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[RazorrX]

Wissenschaft wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Funny but what I got was that SHE is the reason the Grey Wardens were kicked out of Ferelden. They were kicked out because they tried to overthrow the government. They tried to overthrow the government because Sophia led them in revolt to gain revenge, it had nothing to do with a tyrant, etc. it was because SHE wanted the throne. Her men followed her because blood magic was used and she was a powerful personality/leader. The demon admits it, her jounals admit it, etc. The Wardens are led to believe it is because of a tyrant but Sophia states that she wanted the throne.

Actually that what the tyrant wrote in the history books. Its the same as how Logain tried to blame the kings death on the grey wardens. It was a blanat lie.

Like I said, that is funny because her journal and the demon both told me that it was Her own ambition that led to the revolt.

Somehow I wouldn't trust a demon.......Nor a dead woman full of regret.

LOL okay so you are saying that it is a lie based upon what evidence?  I read a journal that slowly progressed her desire to take the throne, then had the demon answer questions thinking it was going to go free.  You get your information from ? ? 

I am just going from what evidence I was able to find, I wanted her to be a hero, she was not. 

[Ickabod27]

The motto is: In war, Victory.



That is all that matters, win no matter what.

[Wintermist]

One has to understand what the Grey Warden are up against. Defeat the Darkspawn source, or let the world go under. The morale is on a higher level than taking candy from a child. It's win or die. Even if there's only 1000 left in Ferelden it's a victory over 0 people in Ferelden.

[wcholcombe]

Wardens--willing to assasinate kings to fight the blight.



The rebellion against the king of Ferelden was just because the king was doing bad for everyone and in such weakening them against the next blight.



Also, a fair number of the warden's are criminal before becoming wardens.



As for the wardens in the Calling: The hunter with the dog had been a warden just as long as those who gave into the taint if not longer and he still rebelled against the idea.



So I think there is a lot of win at all costs, but there is also a degree of what you came from affecting the actions you are willing to take.



One grey warden would leave Redcliff to its own devices and kill the boy to stop the demon.

Another would save redcliff, save the boy, and win that way if he/she could.

[Setz69]

Duncan did kill Jory right off the start for being apprehensive about joining. This give you any idea on how far their morale's go? And

He does give you an ultimatum as a human noble to join the grey wardens or he's not helping you get out of the castle. Whatever it takes to win. Basically I think it boils down to the certain warden and what HIS morale's and choices are.

Modifié par Setz69, 16 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[JamesX]

Warden philosophy is, suppose to be, Ruthlessness. What ever it takes to get the job done. They don't have the luxury to be confined with Morality. The only care about survival - the survival of the world by any means necessary.

Pretty sure the Wardens had to annulment the entire world to get rid of the blight, they would.

[Medivan]

"Grey Wardens do not Sacrifce EVERYTHING. This is pointed out in The Calling. They sacrifice themselves. They would do what needed to be done to win within military planning, but they have limits. The Legion of the dead understand them because they are similar, they give thier own lives up to protect the rest."



The Wardens do, they leave behind their entire lives to devote themselves to fighting the Blight. The Legion of the Dead has funerals for new members so they are dead in the eyes of their brothers. Leaving behind all that you love, for a CHANCE to be a Grey Warden knowing it is a death sentence and you'll never die of old age. Either the Darkspawn themselves get you, you die from killing the Archdemon, or The Calling gets you, you are sacrificing yourself and your old life for the greater good.

[The Angry One]

RazorrX wrote...

LOL okay so you are saying that it is a lie based upon what evidence?  I read a journal that slowly progressed her desire to take the throne, then had the demon answer questions thinking it was going to go free.  You get your information from ? ? 

I am just going from what evidence I was able to find, I wanted her to be a hero, she was not. 

And yet you ignore the notes like the one from a local Bann imploring Sophie to help against the king, who was pulling the same sort of crap Howe + Loghain were, wiping out entire families of the nobility who opposed them.
How is Sophie in fact any different from the PC in this regard? Both opposed the "legitimate" ruler of Ferelden, the only difference is the PC succeeds where Sophie failed.

[RazorrX]

Medivan wrote...

"Grey Wardens do not Sacrifce EVERYTHING. This is pointed out in The Calling. They sacrifice themselves. They would do what needed to be done to win within military planning, but they have limits. The Legion of the dead understand them because they are similar, they give thier own lives up to protect the rest."

The Wardens do, they leave behind their entire lives to devote themselves to fighting the Blight. The Legion of the Dead has funerals for new members so they are dead in the eyes of their brothers. Leaving behind all that you love, for a CHANCE to be a Grey Warden knowing it is a death sentence and you'll never die of old age. Either the Darkspawn themselves get you, you die from killing the Archdemon, or The Calling gets you, you are sacrificing yourself and your old life for the greater good.

 I understand that, and I agree.  What i was disagreeing with is "EVERYTHING".  You do not sacrifice the world to end the blight. (as mentioned above) that is not done.  Grey Wardens are protectors of the world (In theory at least).  The Calling even talks about that very mind set and how it is wrong.

You personally give up your life, but you do not sacrifice everyone else.

[The Angry One]

Morality is useless when all your lands are burned and all your people dead.

I suspect a Grey Warden would sacrifice 10,000 lives to stop the Blight. They wouldn't relish the idea, but if it were the only way then so be it.

10,000 lives now vs. the entire planet later.



Of course, that's an exagerration, and most Wardens make do with sacrificing their own against the Blight. Point is the Wardens are very much in the philosophy of the ends justify the means.

Whether that is truly moral or not is besides the point. Nobody in Dragon Age is truly moral anyway, especially not the Chantry.

[RazorrX]

The Angry One wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

LOL okay so you are saying that it is a lie based upon what evidence?  I read a journal that slowly progressed her desire to take the throne, then had the demon answer questions thinking it was going to go free.  You get your information from ? ? 

I am just going from what evidence I was able to find, I wanted her to be a hero, she was not. 

And yet you ignore the notes like the one from a local Bann imploring Sophie to help against the king, who was pulling the same sort of crap Howe + Loghain were, wiping out entire families of the nobility who opposed them.
How is Sophie in fact any different from the PC in this regard? Both opposed the "legitimate" ruler of Ferelden, the only difference is the PC succeeds where Sophie failed.

Actually I do not ignore it.  Sophie was starting a rebellion.  Her consituants and those she used blood magic on to influence were being hunted down and taken care of.  Was it ruthless? Sure.  But it rests upon Sophie as she is the instigator who is causing the problem.   Sophie was trying o set herself up as the Hero of Ferelden so that she could rule.   There was no Blight, No threat of a Blight, etc.   She states that she will use her grey wardens to exact revenge and gain the throne.

How it is different is that Loghain betrays the King (and a Just king at that, if somewhat stupid) and the Grey Wardens as well as the people of Ferelden.  Loghain is setting up a civil war for the sole purpose of keeping Orlais out, when a BLIGHT is here.   There is a Blight.  That makes a whole hella lot of difference.  Before you ever take action against Loghain, when he finds out you are live he sends out  assassains.  He spreads lies, he harms your every effort of uniting an army to fight the Blight.. 

In the end (Landsmeet) it is all about YOU and Ferelden NEED an army to fight the blight, and HE is still worried about Orlais!  He is NEVER the legitimate ruler of Ferelden, Ferelden is in a civil war because of his treachery.  The PC could very well spare Loghain, let his daughter be queen, etc, just needs the freaking army to save the world.   The PC could beg Loghain for an army to fight the archdemon outside the door and Loghain would be too busy blabbering on about Orlais and spanking his monkey over how awesome he is.

Sophie wanted to be Ruler.

Big difference.

[The Angry One]

So? King Arlan was said to be a tyrant too.

Difference is, he won. So most of the history doesn't give us a clear and dirty look on things like we have with Loghain.

If Loghain had won and somehow emerged victorious with an intact nation then you can bet the history books wouldn't say jack about how he meandered on the throne being paranoid about Orlais while his kingdom burned around him.

[RazorrX]

The Angry One wrote...

Morality is useless when all your lands are burned and all your people dead.
I suspect a Grey Warden would sacrifice 10,000 lives to stop the Blight. They wouldn't relish the idea, but if it were the only way then so be it.
10,000 lives now vs. the entire planet later.

Of course, that's an exagerration, and most Wardens make do with sacrificing their own against the Blight. Point is the Wardens are very much in the philosophy of the ends justify the means.
Whether that is truly moral or not is besides the point. Nobody in Dragon Age is truly moral anyway, especially not the Chantry.

We shall just agree to disagree on the limits of that then.

I understand sacrifice, I understand burn a city to save the rest, etc.  I believe from what I have read that they do have a limit.  That they do have a moral compass that says "This line you can not cross".

I think there is a means that is not justifiable, even to a grey warden.  NOw the player woudl be different as they have never been taught just what it means to BE a grey warden.  The game purposely set that up so that you could be evil or good, or whatever.  So the PC is never incorrect because of that.

But I wonder at if the organization is actually like that.  Probabably will never actually know.  The Collectors ed guide seems to paint them as better than that.

There are plenty of moral people in Dragon Age, just depends on what you classify as morals.
 

[RazorrX]

The Angry One wrote...

So? King Arlan was said to be a tyrant too.
Difference is, he won. So most of the history doesn't give us a clear and dirty look on things like we have with Loghain.
If Loghain had won and somehow emerged victorious with an intact nation then you can bet the history books wouldn't say jack about how he meandered on the throne being paranoid about Orlais while his kingdom burned around him.

Once again, the difference is in the details.  I notice the question just changed from how you and she are different to a statement that since they were both tyrants it is the same.  No.

It has Nothing to do with how history paints it.  It has to do with WHY and HOW they are different in reality.

PC is attacked without provocation by Tyrant.  PC tries to save world.  Tyrant continues to attack PC.  PC finally turns on Tyrant and establishes peace in order to fight Blight.  (Can even leave tyrant in place, not overthrow).

Sophie wants to be ruler.  Sophie uses blood magic to corrupt those she needs to help her in her quest.  Tyrant starts to hunt Sophies people down and deal with them harshly. Sophie tells everyone: SEE? a Tyrant! Stand with me!

Totaly different.

Now in your playthrough in your mind maybe you were always wanting the throne, etc. so it was the only thing behind it for you, but the game seems to paint that as an end option only for human noble thus not the entire game theory.

[JamesX]

It is easy to be moral when everything is peachy.

If it come down to. Let the blight win and take over the world and turn everything into demons and darkspawns, or kill every single living being on the planet to stop it - with no other alternatives inbetween.

IMHO - Gray Wardens would chose to kill every single living thing.

[RazorrX]

JamesX wrote...

It is easy to be moral when everything is peachy.
If it come down to. Let the blight win and take over the world and turn everything into demons and darkspawns, or kill every single living being on the planet to stop it - with no other alternatives inbetween.
IMHO - Gray Wardens would chose to kill every single living thing.

That is funny because in "The Calling" it is stated that that is exactly what they would NOT do.  They would try to find another solution, if none was found they would go down fighting trying to save the last people.

[KnightofPhoenix]

RazorrX wrote...
So do the Grey Wardens actually have an Honor Code / Morals? If not, why are they held in such high esteem?

When you ask Duncan what he thinks about the Chantry, Templars, Mages and blood mages issue, he says:
"I know that the Blight must be defeated one way or the other. That's as far as my opinion goes".
That shows that defeating the Blight is not the first priority. It is the ONLY priority for a Grey Warden.

And since when people revere morality? People revere power first and foremost. And as was said, that's why we revere Caesar, Napoleon and the like.
The Grey Wardens are held in high esteem because they defeat the blight. Whatever they do to achieve that end is justified.

[JamesX]

RazorrX wrote...

That is funny because in "The Calling" it is stated that that is exactly what they would NOT do.  They would try to find another solution, if none was found they would go down fighting trying to save the last people.

That is just because they never faced the reality of the situation.  The beauty of a hypothetical situation is it is a certainty.  The flaw of a real world is there is always "what if"

[aebriol]

I think you are missing the point.



The Grey Wardens is an order founded to fight the blight. In order to do so they infect them with tainted darkspawn blood. Eventually, the taint takes over and the grey warden needs to be put down. But untill then, he or she grows more powerfull, and gain abilities like sensing darkspawn.



The Grey Wardens recruit all kinds of people, but the order exist for just one purpose. But why do you think a good guy that becomes a gray warden in order to save the world, would behave the same way that a murderer that is conscripted because of his fighting skill? It's clear, both in the books and in game, that both types are acceptable to the grey wardens.



One goal: Defeat the blight. Everything else is secondary. So, yes - if you use your powers for good, great. If you don't, well - if you save the world... nothing else matters.



The main reason why the grey wardens don't want to be seen as evil, or doing evil, is because it could influence people against them, and they could lose their influence (power of conscription, etc). Other than that - well, they seem like an order of fanatics: everything is good if it furthers the goal. The goal being defeating the blight.

[FlintlockJazz]

javierabegazo wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Because
they won, that is the only reason. As it is shown alot ingame, the people of Thedas seem to only care if you are the victor or not, and if you are then everything else will be changed to make you into the champion. Duncan butchered Jorey because he refused to drink from the cup, what did that achieve other than to make Duncan look like a ****?

They cannot find out about the ritual and escape. Upon being accepted as a recruit, there wasn't any going back. And this has already been talked about in length, Duncan HAD to kill Jorey. In the codex you find that a long time ago a grey warden master was killed by a recruit in the same situation, after experiencing the horror of
the taint. Jorey could not be allowed to escape with that knowledge. The fact that Grey Wardens are infected with the taint must be kept a secret. 

I know why he did it, but the way it was portrayed was done wrong.  Plus, considering that not only did they know that putting trained killers in a stressful situation can result in bad things happening but that bad things had happened before I have to question the wisdom of letting them keep their weapons on them.  Jorey states that he only knows how to deal things with his sword as well, and soldiers will often default to their training when all else fails...

The Angry One wrote...


Not this again.
You know what? Even if there was no secret to keep, which there was, I will say again: Jory drew steel first. The end.
Even today if a soldier pulls a gun on their commanding officer they're likely to get shot and killed. This is exactly what Jory did. Well minus the guns.

Yes, he drew steel first, the point still stands that Duncan could have and should have handled it better.  A lot of commanding officers were killed for incompetence and for generally being dislikable during Vietnam by their own troops, if Duncan puts his men in an intolerable situation knowingly then he has betrayed them, especially if he could have taken measures such as disarming them in order to prevent them from resorting to their training.  You don't put trained killers in a stressful situation without taking precautions, the end.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 17 novembre 2009 - 09:44 .

[OniDaimyo]

RazorrX wrote...

Allistars mother was an elven Mage Named Fiona. Fiona was a Grey Warden and by the End of the calling you find out that she has become immune to the taint. It is possible that her immunity is carried by her child.

So wouldn't that mean Allister should be a half elf? 

[moxxdaminotaur]

OniDaimyo wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Allistars mother was an elven Mage Named Fiona. Fiona was a Grey Warden and by the End of the calling you find out that she has become immune to the taint. It is possible that her immunity is carried by her child.

So wouldn't that mean Allister should be a half elf? 

Question about that.  There doesn't seem to be any half-elves in this world is there?  If anyone played thru the City-Elf Origin, then wouldn't there be more half-elves?  Sad truth is that if you sexually assault someone, sometimes you do produce a child.  Off-topic i know.

Anyway, regarding the Ritual.  If I remember correctly, Duncan drew first.  Of course Jory was already backing away and refusing to drink the blood.  But Duncan drew his elven dagger "dal'misu" first.

As for GW morals, I believe practicality would be foremost in a GW's code of behavior.  As long as it is practical, and it contribute to the war effort against the Blight, I believe GW in general will use it.

[OniDaimyo]

Or the person writing the book didnt think ahead? Or the people who made the game didn't think of this? No sorry I think Allister should have SOMETHING elf about him. It's just bull that he's totally normal human. No slightly elven features at all.

[FlintlockJazz]

No, Alistair would not have any elven characteristics as one of the reasons why many elves don't approve of their kind breeding with other races is that elven dna is described as 'adaptable' by the developers, meaning that when an elf has an offspring with a non-elf the resulting offspring is always of the non-elf's race. So breeding with a human would give an elf a human child while breeding with a dwarf woud give a dwarf offspring. Hence just another reason for all those elves in the City Elf origin to be concerned.

[OniDaimyo]

Sounds like just a lame excuse to me.