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[Vylan Antagonist]

Your character's religion isn't a binary value. It also probably needn't be static.



Andraste is a real historical figure in Dragon Age and one particularly cherished by Fereldan since she was from their ancestral tribe (1) and waged a surprisingly successful campaign against the Tevinter Imperium (2). Her gospel (the chant of light) provides an explanation for the Darkspawn and presumably gave hope to all the people subjugated by the magocracy of the time. Considering how fearful the blight surely is, the populace is likely to cling to the hope of the chantry's words now more than ever. How much your character believes is likely to change over the course of the game, perhaps in multiple directions.



Interestingly, Andraste was the goddess invoked by Boudica when she began her insurgence against the Romans occupying her country at the time. Andraste and the chantry have a number of Christ and christian parallels (the Archon being like Longinus, the schism over Andraste's divinity, crucifixion, the wife of the maker, etc).

[Houkka]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

That's still pretty close minded...

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

You can have an open mind without letting everyone in. It's your mind, you get to decide who you let in and who you kick out if they become a problem.

[Arconi4n03]

Houkka wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

That's still pretty close minded...

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

You can have an open mind without letting everyone in. It's your mind, you get to decide who you let in and who you kick out if they become a problem.

Ah, but if you insist on not letting anyone in until they show you undeniable, tangible  proof of their existance it's going to be pretty lonely in there.

[LdyShayna]

It has been noted before that you will not be able to express an atheistic view point in the game, but neither will you have to choose to support the Chantry.

[Ub3r_]

Two of the specializations are sided with the demons, the Blood Mage and the Reaver

[Houkka]

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Ah, but if you insist on not letting anyone in until they show you undeniable, tangible  proof of their existance it's going to be pretty lonely in there.

Oh no, I'm good with just sensory or logical evidence. No need to bring DNA samples or fossils along with you. As there is no absolute certainty on anything - nor will there ever be - I'd be stupid to expect such a thing. High probability is enough for me.

[LaztRezort]

Houkka wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Ah, but if you insist on not letting anyone in until they show you undeniable, tangible  proof of their existance it's going to be pretty lonely in there.

Oh no, I'm good with just sensory or logical evidence. No need to bring DNA samples or fossils along with you. As there is no absolute certainty on anything - nor will there ever be - I'd be stupid to expect such a thing. High probability is enough for me.

Agree.  I think people often confuse "evidence" with "proof."  Proofs are for mathematics.  Evidence (in the loose sense) is for rational thought.

OT, I'm interested in seeing how Leliana's religion plays out for her.  Sounds like a Joan of Arc type parallel going on there.  Will she be let down by the Maker, or vindicated in the end?

[Vylan Antagonist]

Well then, um, Houkka, break the 4th wall. You know empirically that these characters and their entire world are indeed fabrications of the Maker(s), created for the amusement of beings outside of their reality.



Or, if your character isn't quite mad enough to be able to perceive that accurate a reality, remember that the blights are real, darkspawn are real, Tevinter was real, and Andraste was real. Even the golden city can be glimpsed from within the Fade. Whether all of these pieces are put together precisely as the Chantry has assembled them, on the other hand, is another matter...

[Maria Caliban]

Mihilz wrote...

BTW is the Maker a real thing in the game or is he merely believed in by the Chantry? The Imperial Chantry doesn't think he's real do they?

We don't know if the Maker is real. The Imperial Chantry believes in the Maker. If they didn't believe in the Maker, they wouldn't be the Chantry.

The Imperial Chantry doesn't believe that Andreste was his choosen wife.

[Arconi4n03]

Houkka wrote...

Arconi4n03 wrote...

Ah, but if you insist on not letting anyone in until they show you undeniable, tangible  proof of their existance it's going to be pretty lonely in there.

Oh no, I'm good with just sensory or logical evidence. No need to bring DNA samples or fossils along with you. As there is no absolute certainty on anything - nor will there ever be - I'd be stupid to expect such a thing. High probability is enough for me.

Ok, then I didn't understand your first post and we're pretty much in agreement there ^^.

[Haasth]

I wasn't trying to sparkle a debate between being Open Minded and Close Minded here! At any rate, I really got to look into the religions in Dragon Age a bit more to figure out what I would go for, and how would follow it.



Perhaps a question people here can answer; Does Reaver and Blood Mage -force- you to follow said religion with the Demons? I was thinking of taking Blood Mage partly, but more of a... well... 'accidental' gift? Not sure how to word it, but basically I wouldn't see my character side himself with the demons.

[Varenus Luckmann]

otaker wrote...
[...]

Does anyone know if it's possible to play as an Dalish Elf, believing in the elven pantheon? With no humans/dwarfs etc in group?

Well, I would presume so, since you're allowed to play a dalish elf with the bloody gods tattoo'd over your bloody face!

The tattoos dalish elfs are allowed to have on character creation are symbols of their gods, so I would assume that is a definite 'yes' to your question. I actually think it's harder if you want to play an atheist dalish elf. I'd find that very strange.

[HeathenKing]

The writers have often stated that the Chantry is faith-based, therefore it has just as much truth as real-world religions.

...Which is none.

[Maria Caliban]

Haasth wrote...

Perhaps a question people here can answer; Does Reaver and Blood Mage -force- you to follow said religion with the Demons? I was thinking of taking Blood Mage partly, but more of a... well... 'accidental' gift? Not sure how to word it, but basically I wouldn't see my character side himself with the demons.

A demon is just a spirit from the Fade. The Chantry claims the Maker created them, but they're no more evidence of his existence than humans, dwarves, and elves are.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Maria Caliban wrote...
We don't know if the Maker is real. The Imperial Chantry believes in the Maker. If they didn't believe in the Maker, they wouldn't be the Chantry.

The Imperial Chantry doesn't believe that Andreste was his choosen wife.

As I understood it, the debate was never over wheter or not Andraste was his chosen wife or not, but over the supposed divinity (or lack thereof) of Andraste.

Similar to many early christian scholars argued not over wheter or not Jesus was chosen by god, but wheter or not he actually was god.

What I don't understand is the choice of making the Tevinter Divine ('male divine', 'Black Divine', 'the Tevinter Divine', whatever) consistantly a male. I would've understood if the difference was that the Chantry of Andraste (the Chantry religion practiced in most of Thedas, outside Tevinter) always had a female Divine, while the Imperial Chantry had both male and female - since they never accepted the divinity of Andraste. What ecclesiastical foundation are there for an only-male divines?

Just a loose question. I am fairly confident that no-one has the answer. Best case scenario Gaider comes in and tells us. Worst case scenario he's not even sure himself and only did it to put the Imperial Chantry and the Andraste Chantry further at odds without any more thought behind it.

Here's hoping for best case.

HeathenKing wrote...

The writers have often stated that the Chantry is faith-based, therefore it has just as much truth as real-world religions.
...Which is none.

A lack of evidence does not make something untrue.
Therefore, just because something is based on faith, the anthesis of evidence, doesn't make it untrue.

What the Chantry believes in may very well be true. It may also be a complete lie based on dubious historical records and stoned prophets. I think that some of the point behind the chantry is that they're supposed to be ambigious with the faith/truth. This is probably also why there's no priestly magics in the settings. The Chantry's explenation to that is that the Maker has turned away from the world. It may also be because he never existed.

This sorta reminds me of Gannayev-of-Dreams, who was an atheist. To deny the existance of gods in DnD is wholly retarded. But in Dragon Age, it's got a bit of a basis to it. Remember though that some of what the Chantry teaches is either shrouded completely in mystery or somewhat confirmed. There are demons. The Fade is very, very real, and there is a Black City in the distance.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 29 octobre 2009 - 03:25 .

[LdyShayna]

Haasth wrote...
Perhaps a question people here can answer; Does Reaver and Blood Mage -force- you to follow said religion with the Demons? I was thinking of taking Blood Mage partly, but more of a... well... 'accidental' gift? Not sure how to word it, but basically I wouldn't see my character side himself with the demons.

To my knowledge, there is no religion based around the worship of these demons.  You may have to make a "deal with the devil" to get these abilities, however, I'm not sure. 

Also, a small reminder to the rest of the thread - discussion of the religions and beliefs of people in Thedas is one thing, but do try to keep pronouncements about real world religions out of it as much as possible. 

[Maria Caliban]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...


What I don't understand is the choice of making the Tevinter Divine ('male divine', 'Black Divine', 'the Tevinter Divine', whatever) consistantly a male. I would've understood if the difference was that the Chantry of Andraste (the Chantry religion practiced in most of Thedas, outside Tevinter) always had a female Divine, while the Imperial Chantry had both male and female - since they never accepted the divinity of Andraste. What ecclesiastical foundation are there for an only-male divines?

As I understand it, the Imperium was male-dominated long before the Chantry came into being. Their rationale is that the Maker is male therefore his representative on [earth] should be as well.

[pharos_gryphon]

Something that might help here is to think of feudal Europe, which the setting draws a decent amount of inspiration from. The Catholic Church at the time was all but omnipresent. It didn't matter whether you believed in it or not, it was the only religion you'd ever been exposed to. They had influence over countless kingdoms, their clergy was everywhere and their litanies were largely misunderstood or unlearned by the lower classes. The Crusades illustrated quite well the depths and lengths to which zealotry can drive a person, as well as the Spanish Inquisition, both of which might serve as moderate references for the Chantry's interaction with Mages and magic in general.



I guess my point is, regardless of whether you believe in the Chantry edicts or no, as a Human or City Elf it would permeate the culture you've grown up in. Cursing, sayings, gestures, superstitions... You can not believe in the Maker, but some of those trappings will undoubtedly cling to you. As was said before, you can't quite be an atheist, but you don't have to throw your support in for the Chantry either. Most folks, as with anything, will fall somewhere in the middle.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As I understand it, the Imperium was male-dominated long before the Chantry came into being. Their rationale is that the Maker is male therefore his representative on [earth] should be as well.

That actually makes perfect sense. Wheras the Andraste Chantry Divine is the earthly representation of Andraste, the Imperial Chantry Divine claims the title as an earthly representation of the Maker himself - is that what you're saying? Because if it is, I completely agree that it's a perfectly valid explenation.

Do I hear an upcoming wedding? Clearly, they're chosen for eachother.

[HeathenKing]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
A lack of evidence does not make something untrue.
Therefore, just because something is based on faith, the anthesis of evidence, doesn't make it untrue.

What the Chantry believes in may very well be true. It may also be a complete lie based on dubious historical records and stoned prophets. I think that some of the point behind the chantry is that they're supposed to be ambigious with the faith/truth. This is probably also why there's no priestly magics in the settings. The Chantry's explenation to that is that the Maker has turned away from the world. It may also be because he never existed.

This sorta reminds me of Gannayev-of-Dreams, who was an atheist. To deny the existance of gods in DnD is wholly retarded. But in Dragon Age, it's got a bit of a basis to it. Remember though that some of what the Chantry teaches is either shrouded completely in mystery or somewhat confirmed. There are demons. The Fade is very, very real, and there is a Black City in the distance.

There could be a simulanious explosion of leeches from every atheist's anus in a single day, that wouldn't prove a specific god. The christians would be crying that their god is proven, as would the muslims, and any other religion which condemns disbelief. And I wasn't seriously stating that a lack of evidence equats to certain untruth. I was really just making a joke. Honestly, the chantry is much more likely than real-world religions to be true. Because it's in a work of fantasy, where religion belongs.

[Varenus Luckmann]

HeathenKing wrote...
There could be a simulanious explosion of leeches from every atheist's anus in a single day, that wouldn't prove a specific god. The christians would be crying that their god is proven, as would the muslims, and any other religion which condemns disbelief. And I wasn't seriously stating that a lack of evidence equats to certain untruth. I was really just making a joke. Honestly, the chantry is much more likely than real-world religions to be true. Because it's in a work of fantasy, where religion belongs.

I completely agree. It belongs there, together with atheism.

[LdyShayna]

One last warning - debating real world religious beliefs is off topic and not welcome here.

[SheffSteel]

Given that magic is real and demons are known to exist, it seems more rational to believe in the existence of a Maker than not to. However, that's not to say that atheists could not choose to believe whatever they wish to. That is inherent in the nature of faith - it is a belief position that is taken without regard to the evidence

[izariluneh]

i like religion in RPG games because i like sci-fi,but if they give an option not to follow anyone but your own moralthe better.

Modifié par izariluneh, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:41 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

LdyShayna wrote...
One last warning - debating real world religious beliefs is off topic and not welcome here.

Please be
careful with that hammer of yours. It's sorta hard to discuss the Chantry without drawing parallells to middle-age christianity or discuss any fantasy religion, especially when they so prominently draw on real-life religions.

SheffSteel wrote...
Given that magic is real and demons are known to exist, it seems more rational to believe in the existence of a Maker than not to. However, that's not to say that atheists could not choose to believe whatever they wish to. That is inherent in the nature of faith - it is a belief position that is taken without regard to the evidence

Yes, but on the other hand, animals exist. Elves exist. Humans exist. Are they proof of the Maker? Demons are just another aspect of creation. Wheter there is a rational explanation or if it is as the Chantry teaches us - can we really judge?

Of course, if you ask me, the Maker is a lie and the Chantry needs to be stabbed in the eye. Fen'Harel will one day see the error of his ways and release our gods. When the last of the elvhenan stand crying before the sky, in their final hour, he will realize that the beauty of the elvhenan woman must never fade from creation.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 29 octobre 2009 - 05:01 .