140 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcy1000]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I completely agree. It belongs there, together with atheism.

I disagree. If that fantasy world hasn't gone through a renaissance, a reformation, an age of enlightenment, and all the chaos and conflict that comes with them than I can't see a good argument for the inclusion of atheism.

Modifié par Mcy1000, 29 octobre 2009 - 05:15 .

[joriandrake]

Icinix wrote...

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

If you call your Character Tom Cruise or John Travolta you will unlock a special Quest where you will be worshipped ^^

..but you in turn have to worship lord Zeemu?

nah, but Tiax

[LdyShayna]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...
One last warning - debating real world religious beliefs is off topic and not welcome here.

Please be
careful with that hammer of yours. It's sorta hard to discuss the Chantry without drawing parallells to middle-age christianity or discuss any fantasy religion, especially when they so prominently draw on real-life religions.

And I think it's possible to do so without all of the needlessly normative statements that have repeatedly cropped up in this thread. 

[mr_luga]

Back in medival times, being religious was as normal as eating I think. For majority of the "civilized" areas anyway, but yeah, having a choice would be nice. But I wont be bothered if my character belived in gods, they are alot more "apparent" in the old times from what history seem to tell

[TuringPoint]

The key is: The Chantry is not Christianity. There are similarities, but there are no complete parallels. There was sacrifice by the person who spread the Maker's religion, but it was by a "war-like woman," not a "peaceful male Jew." The existence of the Fade and Darkspawn are the main reason for the Chantry and belief in the Maker to exist in Thedas; real-world Christianity focuses on saving every person's soul. There is quite a difference there. If Chantry beliefs or anything similar had existed in real life, they would be what we now consider pagan, or they would be forgotten.

[TuringPoint]

LdyShayna wrote...

It has been noted before that you will not be able to express an atheistic view point in the game, but neither will you have to choose to support the Chantry.

Even if the Chantry of Thedas is as widespread as medieval Christianity was in real life, there were still plenty of people who didn't actively advocate their belief in it, in the medieval "Christian" world.

After all, it was assumed.

Modifié par Alocormin, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:02 .

[HeathenKing]

SheffSteel wrote...

Given that magic is real and demons are known to exist, it seems more rational to believe in the existence of a Maker than not to. However, that's not to say that atheists could not choose to believe whatever they wish to. That is inherent in the nature of faith - it is a belief position that is taken without regard to the evidence

Magic and demons of sorts could exist without the divine. We could find packs of unicorns in our backyards tomorrow, and that would not be evidence for anything other than the existance of unicorns.

Modifié par HeathenKing, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:03 .

[joriandrake]

one can't be an atheist if all around him there is evidence about the existence of otherwordly beings and magic





and in my personal opinion I kinda am annoyed that some atheists try to unrealisticly include their opinion even into games that are not fit for them, this is not a steam/cyberpunk setting

[TuringPoint]

Shayna did say not to discuss real-life religion here.  I would say that means inclusion of prejudice against Christians, Atheists, Muslims...

Modifié par Alocormin, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:06 .

[joriandrake]

Alocormin wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

It has been noted before that you will not be able to express an atheistic view point in the game, but neither will you have to choose to support the Chantry.

Even if the Chantry of Thedas is as widespread as medieval Christianity was in real life, there were still plenty of people who didn't actively advocate their belief in it, in the medieval "Christian" world.

After all, it was assumed.

The medieval christian world had no darkspawn to protect said world from and thus proving the existence of God who gives them might against Evil, here is nothing assumed, its proved.

Alocormin wrote...

Shayna did say not to discuss
real-life religion here.  I would say that means inclusion of prejudice
against Christians, Atheists, Muslims...

Then maybe don't mention real-life faiths in the first place, no?

Modifié par joriandrake, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:09 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

Mcy1000 wrote...
I disagree. If that fantasy world hasn't gone through a renaissance, a reformation, an age of enlightenment, and all the chaos and conflict that comes with them than I can't see a good argument for the inclusion of atheism

It was more of a comment on the comment that religion belongs in fantasy. Atheism, which is also based largely on faith or belief, does too. This doesn't necessitate a correlation to the Dragon Age setting.

Widespread atheism without some kind of developed scientific community or "enlightenment" age would indeed be really, really wierd. But it doesn't really mean that Dragon Age, or any other setting, haven't already had one of those - only that it was set much "earlier" (relatively speaking, of course) than our own.

joriandrake wrote...
The medieval christian world had no darkspawn to protect said world from and thus proving the existence of God who gives them might against Evil, here is nothing assumed, its proved.

No, they had turks instead.

Seriously, the Maker doesn't grant any divine spells, much like the the christian god. If all you're arguing over is how faith gives them might, you could argue the same thing for the medieval christian church. The Maker offers no tangible evidence of his own existance.

Icinix wrote...
nah, but Tiax

Tiax sees all!

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:17 .

[SheffSteel]

Sorry if I didn't state my position more clearly. I feel that in a world where the supernatural and the existence of supernatural beings can so easily be demonstrated, belief in a deity is much more rational compared to an atheistic standpoint. That's not to say that one must believe the teaching of a specific group such as the Chantry.

[TuringPoint]

Here's another possible take on this.

If anything, living in a world with magic might weaken my desire to believe in any one deity; there are so many powerfully destructive and creative forces, who's to say God has anything to do with anything?  Why believe in miracles if its as simple as someone being a magic user, or not being a magic user?

Modifié par Alocormin, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:11 .

[HeathenKing]

joriandrake wrote...

The medieval christian world had no darkspawn to protect said world from and thus proving the existence of God who gives them might against Evil, here is nothing assumed, its proved.

The hell are you talking about??

[joriandrake]

SheffSteel wrote...

Sorry if I didn't state my position more clearly. I feel that in a world where the supernatural and the existence of supernatural beings can so easily be demonstrated, belief in a deity is much more rational compared to an atheistic standpoint. That's not to say that one must believe the teaching of a specific group such as the Chantry.

Yes, it would create a scenario something like:

- Atheist: There is no Creator, that is all fake!
- Citizen: Yep, just as the knight who used her blessed Holy Sword to defeat the darkspawn who nearly overrun our village.
- Atheist: The knight is real, but the Creator is not!
- Citizen: Then tell me, who blessed the sword?
- Atheist: Umm, the knight might have dragon blood in her and casted a spell on the sword!
- Citizen: And what do you think is magic, and what created it?
- Atheist: Uh, there has to be a plausible answer for that.
- Citizen: Whatever

HeathenKing wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

The
medieval christian world had no darkspawn to protect said world from
and thus proving the existence of God who gives them might against
Evil, here is nothing assumed, its proved.

The hell are you talking about?? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png

I talk about the obvious otherworldy powers that are used by the Church
of DA to stop Evil and save even the skins of "atheists" who might not
apreciate it, not to mention other Gods like the elven pantheon

The people will of course support anything that protects them from all possible dangers, like the Templars who are keeping an eye on mages to deny them a chance to become corrupted like the original darkspawn. Even if not all of them have noble and honourable goals, they will be glorified by the people and won't be questioned.

Modifié par joriandrake, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:24 .

[HeathenKing]

joriandrake wrote...
Yes, it would create a scenario something like:

- Atheist: There is no Creator, that is all fake!
- Citizen: Yep, just as the knight who used her blessed Holy Sword to defeat the darkspawn who nearly overrun our village.
- Atheist: The knight is real, but the Creator is not!
- Citizen: Then tell me, who blessed the sword?
- Atheist: Umm, the knight might have dragon blood in her and casted a spell on the sword!
- Citizen: And what do you think is magic, and what created it?
- Atheist: Uh, there has to be a plausible answer for that.
- Citizen: Whatever

If the hand of god himself came from the heavens and destroyed the darkspawn, then you'd have a point. But when humans mumble to themselves, then do things by themselves, that is not proof of anything other than the fact that the human was a capable warrior. And I'll just ignore your posts from here on out, because I have a strong feeling that you might be under 12 years old.

[Taleroth]

joriandrake wrote...

one can't be an atheist if all around him there is evidence about the existence of otherwordly beings and magic

An atheist does not inherently deny the existence of magic and otherworlds, they simply do not believe in god.

Considering "the Maker" is not present, it's fitting to believe he never existed in the first place.

- Atheist: There is no Creator, that is all fake!
- Citizen: Yep, just as the knight who used her blessed Holy Sword to defeat the darkspawn who nearly overrun our village.
- Atheist: The knight is real, but the Creator is not!
- Citizen: Then tell me, who blessed the sword?
- Atheist: Umm, the knight might have dragon blood in her and casted a spell on the sword!
- Citizen: And what do you think is magic, and what created it?
- Atheist: Uh, there has to be a plausible answer for that.
- Citizen: Whatever

Nonsense.  The Maker isn't blessing the sword.  Even the Chantry has declared that the Maker turned from humans.  He's not an active force.

Modifié par Taleroth, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:27 .

[joriandrake]

HeathenKing wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
Yes, it would create a scenario something like:

- Atheist: There is no Creator, that is all fake!
- Citizen: Yep, just as the knight who used her blessed Holy Sword to defeat the darkspawn who nearly overrun our village.
- Atheist: The knight is real, but the Creator is not!
- Citizen: Then tell me, who blessed the sword?
- Atheist: Umm, the knight might have dragon blood in her and casted a spell on the sword!
- Citizen: And what do you think is magic, and what created it?
- Atheist: Uh, there has to be a plausible answer for that.
- Citizen: Whatever

If the hand of god himself came from the heavens and destroyed the darkspawn, then you'd have a point. But when humans mumble to themselves, then do things by themselves, that is not proof of anything other than the fact that the human was a capable warrior. And I'll just ignore your posts from here on out, because I have a strong feeling that you might be under 12 years old.

actually I am 25 and I am not bothered by your pety insults

and you just want to stay blind to the fact that

a. where magic exists there is no real place for atheism
b. if someone saves you then you are unlikely to criticize his beliefs, actually if hundreds of knights chanting the name of "Mickey Mouse" would save you and your home from certain doom than in medieval times its likely that the citizens of your home would even build a temple to "Mickey Mouse" afterwards.

Taleroth wrote...
Nonsense.  The Maker isn't blessing the
sword.  Even the Chantry has declared that the Maker turned from
humans.  He's not an active force.

that is my usual comment if anyone ever wants to speak about atheism in a fantasy world
it is not specific to DA, but if you want it that badly than I point out to the fact that while the Chantry said the Maker turned away, that statement in itself proves his existence at the same time

Modifié par joriandrake, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:32 .

[Taleroth]

joriandrake wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
Nonsense.  The Maker isn't blessing the
sword.  Even the Chantry has declared that the Maker turned from
humans.  He's not an active force.

that is my usual comment if anyone ever wants to speak about atheism in a fantasy world
it is not specific to DA, but if you want it that badly than I point out to the fact that while the Chantry said the Maker turned away, that statement in itself proves his existence at the same time

It only proves the Chantry believes he exists.  But they are attempting to explain why he does absolutely nothing to make his presence known.  Excuse for inaction does not prove existence in any form.  I can give you an excuse for why you don't see Manbearpigs around, such as "they hiding on the moon, trying not to be seen, but they used to hang around us, I swear."  This does not prove Manbearpigs are real.


There are countless fantasy settings where magic does not denote gods.  Where magic is independent of gods.  Some where magic is described almost scientific.  But surely we do not count science as making the existence of god undeniable.  Or even gods are opposed to magic, thus setting it as something contrary to gods, and obviously not enabled by them.

And even in a setting where gods are active, atheists can exist as questioners of doctrine, and deniers of worship.   Such as how a democrat can live under a fascist monarchy.

Modifié par Taleroth, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:42 .

[TuringPoint]

This is such a complicated topic. Saying atheism couldn't exist is nonsense; saying Thedas should reflect the widespread nature of modern atheism is also nonsense, but is anyone saying there should be widespread atheism in Thedas?

[Varenus Luckmann]

SheffSteel wrote...

Sorry if I didn't state my position more clearly. I feel that in a world where the supernatural and the existence of supernatural beings can so easily be demonstrated, belief in a deity is much more rational compared to an atheistic standpoint. That's not to say that one must believe the teaching of a specific group such as the Chantry.

Except that the meaning of "supernatural" is entirely subjective. What is natural to the Theodosians is supernatural to us. In Thedas, magic could be considered a different science. Demons are just another kind of being.

The supernatural is all around them? No, I claim that the supernatural are all around us!

[JTwizzy88]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Sorry if I didn't state my position more clearly. I feel that in a world where the supernatural and the existence of supernatural beings can so easily be demonstrated, belief in a deity is much more rational compared to an atheistic standpoint. That's not to say that one must believe the teaching of a specific group such as the Chantry.

Except that the meaning of "supernatural" is entirely subjective. What is natural to the Theodosians is supernatural to us. In Thedas, magic could be considered a different science. Demons are just another kind of being.

The supernatural is all around them? No, I claim that the supernatural are all around us!

That's ridiculous, the word supernatural refers to an order of existence beyond the scientific universe.  Since magic exists in Thedas and MAGIC by its very definition is clearly supernatural then it would imply that other supernatural creations and entities (such as gods) quite likely exist. 

FYI the meaning of supernatural is not subjective unless the laws of science in any given universe are somehow changed to account for things such as demons and magic.  As far as we know, Thedas has the same scientific laws as our universe.

SheffSteel wrote...

Sorry if I didn't state my position
more clearly. I feel that in a world where the supernatural and the
existence of supernatural beings can so easily be demonstrated, belief
in a deity is much more rational compared to an atheistic standpoint.
That's not to say that one must believe the teaching of a specific
group such as the Chantry.

THIS makes sense.

Modifié par JTwizzy88, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:24 .

[Taleroth]

JTwizzy88 wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Sorry if I didn't state my position more clearly. I feel that in a world where the supernatural and the existence of supernatural beings can so easily be demonstrated, belief in a deity is much more rational compared to an atheistic standpoint. That's not to say that one must believe the teaching of a specific group such as the Chantry.

Except that the meaning of "supernatural" is entirely subjective. What is natural to the Theodosians is supernatural to us. In Thedas, magic could be considered a different science. Demons are just another kind of being.

The supernatural is all around them? No, I claim that the supernatural are all around us!

That's ridiculous, the word supernatural refers to an order of existence beyond the scientific universe.  Since magic exists in Thedas and MAGIC by its very definition is clearly supernatural then it would imply that other supernatural creations and entities (such as gods) quite likely exist. 

FYI the meaning of supernatural is not subjective unless the laws of science in any given universe are somehow changed to account for things such as demons and magic.  As far as we know, Thedas has the same scientific laws as our universe.

The existence of magic itself implies the scientific laws are different.   As our scientific laws do not allow for it.

For it to exist within a world, the laws must be different.  It's only supernatural within the context of a world where it can't possibly exist.  The fridge logic here is that supernatural is self-defining as impossible to exist.  Which also provides that where it does exist, it's not supernatural.

Modifié par Taleroth, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:28 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

JTwizzy88 wrote...
That's ridiculous, the word supernatural refers to an order of existence beyond the scientific universe.  Since magic exists in Thedas and MAGIC by its very definition is clearly supernatural then it would imply that other supernatural creations and entities (such as gods) quite likely exist. 

FYI the meaning of supernatural is not subjective unless the laws of science in any given universe are somehow changed to account for things such as demons and magic.  As far as we know, Thedas has the same scientific laws as our universe.

Magic exists in Thedas, but it's part of the natural world around them. Therefore, obviously not SUPERnatural. You're talking about the definition of magic and the supernatural from an inherently non-supernatural viewpoint. I think that anyone in Thedas would disagree with you.

Unless you subscribe to the belief that magic is inherently chaotic and therefore unable to subject to the scientific method, magic can be entirely scientific in nature. Speaking for a in-universe context, of course. Natural law in Thedas is obviously very different from here. Magic is an integrated part of the universe. You even go to the fade in dreams.

Taleroth wrote...
The existence of magic itself implies the scientific laws are different.   As our scientific laws do not allow for it.

For it to exist within a world, the laws must be different.  It's only supernatural within the context of a world where it can't possibly exist.  The fridge logic here is that supernatural is self-defining as impossible to exist.  Which also provides that where it does exist, it's not supernatural.

Excellently put.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:31 .

[Mihilz]

Alocormin wrote...

This is such a complicated topic. Saying atheism couldn't exist is nonsense; saying Thedas should reflect the widespread nature of modern atheism is also nonsense, but is anyone saying there should be widespread atheism in Thedas?

I think there will probably be "atheistic" dialogue choices for your character in DA. When Ashley in Mass Effect mentioned God I made Commander Shepard tell her to keep it to herself. Maybe DA will have similar dialogue choices.