This post ISN'T meant to be a bash PC or console arena. Each camp has things going for and against it, so please don't use this post as a venue to harass one side or the other.
Purpose of this post? Simply, your opinion.
I've been viewing a lot of footage from the game and can't help notice that many mechanics are in place because of console considerations. I understand that consoles don't have the liberties of a keyboard and the design must use methods that still afford functionality and access to a broad menu of abilities and management. However, from a PC perspective, this structure seems restrictive and often involves more steps than what could ideally be achieved if only the PC was taken into consideration.
I'm fully aware that developers try to find a middle ground between the two platforms and that giving each side equal focus wouldn't be time or cost effective, but in trying to appease both sides, do they fail to adequately reach that goal? Again, not trying to start a PC >< Console war here, but I'm not very happy stumbling through console mechanics when I play on a PC.
I guess my real question is whether or not others find issue with this or if it doesn't phase them one way or the other. If you do have a problem with this, should developers design different mechanisms that are specifically tailored to each platform?
Is designing around both consoles "and" PCs a major drawback?
Débuté par
Baelin Firestorm
, oct. 28 2009 11:04
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#2
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:07
On_Slaught
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Is it a major drawback? No.
Is it a good thing? No.
Is it a good thing? No.
#3
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:12
GhoXen
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PC has completely different controls than on console. Consoles use random "circle systems". PC use controls similar to NWN2.
You should look at some footages of the game played on PC and not Xbox, which are somewhat rare, and you may find something quite different.
By the way, PC gets bird's eye view, consoles don't.
You should look at some footages of the game played on PC and not Xbox, which are somewhat rare, and you may find something quite different.
By the way, PC gets bird's eye view, consoles don't.
#4
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:21
Fuzzyrabbit
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Er, the game was designed for PC. The PC version was finished ages ago, but they waited to release a console port together with the PC version. Nothing in the PC version was hobbled for the sake of consoles, the interface for each is completely different.
IE: the PC version has an MMO-like bar along the bottom of the screen that's loaded with abilities that can be assigned to hotkeys. Whereas the console version has a radial menu. Additionally, the PC version allows more enemies on screen at one time, looks better in general (on a decent rig) and has a tactical, zoomed out view that the console versions lack.
I can appreciate your concerns as far as PC gaming in general, but I don't see any concessions being made for consoles here.
IE: the PC version has an MMO-like bar along the bottom of the screen that's loaded with abilities that can be assigned to hotkeys. Whereas the console version has a radial menu. Additionally, the PC version allows more enemies on screen at one time, looks better in general (on a decent rig) and has a tactical, zoomed out view that the console versions lack.
I can appreciate your concerns as far as PC gaming in general, but I don't see any concessions being made for consoles here.
#5
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:21
Lord_Rian
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As an ex-developer, Yes, It is a drawback. It is becoming decreasingly so as the console hardware comes closer to PC levels, but it remains one.
Take Dragon Age for instance. Rather than simply building an engine that has to take into account the thousands of hardware configurations possible on that platform, you also have to build an engine that can deliver top-quality performance not only on cutting edge PC hardware, but also on hardware (in the case of the 360) that is well over 5 years old and of an entirely alien configuration to the PC.
There is also hubris at work, you simply can't have the PC edition looking 30X better than the console version, because that would cause alienation of one audience and poor sales. The console market is the primary game market now, and thus PC versions of cross developed games are deliberately kept at just above their console counterparts visually.
From a financial standpoint, its awesome. You role in 2-3 times as much cash as a result of selling to 3 different audiences. From a design standpoint, it is horrible. It either results in shoddy ports as a result of developing on one platform exclusively and then porting to another, or games that have significant portions or features sacrificed in favor of cross-platform development. There are outliers, yes, but on the whole it is a downside.
Take Dragon Age for instance. Rather than simply building an engine that has to take into account the thousands of hardware configurations possible on that platform, you also have to build an engine that can deliver top-quality performance not only on cutting edge PC hardware, but also on hardware (in the case of the 360) that is well over 5 years old and of an entirely alien configuration to the PC.
There is also hubris at work, you simply can't have the PC edition looking 30X better than the console version, because that would cause alienation of one audience and poor sales. The console market is the primary game market now, and thus PC versions of cross developed games are deliberately kept at just above their console counterparts visually.
From a financial standpoint, its awesome. You role in 2-3 times as much cash as a result of selling to 3 different audiences. From a design standpoint, it is horrible. It either results in shoddy ports as a result of developing on one platform exclusively and then porting to another, or games that have significant portions or features sacrificed in favor of cross-platform development. There are outliers, yes, but on the whole it is a downside.
Modifié par Lord_Rian, 28 octobre 2009 - 11:23 .
#6
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:23
Baelin Firestorm
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Fuzzyrabbit wrote...
Er, the game was designed for PC. The PC version was finished ages ago, but they waited to release a console port together with the PC version. Nothing in the PC version was hobbled for the sake of consoles, the interface for each is completely different.
IE: the PC version has an MMO-like bar along the bottom of the screen that's loaded with abilities that can be assigned to hotkeys. Whereas the console version has a radial menu. Additionally, the PC version allows more enemies on screen at one time, looks better in general (on a decent rig) and has a tactical, zoomed out view that the console versions lack.
I can appreciate your concerns as far as PC gaming in general, but I don't see any concessions being made for consoles here.
Thank you for the clarification. Perhaps I was just viewing console vids.
#7
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:24
xODD7BALLx
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I dont find it to be a make or break issue, by that I mean with tactical shooters for PC there is typically a lean function which more than often helps a great deal with the gameplay and saves your skin in a firefight quite a bit, but on console this isnt implemented, and it comes down to in my opinion that without the amount of keys/buttons on a console controller there isnt any simple way of doing so without sacrificing something else. I think if consoles adopted the ability more so than it has been done in the past to use a mouse and keyboard it and key mapping within the options it would certainly help bridge the gap and keep PC fundamentals intact as far as controls and concerned and still have a simple scheme for a standard controller.
I dont find it to be a huge deal, with any style of gameplay because with any experience you have to learn and adapt to gain familiarity with such things and then they become muscle memory and there is little to no hesitation in utilizing what control you do have within the game.
There are a few developers out there that have specific teams that will focus on gameplay for each platform if the title is intended to be a multi platform release, many great titles sometimes fall by the wayside because there is no set plan on how to handle each aspect of the games development for each platform thoroughly and that's when noticeable issues arise in the way the game is received by its audience. But again I try and work around or re-learn or ignore what was and focus on what is, so personally I dont find it as a gamebreaker issue for me. RTS's are something that you dont see much on consoles and there is good reason for it, the keyboard gives you so much more control over commands or squads, and there has yet to be a solid scheme to follow for controls when an RTS comes to console, the games still there but it's much more difficult to command and build and etc. But again I learn and adapt.
I do have an appreciation for multiplatform titles because it gets the developers work more exposure and if it's a great title then you typically dont have to guess if there will be a follow up or more to expect from that developer.
I dont find it to be a huge deal, with any style of gameplay because with any experience you have to learn and adapt to gain familiarity with such things and then they become muscle memory and there is little to no hesitation in utilizing what control you do have within the game.
There are a few developers out there that have specific teams that will focus on gameplay for each platform if the title is intended to be a multi platform release, many great titles sometimes fall by the wayside because there is no set plan on how to handle each aspect of the games development for each platform thoroughly and that's when noticeable issues arise in the way the game is received by its audience. But again I try and work around or re-learn or ignore what was and focus on what is, so personally I dont find it as a gamebreaker issue for me. RTS's are something that you dont see much on consoles and there is good reason for it, the keyboard gives you so much more control over commands or squads, and there has yet to be a solid scheme to follow for controls when an RTS comes to console, the games still there but it's much more difficult to command and build and etc. But again I learn and adapt.
I do have an appreciation for multiplatform titles because it gets the developers work more exposure and if it's a great title then you typically dont have to guess if there will be a follow up or more to expect from that developer.
#8
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:26
GhoXen
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There hasn't been a single BioWare game that I can think of which has console-like interface on PC.
#9
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:29
failsafeignition
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On_Slaught wrote...
Is it a major drawback? No.
Is it a good thing? No.
Soooooooo agree.
Not a major drawback, but consoles have a way of dumbing down PC games.
Yeah, I know some of you are going to deny this fact until your nose bleeds, but it's soooo true.
A gamepad will never measure up to a keyboard and mouse. PC graphics are always advancing while consoles advance in bursts.
And, like it or not, the average age demographic of consoles is far younger than PC.
Example...Deus Ex vs Deus Ex 2. Case closed.
So, yes, it's definitely not a good thing. But it happens. Why? Because publishers want to make as much money as possible.
#10
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:31
Baelin Firestorm
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GhoXen wrote...
There hasn't been a single BioWare game that I can think of which has console-like interface on PC.
Mass Effect? Particularly the conversation wheel which I adapted to use, but still found it impractical on a PC. There were other console mechanisms in ME (inventory, etc.), but the convo wheel was the most obvious.
#11
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:37
flem1
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KOTOR, unfortunately.GhoXen wrote...
There hasn't been a single BioWare game that I can think of which has console-like interface on PC.
#12
Posté 28 octobre 2009 - 11:52
Sam-_-Fisher
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Baelin Firestorm wrote...
This post ISN'T meant to be a bash PC or console arena. Each camp has things going for and against it, so please don't use this post as a venue to harass one side or the other.
Purpose of this post? Simply, your opinion.
I've been viewing a lot of footage from the game and can't help notice that many mechanics are in place because of console considerations. I understand that consoles don't have the liberties of a keyboard and the design must use methods that still afford functionality and access to a broad menu of abilities and management. However, from a PC perspective, this structure seems restrictive and often involves more steps than what could ideally be achieved if only the PC was taken into consideration.
I'm fully aware that developers try to find a middle ground between the two platforms and that giving each side equal focus wouldn't be time or cost effective, but in trying to appease both sides, do they fail to adequately reach that goal? Again, not trying to start a PC >< Console war here, but I'm not very happy stumbling through console mechanics when I play on a PC.
I guess my real question is whether or not others find issue with this or if it doesn't phase them one way or the other. If you do have a problem with this, should developers design different mechanisms that are specifically tailored to each platform?
The interface is completely different for consoles vs PC. I fail to see how either system is hindered. Other than the fact that it would take more time in development to create the different interfaces between console / PC.
Modifié par Sam-_-Fisher, 28 octobre 2009 - 11:53 .
#13
Guest_JacobsGladedage_*
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 10:54
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As much as I liked Baldurs Gate I doubt I would've ever completed it if it hadn't been because I was co-oping with a friend. The multiple characters and the strategy combat never really did it for me, but it did for him, so we split them between us. He got to control as many characters as he wanted and spend tons of time on strategy in combat while I just controlled one and ran around bashing stuff.
So I was actually quite concerned about DA (since it has no multiplayer) until I saw a video on gametrailers where someone mentioned you didn't have to be as tactical in the console version.
Yesterday it released for the PS3 here in Yurop and I picked it up despite everyone telling me the PC version would be far superior. ^^ I'm absolutely loving the controls, and console DA camera are the first camera controls in a Bioware game that don't bother me. But what's better is that I havn't had to control any of the other characters but my own much so far on normal difficulty! At the same time my old friend has been spending tons of hours on the PC version with his topdown camera view and full control over every character.
The part of the interface which handles your abilities isn't the best thing though. Not because it doesn't work, it does and well too. But there are too many abilities per character. This isn't a problem with the PC interface which has alot more short cuts.
Personally I would've prefered fewer abilities if I were playing on the PC aswell though, I much prefered the way KOTOR handled abilities.Where you instead of always getting something new and shiny, had the option to upgrade an ability 4 times.
But overall I think this is one of the best multiplatform releases ever.
So I was actually quite concerned about DA (since it has no multiplayer) until I saw a video on gametrailers where someone mentioned you didn't have to be as tactical in the console version.
Yesterday it released for the PS3 here in Yurop and I picked it up despite everyone telling me the PC version would be far superior. ^^ I'm absolutely loving the controls, and console DA camera are the first camera controls in a Bioware game that don't bother me. But what's better is that I havn't had to control any of the other characters but my own much so far on normal difficulty! At the same time my old friend has been spending tons of hours on the PC version with his topdown camera view and full control over every character.
The part of the interface which handles your abilities isn't the best thing though. Not because it doesn't work, it does and well too. But there are too many abilities per character. This isn't a problem with the PC interface which has alot more short cuts.
Personally I would've prefered fewer abilities if I were playing on the PC aswell though, I much prefered the way KOTOR handled abilities.Where you instead of always getting something new and shiny, had the option to upgrade an ability 4 times.
But overall I think this is one of the best multiplatform releases ever.
Modifié par JacobsGladedage, 21 novembre 2009 - 10:56 .
#14
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 11:27
HoratioSanz
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I knock DA:O alot about the DLC...
But thank God DA:O isn't a port.
Take a look at Borderlands for example, great game, but the PC version is an atrocious port.
The game was stated to have numerous PC only things that only a PC could do obviously since consoles have a plethora of limitations. The most glaringly described thing the game was "supposed" to have was "Mouse Oriented Intuitive PC Menu Interface", anyone who has played the PC version would agree with me that, just isn't the case.
The menu is a disgusting Console port, not even well hidden as they accidently left in a few messages which blatantly say things like "Hit X" or "Press Right Joy" etc.
Not too mention how they delayed the PC release for "optimizations" yet all the "Optimizing" being done is by the community for simple PC tweeks that should have been included such as FOV, AA, Vsync, Binds, toggles, etc, etc, etc.
So DA:O did it right in my mind, in that department.
But I won't deny that the console market is COMPLETELY hindering PC gaming, with the Porting Issue being up there in my mind.
Some games these developers are releasing for the PC are just to get extra cash, with ******-poor ports, I can't even recall a well done port lately.
But thank God DA:O isn't a port.
Take a look at Borderlands for example, great game, but the PC version is an atrocious port.
The game was stated to have numerous PC only things that only a PC could do obviously since consoles have a plethora of limitations. The most glaringly described thing the game was "supposed" to have was "Mouse Oriented Intuitive PC Menu Interface", anyone who has played the PC version would agree with me that, just isn't the case.
The menu is a disgusting Console port, not even well hidden as they accidently left in a few messages which blatantly say things like "Hit X" or "Press Right Joy" etc.
Not too mention how they delayed the PC release for "optimizations" yet all the "Optimizing" being done is by the community for simple PC tweeks that should have been included such as FOV, AA, Vsync, Binds, toggles, etc, etc, etc.
So DA:O did it right in my mind, in that department.
But I won't deny that the console market is COMPLETELY hindering PC gaming, with the Porting Issue being up there in my mind.
Some games these developers are releasing for the PC are just to get extra cash, with ******-poor ports, I can't even recall a well done port lately.
#15
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 11:28
bjdbwea
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The answer to the thread's question is "yes, obviously", as least as far as RPGs such as this are concerned. They can only really work with a proper input system, and that means keyboard and mouse. While it would be totally possible to have these input devices on a console, it's unfortunately not standard and therefore severe compromises have to be made. I commend BioWare for not forcing PC gamers to live with all these compromises and for letting uns enjoy some of the advantages of the PC platform, but I have no doubt that the game's mechanics could've been a good deal better if it had concentrated on the PC. It was for a reason that the whole NWN series was exclusive to PC. On the other hand, we should not forget that without console sales, DA probably would never have been able to become that big and long (at least as long as we don't live in a perfect world where only PCs exist).
Only my opinion of course, not to take anything away from console gamers.
Only my opinion of course, not to take anything away from console gamers.
#16
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 02:23
lv427
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I don't think this is an issue for DA:O since it was created for PC first and ported to the consoles. They are two separate and distinct interfaces. I chose the console version because I prefer the console controls. I don't see them as limited, but streamlined to my liking. And I hope Bioware continues to do this with all of their games.
#17
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 02:28
SomeoneStoleMyName
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Console limits and flaws damage all games made on both pc and consoles. Its not an opinion but a fact. Games made on both couldve been so much more if made only for PC.
#18
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 02:47
xcorps
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Games made on both couldve been so much more if made only for PC.
But I won't deny that the console market is COMPLETELY hindering PC gaming, with the Porting Issue being up there in my mind.
Some games these developers are releasing for the PC are just to get extra cash, with ******-poor ports, I can't even recall a well done port lately.
These two quotes sum up the the answer to the OP perfectly. I think cross platforming is certainly a major drawback to the design and content of a game. It is however a major plus when it comes to supporting the design studio, as the extra sales help fill the coffers, hopefully to our benefit.
