50 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

I'm having a hell of a time just figuring out what some of my companions want. Aveline gives friend/rival points for the weirdest things and Isabela has ninjaed me with rivalry points as well. And Merrill? If I dare to be nice to her, agree with her, and let her do what she pleases that apparently makes me her rival. I find the whole system... rather odd.

[Maria Caliban]

The problem is not that the rivalry system is broken but that the characters are complex. If I were going to change anything, it would be to eliminate the mechanical bonuses for full friendship/ rivalry but keep the story ramifications.

Isabela is harder to romance than other companions in a number of ways. Why is that a bad thing?

The only thing forcing you to metagame is your desire for an outcome you've already selected. If you want to romance Fenris then you need to make a character Fenris would be attracted to.

[Kattack]

My first play through games are always "bad" in that I never ever worry about the consequences of my actions on anything and I just try to get used to the way the game works. So I never tried any tricks to get anyone to like me.
So I had party preferences, Isabella was always in my party because she was my favorite rogue and I needed her to open chests. Then I always had Anders in my party because he was my character's LI and I used him for healing. After that I switched between Merrill or Fenris depending on if I wanted a destructive mage or another warrior.
I sided with the mages, and refused to kill Anders so Sebastian ran away and I killed Fenris. Other than that I didn't lose or have to kill anyone.
All and all, I think it turned out fairly successful if I must say so myself. Certainly realistic anyway.

Besides, had I been in a rivalry relationship with Fenris and chosen the mages, I REALLY wouldn't expect him to stay with me. I see the rivalry relationships as the type of relationship that will, eventually, end explosively. What better way than at the end of the game when you have two very different ideals?

[Red Templar]

Agreed with the OP - definitely found that metagaming was necessary to push certain companions to either side. Anders and Merrill were particularly annoying. Anders was my healer, and thus followed me everywhere, and I fully expected him to be an easy rival based on my constant disagreement with him and my templar sympathy... except I was constantly gaining friendship points with the bloke for being anti-blood magic. So in order to push him further to rivalry, it is like I have to be both completely anti-mage and pro-templar, but at the same time be pro-blood magic.

I like the system, but it needs to be less counter intuitive. I would change it so that friendship and rivalry points don't cancel each other out - being on separate bars, like the ME paragon-renegade points - and that whichever bar was highest overrules the other one in terms of story considerations.

[Kenshen]

Kazanth wrote...

aryon69 wrote...
 Fenris is pretty clear he is a mage hater
and for good reason.  It doesn't make that much sense to bring him along
if you are going to help mages.

But it works just fine if you also
treat him badly and tell him slavery is a-okay in
order to get full rivalry, how does that make any sense? if you do that
then you can take Fenris anywhere you like but if you happen to agree
with him on one thing and not the other you're stuck in-between or forced to meta game.

I see what you mean but I still think that is working as intended.  I had the same problem with Fenris as you and at the end I probably was right where I started with his friendship.  You can tell him slavery is ok but that doesn't mean he is going to believe it and having said such a thing he will think less of you for it.   I understand how this is an issue for those that want to max out one way or the other.

[AlexXIV]

That's the general problem with DA. It was no different in DA:O. You can be anti mage and anti bloodmage but have Merril and anders friendship maxed. You just have to 'lie' to them. If they are not in your party they don't notice what you are doing which is a bit strange since they are all sort of friends, or at least friendly with Varric. So actually they all should know what Hawke is doing all the time. That would be more logical than just picking the personalities that suit your decision in the quest.

I had it with Merrill for example. I went with her in the group to the fade sequence thing where you help the dreamer. But I didn't want to take her with me. So I chose a party without her and got 25 rivalry poitns. So I loaded the last checkpoint before I talked to the elven woman, changed my party setup and then did it again and ... no rivalry from Merril. So basically you can just open the command console and cheat because you are not really doing anything other than cheating if you metagame your party setup.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 mars 2011 - 05:18 .

[reddragon567]

 Wait wait wait.

The relationship system, is flawed because characters aren't 2 dimentional?

Holy crap.

Modifié par reddragon567, 14 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[elirian_19]

Dave of Canada wrote...

There's also a few extra problems added a bit more on the rivalry system, if what I've heard and walkthrough is correct, where you're forced down a certain path in the ending if you'd like to conclude the romance you want. For example...

Fenris article: "If you are on the rivalry path, you must ally yourself with the templars. If you are on the friendship path, you can convince Fenris to stay if you choose to support the mages.

Merrill article: "If you are on the rival path, you will need to ally Hawke with the mages to guarantee that the romance reaches its optimum conclusion."

Huh? I was on full rivalry with Fenris, sided with the mages and was able to complete the romance.

I can't comment on Merrill, though.

[Bioras]

Wondering what you consider complete.

[elirian_19]

Bioras wrote...

Wondering what you consider complete.

Well, I got the romance conversation in the courtyard and the romance achievement. Apparently that's the end (content wise) of the romance...

[Arrtis]

I wish I could ****** everyone off at the same time.
Cannot do it though.

[Red Templar]

reddragon567 wrote...

 Wait wait wait.

The relationship system, is flawed because characters aren't 2 dimentional?

Holy crap.

It isn't that. The characters are great. It is just that how you progress your relationships with them sometimes feels counter-intuitive, and the need to metagame your way through them is still present to some degree.

[Icy Magebane]

Towards the end, I was getting kind of frustrated with Fenris. I played as a mage and kept trying to convince him that we weren't all bad, but he's extremely stubborn. I found myself avoiding bringing him on certain missions, but I needed him there because he was the only one who could do any decent stagger set-ups! And this is why I absolutely despise this kind of system. I played at a huge disadvantage when I didn't have the right party members, because there are no replacements. Why not just give us 2 characters with the same skills so that if one of them is annoying, they are free to go because we have a back-up? I didn't really expect him to leave at the end or anything, but I'm just glad I took the time to max his friendship long before the end of the third act. I wouldn't have even cared about Fenris if they hadn't stolen Carver.... bah...

This kind of system is interesting in theory, but it only works if there are several companions that can replace the ones you don't want to deal with...

[elirian_19]

I wondered if I just happened to stumble upon a bug regarding Fenris and the mages, but then I found this on the wiki:

"If Hawke sides with the mages in the final battle, Fenris may pit himself against the champion, and Hawke may be forced to kill him. This can be avoided if all of his quests are resolved and Hawke has a 100% friend or rival status with Fenris."

[TyDurden13]

Sabariel wrote...

I'm having a hell of a time just figuring out what some of my companions want. Aveline gives friend/rival points for the weirdest things and Isabela has ninjaed me with rivalry points as well. And Merrill? If I dare to be nice to her, agree with her, and let her do what she pleases that apparently makes me her rival. I find the whole system... rather odd.

Well, first of all I agree with Maria's post.  It's a GOOD thing if characters are complex and it's not just a simple path to push them down the friendship/rivalry path.  And yeag The real solution would be to keep the story consequences in, but remove the gameplay bonus being tied to relationship.  perhaps the gameplay bonus could be tied to the completion of the personal quest..

But back to this post - I DID think that it was confusing w/r/t what companions approved or disapproved of.  Merrill and mostly and Isabela a little bit.  I like when characters have more than one motive or defining trait, but shere may have been more clarity needed in what made those characetrs angry/happy.  The others I thought were clearly explained - Fenris hates slavers and mages, Sebastian is a devout Chantry brother, Avelline is by-the-book and has little patience for sarcasm, Varric wants to joke around with you, etc.

[templar706]

I agree. It should be the other way round- Instead of you must join templars if you are a rival with Fenris it should be you must join templars if you are friends with Fenris and then if you are rivals you can choose mages as you have effectively change his viewpoints.

[anzurose]

I had the same problem, but I understand it? I figure, it's just being more realistic to the character. Yes, it was frustrating for Fenris to betray me but maybe that's what would have happened if I was there! It's roleplaying, and I think the more I play the more I'll metagame and play towards what people want.

But yes, I had the same problem with Fenris. I helped my fellow mages but I was kind towards slaves. I also had the same problem with Isabella, I would get friendship points for being nice to her, but then rivalry for being a stick in the mud. In the end, I didn't make enough headway in the friendship direction to stop her from abandoning me :'(

My poor Aurora Hawke... unrequited love, at its cruelest.

[Vaemer-Riit]

What might be interesting would be to have an independent bar for each Topic and have 2 to 3 topics per character.
The individual topics are a measure of how much the characters agree with the PC (or disagree) while the Effective Friend/Rival bar would be how much the character likes the PC overall.


Say for Anders:
Stance On Mages
Stance On Blood Magic

Or for Merrill:
Stance On Mages
Stance On Elves

Then when you do something to affect their friendship/rivalry bar it applies it to the correct bar. Each bar could be weighted, say a Primary Topic could be worth 1.5x and a secondary topic could be worth 1x and a tertiary Topic could be worth 0.5x.

For your actual Friend/Rival score the game could just add the bars.
example:
Say you have Merrill and you like mages but not elves (assuming that + is Friendship and - is Rival).
Original Bonuses
Stance On Mages: +50
Stance On Elves: -50

And lets say that Stance on Mages is the Primary Topic
Weighted Friend/Rival Bars
Stance On Mages: +75
Stance On Elves: -50

Effective Friend/Rival bar (used to determine story paths and gameplay bonuses)
Friend/Rival: +25

Modifié par Vaemer-Riit, 14 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[Lawlita]

I metagamed and didn't mind it (as annoying as running out of a dungeon, then back to world map exit, then back to a party swap board in town was), but I will say I was relieved when the ratings finally locked.

Isabela was hardest for me to read, and I'm not sure if I could've locked that one without having her along in the Fade. Aveline respects the spirit of the law more than the letter of the law, so it was slow going with her while supporting the mages but I still maxed her before all but Bethany.

[GregoriusMaximus]

Dave of Canada wrote...

When you've got a character that has more than one feeling, they are suddenly very difficult to push down on either side. I'm trying to be anti-slavery but pro-mages on a single character, how does this effect my relationship with Fenris? He stays in the middle, the gains of approval and gains of rivalry push him down and up over and over again until I'm stuck in no-man's land.

How does one fix this ingame? They have to metagame, they either push Fenris out of the party and keep doing things to force him down one path only during his dialogue at the mansion (what I've done) or you change what you were doing (either go pro-slavery or anti-mages) to please him. The second option creates problems with any other companions you had which might influence how they react.

I had exactly this experience.

[White_Buffalo94]

I just went with how I'd handle any real life situation and Sebastian is deep in rivalry and Fenris is the only companion who isn't maxed at friendship.

[Kenshen]

elirian_19 wrote...

I wondered if I just happened to stumble upon a bug regarding Fenris and the mages, but then I found this on the wiki:

"If Hawke sides with the mages in the final battle, Fenris may pit himself against the champion, and Hawke may be forced to kill him. This can be avoided if all of his quests are resolved and Hawke has a 100% friend or rival status with Fenris."

Well I can tell you that is wrong.  i was no where close to max friend or rival and still was able to talk him back to my side (as a rogue if that mattered).  Matter of fact I was probably still right in the middle of the bar with him.  Like most here I would gain 5 friend then 10 rival back and forth.

[Heidenreich]

The trick, is to read the quests. Then, as Hawk, say "Hey, which one of my friends would like to come play 'kill the bad guy' today?"

I always brought Varic along for Main Plot quests, and did liberal swapping of Fenris, Merill, and Isabela depending upon what the quest involved. Avaline and Anders were staples, because Avaline is the ****, and Anders is funny (more so in the first two acts) and my LI in my mage play through.

"Oh, a templar sent me a letter. Probably has to do with mages. I wonder if Anders is busy?"

Roleplay, not meta game ;p

Modifié par Heidenreich, 14 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[elirian_19]

aryon69 wrote...

elirian_19 wrote...

I wondered if I just happened to stumble upon a bug regarding Fenris and the mages, but then I found this on the wiki:

"If Hawke sides with the mages in the final battle, Fenris may pit himself against the champion, and Hawke may be forced to kill him. This can be avoided if all of his quests are resolved and Hawke has a 100% friend or rival status with Fenris."

Well I can tell you that is wrong.  i was no where close to max friend or rival and still was able to talk him back to my side (as a rogue if that mattered).  Matter of fact I was probably still right in the middle of the bar with him.  Like most here I would gain 5 friend then 10 rival back and forth.

The wiki does say that you can convince him to rejoin you. I probably should have mentioned that.

Modifié par elirian_19, 14 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[Isaidlunch]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The only thing forcing you to metagame is your desire for an outcome you've already selected. If you want to romance Fenris then you need to make a character Fenris would be attracted to.

Why would Fenris not be attracted to someone who disagrees with him on some things rather than someone who disagrees with him on nothing or everything? I would have thought he'd find someone who tells his master he can take him back and takes an elven slave without paying them into his home so disgusting that Fenris couldn't stand him/her. But because of the rivalry system people who do things like that get a complete romance anyway.

At least I know what to avoid on my real playthrough so I don't mind that much.