78 réponses à ce sujet

[tkaz85]

The only line I can sense (having not read the books) is using one evil to defeat another. This is what makes demonology forbidden, as the choice between demons and darkspawn really isn't a choice at all. Everything else is permissible, and I would argue that under certain circumstances some blood magic would be permissible as well (not the stuff that Avernus did though). Being a Grey Warden means that everything-honor, justice, mercy, revenge, etc. is secondary to defeating the darkspawn. Sophia Dryden failed to grasp this and it resulted in the destruction of the Wardens in Ferelden. Becoming a Warden is much like joining the Legion of the Dead, as both involve leaving your old life behind completely. Even my own Human Noble allowed feelings of revenge to briefly overtake his commitment against the Blight, however he was fortunate in that both obligations led to the same result: Howe's death.

[The Angry One]

By the way, why is blood magic = evil?

Good players can be blood mages too. Blood magic can be *dangerous* but not evil.

It's only evil because the Chantry says so. And the Chantry is full of crap anyway.

[javierabegazo]

The Angry One wrote...

By the way, why is blood magic = evil?
Good players can be blood mages too. Blood magic can be *dangerous* but not evil.
It's only evil because the Chantry says so. And the Chantry is full of crap anyway.

I think it's just because Blood Magic has incredible potential for power, and that it easily corrupts, that Demons have easier time breaking the veil to possess a user. Just look at what happened to the Circle of Magi

[RazorrX]

The Angry One wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

And either way, he's drunk the blood too right? So he's immune one way or another. Unless he never drank it, of course.

IF He is Immune, he can drink, feel the darkspawn, etc. but he will never undergo the calling.

That makes no sense.
How can you hear the darkspawn and be immune to the taint when it's part of the taint?
Not to mention he isn't immune to the effect of killing the archdemon.

Man I'm glad I didn't read the books.

Fiona was fully a Grey Warden, was even starting to undergo the Calling by the end.  (Hearing the call, flesh starting to change, etc.)  But in the end she had returned to normal and told Maric that she was now somehow immune to it.  The Grey Wardens were studying the amulets to find out HOW that happened to see if they could replicate it for future wardens.

So it is *possible* that Al is immune. 

[tkaz85]

The Tevinter Magisters performed Blood Magic rituals that required the sacrifice of hundreds of slaves at a time to complete. Human sacrifice is frowned upon by most civilized cultures (Ferelden included), and even the the most basic Blood Magic spells directly drain the lives of the caster or (usually) someone else (see: Redcliffe), so as a result it is "evil". And you have to admit, summoning demons is a clearly evil act that usually doesn't end well for the caster (see: Circle Tower).

[The Angry One]

javierabegazo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

By the way, why is blood magic = evil?
Good players can be blood mages too. Blood magic can be *dangerous* but not evil.
It's only evil because the Chantry says so. And the Chantry is full of crap anyway.

I think it's just because Blood Magic has incredible potential for power, and that it easily corrupts, that Demons have easier time breaking the veil to possess a user. Just look at what happened to the Circle of Magi

Yes, like I said, it's dangerous. But what happened there was as much a result of Chantry dogma and intolerance as anything else.
Instead of regulating and controlling this powerful tool, they brand it EVIL and persecute people who use it. It's like Prohibition only with magic. People will do it anyway, and now it's out of your control, and they feel justified in fighting you for it.

The Grey Wardens have no such dogmatic restrictions on it's use.

[Wintermist]

Did they actually show anywhere in the game what happens to people who are not immune yet in touch with the Darkspawn?

[The Angry One]

tkaz85 wrote...

The Tevinter Magisters performed Blood Magic rituals that required the sacrifice of hundreds of slaves at a time to complete. Human sacrifice is frowned upon by most civilized cultures (Ferelden included), and even the the most basic Blood Magic spells directly drain the lives of the caster or (usually) someone else (see: Redcliffe), so as a result it is "evil". And you have to admit, summoning demons is a clearly evil act that usually doesn't end well for the caster (see: Circle Tower).

Draining one's own life is one's own choice, and hardly evil.
Human sacrifice may be, but only the most powerful blood magics require that. Branding all blood magic evil because *some* of it is dangerous and amoral is like calling nuclear power evil because of a-bombs.

.... which people do tend to do anyway. Point is, evil is relative. Half of what the Chantry itself does is evil. Exalted Marches anyone?

[RazorrX]

Wintermist wrote...

Did they actually show anywhere in the game what happens to people who are not immune yet in touch with the Darkspawn?

They talk about it in camp at Ostigar, but other than that . . . nope.

[Wintermist]

RazorrX wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

Did they actually show anywhere in the game what happens to people who are not immune yet in touch with the Darkspawn?

They talk about it in camp at Ostigar, but other than that . . . nope.

That's what I thought. I really do wonder though, it's hard to visualize the world as tainted without it It's probably something similar to the plague, but it doesn't affect party members, which is fantasticly lucky. So the world must only party up and be safe.

[Gill Kaiser]

We see a few of the people who got in touch with the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads. You know, the insane, feral cannibals.

[tkaz85]

The powerful blood magics that you refer to allowed the Tevinter magisters to reach the Golden City. And we all know how THAT turned out.... As for the rest of it I can definitely see how they could be useful aginst the Blight, although if given the choice between using your own life force and another's I doubt any Blood Mage would be selfless..

Modifié par tkaz85, 16 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[Flamin Jesus]

RazorrX wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

Did they actually show anywhere in the game what happens to people who are not immune yet in touch with the Darkspawn?

They talk about it in camp at Ostigar, but other than that . . . nope.

I'm not sure if this counts, but Branka's lover... Whatshername... The dwarven woman you meet on your way to the Broodmother... She doesn't exactly look immune, but she was clearly in contact with the Darkspawn.

[Wintermist]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

We see a few of the people who got in touch with the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads. You know, the insane, feral cannibals.

Ah yeah, thanks, I forgot about that.

[The Angry One]

tkaz85 wrote...

The powerful blood magics that you refer too allowed the Tevinter magisters to reach the Golden City. And we all know how THAT turned out.... As for the rest of it I can definitely see how they could be useful aginst the Blight, although if given the choice between using your own life force and another's I doubt any Blood Mage would be selfless..

Actually we don't, given that this is again more Chantry dogma.
We don't know what really happened and even Chantry followers like Leliana will say so; I for one would be disappointed if this were the truth as it's rather trite and... convenient.

[RazorrX]

Ahh yeah, forgot about that and it is one of the best parts of the game. You do get to see what happens there.

[Medivan]

First off it's stated in the opening of the game, Grey Wardens sacrifice EVERYTHING to defeat the blight (it's one of the reasons the Legion of the Dead really understands them), the only pre-requisite for being a Grey Warden is defeating the blight comes before all else. Jory did indeed have to be killed by duncan, not only did someone mention one part of it before (he pulled weapon during war on a commanding officer), but the Grey Wardens were only allowed back in Fereldan a matter of years ago. Think about what would happen should the general populace know that their "saviors" were themselves infected by the same Taint that makes the Darkspawn?



Personally I don't see Sophia as the bad end of the fight at Soldiers Peak. As per Codex when the King outlawed the Wardens it was BEFORE the rebellion. He put her in the tower, tried to poison her then she escaped. He was evil, power hungry and by the sounds of it quite the tyrant. The problem came though that one of the few rules the Wardens have is what Sophia broke (so does the player during the game ironically enough, although it IS a means to stop the Blight). Grey Wardens don't interfere in government/politics. What proved their death was the Mage in Warden's Keep not being able to control that which he summoned.

[RazorrX]

Funny but what I got was that SHE is the reason the Grey Wardens were kicked out of Ferelden. They were kicked out because they tried to overthrow the government. They tried to overthrow the government because Sophia led them in revolt to gain revenge, it had nothing to do with a tyrant, etc. it was because SHE wanted the throne. Her men followed her because blood magic was used and she was a powerful personality/leader. The demon admits it, her jounals admit it, etc. The Wardens are led to believe it is because of a tyrant but Sophia states that she wanted the throne.



Grey Wardens do not Sacrifce EVERYTHING. This is pointed out in The Calling. They sacrifice themselves. They would do what needed to be done to win within military planning, but they have limits. The Legion of the dead understand them because they are similar, they give thier own lives up to protect the rest.



Jory died because he was a coward. He was told PRIOR to the actual ritual that there was no turning back at that point. That you 3 had been conscripted into the Grey Wardens, your free will on the matter is over. You had 2 options, the ritual or death. I was told this at the camp fire prior to the ritual. BTW, Duncan was made a grey warden by Conscription as well.



But this is what I meant when I started this, Would really like to see if Bioware has something that elaborates this, as there are 2 schools of thought here and I am sure the truth is near the middle rather than both ends. IE Not so do anything but not so much honor. I am sure there are lines they do not cross (as The Calling made clear) just as I am sure there are some they do. Just curious as to what they are.

[RazorrX]

The Angry One wrote...

By the way, why is blood magic = evil?
Good players can be blood mages too. Blood magic can be *dangerous* but not evil.
It's only evil because the Chantry says so. And the Chantry is full of crap anyway.

Just curious as to how a player can be 'good' and a blood mage as the way to learn it is to sacrifice a young boys soul to a demon.  (You bargin with it, learn blood magic and the demon is allowed to possess the boy later).

[Wissenschaft]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Because they won, that is the only reason. As it is shown alot ingame, the people of Thedas seem to only care if you are the victor or not, and if you are then everything else will be changed to make you into the champion. Duncan butchered Jorey because he refused to drink from the cup, what did that achieve other than to make Duncan look like a ****?

Duncan could not let the secret that they drink darkspawn blood get out. And history in RL often supports the victor for no other reason than its the victors that write the history books.

[Vilegrim]

Morals? Hmm tricky, but it can be said they make the hard choices so that no one else has to and that they give there lives for th defence of others. Honourable certainly, but moral?

[Wissenschaft]

RazorrX wrote...

Funny but what I got was that SHE is the reason the Grey Wardens were kicked out of Ferelden. They were kicked out because they tried to overthrow the government. They tried to overthrow the government because Sophia led them in revolt to gain revenge, it had nothing to do with a tyrant, etc. it was because SHE wanted the throne. Her men followed her because blood magic was used and she was a powerful personality/leader. The demon admits it, her jounals admit it, etc. The Wardens are led to believe it is because of a tyrant but Sophia states that she wanted the throne.

Actually that what the tyrant wrote in the history books. Its the same as how Logain tried to blame the kings death on the grey wardens. It was a blanat lie.

[RazorrX]

Wissenschaft wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Funny but what I got was that SHE is the reason the Grey Wardens were kicked out of Ferelden. They were kicked out because they tried to overthrow the government. They tried to overthrow the government because Sophia led them in revolt to gain revenge, it had nothing to do with a tyrant, etc. it was because SHE wanted the throne. Her men followed her because blood magic was used and she was a powerful personality/leader. The demon admits it, her jounals admit it, etc. The Wardens are led to believe it is because of a tyrant but Sophia states that she wanted the throne.

Actually that what the tyrant wrote in the history books. Its the same as how Logain tried to blame the kings death on the grey wardens. It was a blanat lie.

Like I said, that is funny because her journal and the demon both told me that it was Her own ambition that led to the revolt.

[Valfreyja]

RazorrX wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

By the way, why is blood magic = evil?
Good players can be blood mages too. Blood magic can be *dangerous* but not evil.
It's only evil because the Chantry says so. And the Chantry is full of crap anyway.

Just curious as to how a player can be 'good' and a blood mage as the way to learn it is to sacrifice a young boys soul to a demon.  (You bargin with it, learn blood magic and the demon is allowed to possess the boy later).

Actually you can intimidate the demoness into leaving the boy permanently -AND- grant you one desire if you let her live. Not sure how high your coercion has to be, but it is doable. I did it on my mage.

[Wissenschaft]

RazorrX wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Funny but what I got was that SHE is the reason the Grey Wardens were kicked out of Ferelden. They were kicked out because they tried to overthrow the government. They tried to overthrow the government because Sophia led them in revolt to gain revenge, it had nothing to do with a tyrant, etc. it was because SHE wanted the throne. Her men followed her because blood magic was used and she was a powerful personality/leader. The demon admits it, her jounals admit it, etc. The Wardens are led to believe it is because of a tyrant but Sophia states that she wanted the throne.

Actually that what the tyrant wrote in the history books. Its the same as how Logain tried to blame the kings death on the grey wardens. It was a blanat lie.

Like I said, that is funny because her journal and the demon both told me that it was Her own ambition that led to the revolt.

Somehow I wouldn't trust a demon.......Nor a dead woman full of regret.