50 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Warning: Spoilers ahead.

Note: Please note that I've not seen the rivalry relationship with every single companion, this is to note with what I've seen so far and heard about other people so what I say could be different than reality.

I'd like to see other people's thoughts on the system.

Basically, when it comes down to it, the relationship system is flawed. It's a great step-up from what we had in Origins, that it's nice being capable of speaking with companions who you oppose on every turn but it has a few flaws that really glared up when I tried playing the game "my way" and it forced me to metagame everything else to explore the relationships.

The flaw? Characters with more than one problem.

When you've got a character that has more than one feeling, they are suddenly very difficult to push down on either side. I'm trying to be anti-slavery but pro-mages on a single character, how does this effect my relationship with Fenris? He stays in the middle, the gains of approval and gains of rivalry push him down and up over and over again until I'm stuck in no-man's land.

How does one fix this ingame? They have to metagame, they either push Fenris out of the party and keep doing things to force him down one path only during his dialogue at the mansion (what I've done) or you change what you were doing (either go pro-slavery or anti-mages) to please him. The second option creates problems with any other companions you had which might influence how they react.

How does one fix this? There's quite a few ways, one of the extremes being that you create one dimensional characters but that's probably worse than the current idea because you can simply metagame to fix the problem.

(the next part is speculation using word of mouth and the walkthrough, not personal experience. I could be incorrect.)

There's also a few extra problems added a bit more on the rivalry system, if what I've heard and walkthrough is correct, where you're forced down a certain path in the ending if you'd like to conclude the romance you want. For example...

Fenris article: "If you are on the rivalry path, you must ally yourself with the templars. If you are on the friendship path, you can convince Fenris to stay if you choose to support the mages.

Merrill article: "If you are on the rival path, you will need to ally Hawke with the mages to guarantee that the romance reaches its optimum conclusion."

And I've heard that you're unable to romance Isabela at all if you're on rivalry, where it just allows you to do a quick fling. Why are there severe limitations on what the rivalry path can accomplish while the friendship path can remain open? Shouldn't somebody who supported Fenris and his anti-mage agenda have to ally with the templars to conclude his romance instead of being able to get away with siding with the mages, while the rivalry who sided with the mages at every turn would have Fenris not be surprised?

I believed the rivalry system was built to encourage doing the opposite of what companions wanted until they'd eventually reach with an understanding, shouldn't... they be more understanding of your decision if you opposed them all the game and then opposed what they wanted in the end, instead of supporting them at all times and suddenly finding out that you're opposing them?

Those are my thoughts. Wanted to share, how do you guys feel about it?

[Hedera]

My big flaw with the system is that you cannot keep the same party through the entire game and come out of it with any of your companions. You are forced to bring different companions to different quests in order to reach maximum friendship or rivalry in order for them not to all abandon you at the end of the game. I suppose it was done on purpose to make you actually USE companions, as opposed to the whole 'Morrigan disapproves my very existence, so I leave her in camp' thing, but I was a bit angry that Fenris and Aveline hit the road when I sided with the mages.

[Vandicus]

Actually I haven't really had a problem with the system. I didn't try to push either end of the system, and ended up with most everyone being maxed friendly with me besides Sebastian(because I constantly pushed him to lead Starkhaven). Sort of suprising to me. The system actually locks in friendship or rivalry once it hits max I believe.

[Vandicus]

cgrimm54 wrote...

My big flaw with the system is that you cannot keep the same party through the entire game and come out of it with any of your companions. You are forced to bring different companions to different quests in order to reach maximum friendship or rivalry in order for them not to all abandon you at the end of the game. I suppose it was done on purpose to make you actually USE companions, as opposed to the whole 'Morrigan disapproves my very existence, so I leave her in camp' thing, but I was a bit angry that Fenris and Aveline hit the road when I sided with the mages.

Woahhh, what? Its possible for them to leave if Hawke sides with the mages at the end? They stayed with my Hawke, probably cause of max friendship.

[RedWulfi]

Aveline and Fenris both stayed at my side when i chose the mages.

[RosaAquafire]

I didn't have MUCH problem with it. I had this problem with Aveline, swinging from friendship to rivalry, but it didn't bother me much. She and my Hawke just agreed on some things and disagreed on others.

I don't feel the name to "win" every companion, though. And maybe that's me being silly, because combat bonuses DO give a pretty clear win/lose condition. But you get them early on, and I know for a fact my best friend, a hardcore, always IC roleplayer, took Fenris with her constantly as a pro-mage, anti-slavery character and got him to 100 rivalry without breaking IC or metagaming or leaving him behind, so.

Apparently, it works if you keep someone around? Maybe?

[Isaidlunch]

I agree that the friendship/rivalry system has some problems, though my main problem was being nice vs disagreeing with their opinions. I hate that doing something jerkish like telling Fenris' master he can take him back and disagreeing with him respectfully over something both result in the same thing (rivalry points). I feel like they crammed what should have been two separate meters into one.

If I have to metagame to keep people on whatever side of the spectrum I want then the system has failed. I should be able to take Fenris on a mission where I free apostates without fear of "oh noes this would push Fenris out of friendship!". And I definitely shouldn't be thinking "Oh it doesn't matter, I romanced him so I have enough friendship points despite disagreeing completely with his beliefs on mages!" which defeats the whole supposed purpose of rivalry in the first place.

But yes, it's still better than Origins and I'm grateful for that.

[Annarl]

I agree with the OP. And it certainly is a step up from the DA:O system. Since its new, it doesn't seem to have some kinks worked out and the no man's land and the need to meta game it out is a big one.  I had the same problem as the OP, I was anti-slavery but pro-mage in my first play through. Maybe in other combinations it works better?

Modifié par omearaee, 13 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[Piecake]

I think they should have given a bonus if you were stuck in the middle so that some players didnt feel forced to meta game to get that bonus. I think if you tie the bonus to the completion of the companion's entire side quest where they then would be a "respectful and loyal companion" I think it would have worked better.

Basically, how ME2 did it. You make them loyal. If you became a full friend/rival, that would take precedence, but if you were stuck in the middle having an option to get a middle ground bonus by helping them out, completing their personal quests would have been nice.

This is not to say that I want everyone to remain in my party if I do all of their side quests and make them loyal (perhaps a better term would be that the player earns their respect), because if you make a decision that the companion strongly disagrees with, i think its good that a companion can leave your side. All this is is to provide a bonus(probably a weaker bonus since its easier and the feelings are less passionate) for companions stuck in the middle ground to help avoid that kind of meta gaming

[Dave of Canada]

Kazanth wrote...

I agree that the friendship/rivalry system has some problems, though my main problem was being nice vs disagreeing with their opinions. I hate that doing something jerkish like telling Fenris' master he can take him back and disagreeing with him respectfully over something both result in the same thing (rivalry points). I feel like they crammed what should have been two separate meters into one.

That's true, though I doubt they'd be able to do bars that cover up those systems. Like... sleeping with Ninette's prostitute lover or refusing a character's advances giving rivalry, which I found was rather odd because it felt more like a carry over of disapproval rather than something they'd disagree with me belief-wise.

[Nyaore]

cgrimm54 wrote...

My big flaw with the system is that you cannot keep the same party through the entire game and come out of it with any of your companions. You are forced to bring different companions to different quests in order to reach maximum friendship or rivalry in order for them not to all abandon you at the end of the game. I suppose it was done on purpose to make you actually USE companions, as opposed to the whole 'Morrigan disapproves my very existence, so I leave her in camp' thing, but I was a bit angry that Fenris and Aveline hit the road when I sided with the mages.

Really? Because no one abandoned me in the end game and outside of personal quests my team ALWAYS consisted of Aveline, Varric, and Merrill. About the only one who abandoned me was Isabela during Act 2, although she was at 75% friendship when she left, everyone else was up to nearly max friendship without so much as a fuss.

[Oneiropolos]

I was really frustrated my first playthrough by rivalry/friendship. I could NOT get Fenris to full rivalry, and so could not conclude my romance with him. Which just seemed... cheap. He was at like 90% rivalry. Varric even says Fenris stayed with me... even though he never came back from breaking up with me. It felt like too severe of limitations. Then there was "Wait, no, don't give me friendship for that!" elements. The gifts just make no sense too. I'm GLAD the game looked at my path and gave me rivalry based on the fact that's what I was pursuing, but I'm not sure what Merril found so rival-tastic about a wooden Halla I gave her. Friendship points would have undone when I was working on, so it was a good thing gameplay wise, but roleplay it was more, "How does THAT make sense? She dislikes me more for a gift she considers thoughtful and displays in her house later?"

[Urazz]

I had several characters at max friendship in my first playthrough. I had Bethany, Varric, Isabela, Anders, and Aveline maxed out on friendship. The only ones I didn't have maxed out was Fenris, Merril, and Sebastian and that was mainly because I never really used them much.  Fenris abandoned me at the end to be on the Templar's side but rejoined me.

Modifié par Urazz, 13 mars 2011 - 11:37 .

[tallon1982]

There's only one that will truly abandon you in the end depending on your choice and that's Seb. At least that's been my experience.

[Urazz]

tallon1982 wrote...

There's only one that will truly abandon you in the end depending on your choice and that's Seb. At least that's been my experience.

Yeah, he leaves you if you spare Anders after he destroys the chantry regardless of your friendship/rivalry level I heard.

[Isaidlunch]

Oneiropolos wrote...

I was really frustrated my first playthrough by rivalry/friendship. I could NOT get Fenris to full rivalry, and so could not conclude my romance with him. Which just seemed... cheap. He was at like 90% rivalry. Varric even says Fenris stayed with me... even though he never came back from breaking up with me.

Wow, if that's the reason for the missing Fenris romance scenes then I'm speechless. I thought it was just a bug but it's unbelievably stupid if you need a certain friendship/rivalry rating for it to continue. Looks like I'll have to resort to using the developer console next time I romance him.

Modifié par Kazanth, 13 mars 2011 - 11:44 .

[AtreiyaN7]

That's interesting. Fenris left temporarily after I sided with the mages, but he came back to my side when I talked to him after confronting Meredith. I was friendly with him, but I don't think I maxed it out. In a case like Sebastian, I maxed out my friendship, but since I was romancing Anders and supported him even after the Chantry incident, well, I wasn't surprised that Sebastian turned on me - couldn't kill Anders, heh. I think sometimes you can only push a person so far. Generaly, I tried to be true to my natural responses instead of meta-gaming. it seemed to work out. I was pro-mage anld anti-slavery all along as far as Fenris went. However, group mainly consisted of Varric, Anders and Sebastian. I used the others as necessary or when I thought it might be interesting to see their reactiona to specific situations.

[UNOSHI]

cgrimm54 wrote...

My big flaw with the system is that you cannot keep the same party through the entire game and come out of it with any of your companions. You are forced to bring different companions to different quests in order to reach maximum friendship or rivalry in order for them not to all abandon you at the end of the game. I suppose it was done on purpose to make you actually USE companions, as opposed to the whole 'Morrigan disapproves my very existence, so I leave her in camp' thing, but I was a bit angry that Fenris and Aveline hit the road when I sided with the mages.

well hearing the Avaline talking bout something that wasnt right something mages and same for Fenris i still sidded with mages and at some point Avaline said i see what your trying to do. im with you all the way. so Avaline didnt left me when i was with the mages and Fenris later rejoined me at the battle between mages and templers

[UNOSHI]

and oh yes my friendship with Isabella was 100% but i got no achievement for it. Varric said that every one left at a time except isabella and a new champion was made.. guess im having a baby but still...... no achievment no nthing just a one night fling

[Kenshen]

Vandicus wrote...

Actually I haven't really had a problem with the system. I didn't try to push either end of the system, and ended up with most everyone being maxed friendly with me besides Sebastian(because I constantly pushed him to lead Starkhaven). Sort of suprising to me. The system actually locks in friendship or rivalry once it hits max I believe.

Can anyone confrim this cause I don't think this is the case.

I liked how BW did the relationship system this time.  You are dealing with different people who think differently and don't always share the same values.  Fenris is pretty clear he is a mage hater and for good reason.  It doesn't make that much sense to bring him along if you are going to help mages.  Bethany, Isabella, and Varric are the only ones I got to max which made sense to me since one is my sister, second is a lover, and third is life long best friend.

[Isaidlunch]

aryon69 wrote...
 Fenris is pretty clear he is a mage hater
and for good reason.  It doesn't make that much sense to bring him along
if you are going to help mages.

But it works just fine if you also
treat him badly and tell him slavery is a-okay in
order to get full rivalry, how does that make any sense? if you do that
then you can take Fenris anywhere you like but if you happen to agree
with him on one thing and not the other you're stuck in-between or forced to meta game.

[bookwurmneo]

I think I can confirm this with aveline as after getting her full friendship I've done some shady things with her in the party and didn't receive any negative points. While agree it would better if the system wasn't one-dimensional, my main problem is that it's hard to gain friendship/rivalry if the character isn't in the party. While it is possible to go either way they aren't to many opportunities so if you don't choose and plan every encounter perfectly you will have problems. My other problem and what is tied to my previous one is that friendship/rivalry is given only to those present. One would think that word of my actions gets around so my companions who aren't with me would know what i was doing.

[Oneiropolos]

From the guide, confirmation about the lock on 100%:

*Developing the relationship gauge to +100 in either direction will "freeze" it in perpetuity and (Bethany and Caver excepted) unlock a special ability on the talent tree unique to Friendship or rivalry with the relevant companion. At this stage, further relationship adjustments are disabled: short of dismissal, betrayal or late-game plot developments, that companion will be completely dedicated to working with Hawke (as a friend or rival).

So it does freeze, and the late game developments are things like, you know, killing Anders, or not killing Anders in the case of Anders and Sebastian, or siding with the 'wrong' side on rivalry for the last bosses.

[Deztyn]

Act I my party was usually Anders, Bethany and Aveline/Fenris, Act II and III it was Anders, Merril, Aveline/Fenris. I ended up with 100% friendship for everyone but Merrill who was a 100% rival, and Isabella who left in Act II, but I never used her because I was playing a DW rogue and hardly talked to her. So entirely my fault there. I didn't metagame at all (Heck, I stopped reading stuff about DA2 months ago to avoid even mild spoilers.) So it's not impossible to do while staying in character.

Modifié par Deztyn, 14 mars 2011 - 07:39 .