you learn the tale of Wardens gone bad. The Commander was NEVER a true Grey Warden. She joined the Wardens to escape being put to death. She used her position from the beginning to further her own plans. She used any and every power she could to gain revenge. The use of demonology, blood magic, etc. was totally against (or seemed to be) the Grey Warden code.

So the warden code is: In War – Victory, In Peace – Vigilance, In Death – Sacrifice.
In War – Victory – Victory by accepted means. Victory by martial prowess, tactics, etc. These are what Grey Wardens are known for. Sten tells you this. Wynne tells you how your life is one of sacrifice and duty to protect.
In Peace – Vigilance – Always making sure the darkspawn are not a threat, maintaining training, etc. No problem. (Although it seems Duncan was not into that part that much as Al was never trained in the years he was with Duncan prior to the PC being recruited during the beginning of the blight)
In Death – Sacrifice – got told that one the hard way. That is a noble end for a person. That is a truly hard thing to take on. That is not the kind of person who uses Blood Magic, etc.

So do the Grey Wardens actually have an Honor Code / Morals? If not, why are they held in such high esteem?

Modifié par RazorrX, 16 novembre 2009 - 04:59 .


#2
BluesMan1956

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Because they defeated the first Blight?

#3
The Angry One

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Correction: They defeat every Blight.
I don't see why morality has anything to do with this, heroes and legends are not based on morality. If they were, society wouldn't revere figures like Julius Caesar.

Modifié par The Angry One, 16 novembre 2009 - 05:03 .


#4
Wintermist

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Probably because they got the job done. Without them, would there be anything left? They aren't angels, that's for sure.

#5
javierabegazo

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I think that ofcourse they have an honor code, but that must be applied liberally to the country/ world as a whole. If a town is infected with the taint, it has to be contained, i.e. everyone who is tainted must perish, to prevent the spread. But Sophia in the Warden's Keep I don't really consider a Grey Warden, She was something of a renegade, that used her status to snatch for power and control, abusing it. If this weren't dark fantasy, I would hope one of the other Warden's seeing the path she's on, would cut her down, for her treachery

#6
FlintlockJazz

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Because they won, that is the only reason. As it is shown alot ingame, the people of Thedas seem to only care if you are the victor or not, and if you are then everything else will be changed to make you into the champion. Duncan butchered Jorey because he refused to drink from the cup, what did that achieve other than to make Duncan look like a ****?

#7
BluesMan1956

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I know we're stepping out of game philosophy, but...

This is a gameplay issue. Such a creed gives the player a certain broad lattitude to play the game as desired

#8
RazorrX

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YEah that is what I think, but I keep seeing so many people saying they do anything it takes.



They converted as a WHOLE to the Chantry. Blood Magic, etc. is seen by the Chantry as the most vile of evil. I got the impression that if the other GW had known about Sophia she would have been put down like a rabid dog.

#9
javierabegazo

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Because they won, that is the only reason. As it is shown alot ingame, the people of Thedas seem to only care if you are the victor or not, and if you are then everything else will be changed to make you into the champion. Duncan butchered Jorey because he refused to drink from the cup, what did that achieve other than to make Duncan look like a ****?


They cannot find out about the ritual and escape. Upon being accepted as a recruit, there wasn't any going back. And this has already been talked about in length, Duncan HAD to kill Jorey. In the codex you find that a long time ago a grey warden master was killed by a recruit in the same situation, after experiencing the horror of the taint. Jorey could not be allowed to escape with that knowledge. The fact that Grey Wardens are infected with the taint must be kept a secret. 

#10
The Angry One

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If you talk to Duncan in the mage origin about blood magic, Duncan says he's not against it's use against the Blight as all other considerations are basically forfiet in the face of an enemy that will destroy absolutely everything.
He advises caution in it's use, and to not revel in it's power or think there is no danger associated with it, but he stronglty disagrees with the Chantry's rigid policies.

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Because they won, that is the only reason. As it is shown alot ingame, the people of Thedas seem to only care if you are the victor or not, and if you are then everything else will be changed to make you into the champion. Duncan butchered Jorey because he refused to drink from the cup, what did that achieve other than to make Duncan look like a ****?


Not this again.
You know what? Even if there was no secret to keep, which there was, I will say again: Jory drew steel first. The end.
Even today if a soldier pulls a gun on their commanding officer they're likely to get shot and killed. This is exactly what Jory did. Well minus the guns.

#11
LastMurder

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Grey wardens save lives, that's why they are revered.



If you're looking for a moral code, look no further than Grey Wardens giving up on their lives to fight the blight, the great enemy of everything in the world.

#12
RazorrX

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

Because they won, that is the only reason. As it is shown alot ingame, the people of Thedas seem to only care if you are the victor or not, and if you are then everything else will be changed to make you into the champion. Duncan butchered Jorey because he refused to drink from the cup, what did that achieve other than to make Duncan look like a ****?


At that point, it was a time of open war.  The Blight was here.  All 3 recruits were told CLEARLY that there was NO turning back at that point.  That it was no longer an option.  You could die by the campfire or take the joining, but no leaving.  Totally okay within the thinking.

Notice Duncan did not Break out some Blood Magic or summon a Demon to eat Jory's head.

#13
javierabegazo

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The Angry One wrote...


Not this again.
You know what? Even if there was no secret to keep, which there was, I will say again: Jory drew steel first. The end.
Even today if a soldier pulls a gun on their commanding officer they're likely to get shot and killed. This is exactly what Jory did. Well minus the guns.


Absolutely, Jorey was the aggresor here

#14
The Angry One

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RazorrX wrote...

YEah that is what I think, but I keep seeing so many people saying they do anything it takes.

They converted as a WHOLE to the Chantry. Blood Magic, etc. is seen by the Chantry as the most vile of evil. I got the impression that if the other GW had known about Sophia she would have been put down like a rabid dog.


They pay lip-service to the Chantry, but the Chantry's obnoxiously rigid rules are for Templars, not Grey Wardens.
Even the Chantry itself is divided, the Tevinter Chantry for example allows mages more freedom and to dabble in politics, becoming Magisters and Archons again, much to the anger of the original Chantry.

#15
Walina

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Wait! Are you sure about Alistair being imune ? I know someone said he could have been the son of a grey warden and Maric but he wasn't sure, he read that in the book.

I it's true then Alistair dying is : writers of the game failed or the authr of the book failed O_o

Beside that, it's true that there is someone choice like becoming a blood mage but it has no impact on the story so it doesn't count like other stuffs.

Modifié par Walina, 16 novembre 2009 - 05:13 .


#16
RazorrX

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Allistars mother was an elven Mage Named Fiona. Fiona was a Grey Warden and by the End of the calling you find out that she has become immune to the taint. It is possible that her immunity is carried by her child.

#17
The Angry One

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That would seem to contradict events in the game.

In the case where the books contradict the game, the game wins though.

#18
Wintermist

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And either way, he's drunk the blood too right? So he's immune one way or another. Unless he never drank it, of course.

#19
Niveneh

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Was Duncan good? He killed Dareth and Jory as surely as if he gave them poison himself... which he actually did. Allready at that point he crossed the 'at any cost' line. Yes, there was a chance they would survive, but in some joinings, there are NO survivors.



I do suspect that initiation, and for that matter behavior, can vary very much from group to group, place to place. Some are likely to be a far more 'codified' group than Duncan's rather ragtag gang.



So the answer will have to be 'It depends.'.


#20
RazorrX

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Again I am totally okay with payers doing blood magic, etc. because Bioware had to allow people to be evil, etc.



What I am wondering about (and hope for a BW response) is if the GW follow that mentality, or if they actually do draw the line in the sand.

#21
The Angry One

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Wintermist wrote...

And either way, he's drunk the blood too right? So he's immune one way or another. Unless he never drank it, of course.


No, the taint stays with you and gets to you in some 30 years after becoming a Grey Warden.
Well unless you dabble in dirty, dirty blood magic like Avernus.

#22
RazorrX

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Wintermist wrote...

And either way, he's drunk the blood too right? So he's immune one way or another. Unless he never drank it, of course.


IF He is Immune, he can drink, feel the darkspawn, etc. but he will never undergo the calling.

#23
The Angry One

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RazorrX wrote...

Again I am totally okay with payers doing blood magic, etc. because Bioware had to allow people to be evil, etc.

What I am wondering about (and hope for a BW response) is if the GW follow that mentality, or if they actually do draw the line in the sand.


Duncan flat out says they don't follow Chantry rules.
Don't know how it can be any clearer, he's the leader in Ferelden after all.

#24
Wintermist

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RazorrX wrote...

Again I am totally okay with payers doing blood magic, etc. because Bioware had to allow people to be evil, etc.

What I am wondering about (and hope for a BW response) is if the GW follow that mentality, or if they actually do draw the line in the sand.


From what I understand; They will be good until the point where being good does not defeat darkspawn. Because if they can not defeat the darkspawn, the darkspawn will destroy civilization and life. Kill 1000 people to say the world? Yes. Kill 1000 people for no reason? No.

#25
The Angry One

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RazorrX wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

And either way, he's drunk the blood too right? So he's immune one way or another. Unless he never drank it, of course.


IF He is Immune, he can drink, feel the darkspawn, etc. but he will never undergo the calling.


That makes no sense.
How can you hear the darkspawn and be immune to the taint when it's part of the taint?
Not to mention he isn't immune to the effect of killing the archdemon.

Man I'm glad I didn't read the books.