140 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mihilz wrote...
Or in other words: "Scientists don't know everything, therefore I do know everything, therefore everything I want to be true is true. QED.":huh:

No, but the very idea of God being improbable kidna dissolves when faced with that problem.

For you see, they simply cannot find any explanation that makes any sense whatsoever. Something cannot come from nothing. So either the universe was created as some point (why? How?) or it was allways there.
Neither makes much sense when you think about it.
The universe couldn't have been allways there since we know it will end. It started with matter, and all matter naturally dissolves. This is a natural proces and in billions of years the universe will be no more. As matter gradually dissolves you'll be left with energy. And energy doesn't spontaniously convert into matter.
Cyclical universe theories also make no sense.

To make a long story short, you get back to the creation problem, which science can't solve. In fact, we can PROVE that we never will. Why? If there was no time and space and matter before the big bang, then there is nothing to mesure or analyze and NO WAY AT ALL to determine anything before that point. We can't even get info on the precise point (read a bit on the planck time unit).

I could go like this for an eternity. Trust me, I'm well educated and have conversed with quite a few accomplished physicists. The creation of the universe will remain a minstery forever. That alone tells you something. 

[Kempeorlaxan]

Mihilz wrote...

That would still be religious though wouldn't it. Maybe I'll just be a dwarf; they've got their heads on straight.

We worship rocks.

[Taritu]

Mcy1000 wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I completely agree. It belongs there, together with atheism.

I disagree. If that fantasy world hasn't gone through a renaissance, a reformation, an age of enlightenment, and all the chaos and conflict that comes with them than I can't see a good argument for the inclusion of atheism.

Atheism certainly existed in the classical era on earth.  In the middle ages... well, if i were an atheist during the age of faith, I'd keep my trap well and fully shut.

[Mihilz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, but the very idea of God being improbable kidna dissolves when faced with that problem.

For you see, they simply cannot find any explanation that makes any sense whatsoever. Something cannot come from nothing. So either the universe was created as some point (why? How?) or it was allways there.
Neither makes much sense when you think about it.
The universe couldn't have been allways there since we know it will end. It started with matter, and all matter naturally dissolves. This is a natural proces and in billions of years the universe will be no more. As matter gradually dissolves you'll be left with energy. And energy doesn't spontaniously convert into matter.
Cyclical universe theories also make no sense.

To make a long story short, you get back to the creation problem, which science can't solve. In fact, we can PROVE that we never will. Why? If there was no time and space and matter before the big bang, then there is nothing to mesure or analyze and NO WAY AT ALL to determine anything before that point. We can't even get info on the precise point (read a bit on the planck time unit).

I could go like this for an eternity. Trust me, I'm well educated and have conversed with quite a few accomplished physicists. The creation of the universe will remain a minstery forever. That alone tells you something. 

Yeah a lot of this could be true. A lot of physics is counter-intuitive and maybe humanity will never fully explain reality (although some of us don't revel in this possibility). They wouldn't have built a Large Hadron Collider if they didn't think they could answer some big questions.

But our ignorance of something doesn't give us the right to fill the holes with our favourite myths. Just because science hasn't explained something that doesn't mean another discipline can, least of all theology. What's theology ever done for us that can't be redone by a group of pretentious RE students? How has it ever allowed us to harness nature in way never done before? You know that it's an argument from ignorance right?

[DASockDA]

Mihilz wrote...
How has it ever allowed us to harness nature in way never done before?

I'll just add this, as one of the (surprisingly) many atheists on this thread... religion has allowed people to harness human nature in a way that is beyond any other method on hand.

[Lord Clocks]

Mihilz and others, this thread has veered very far from the game.



You can be an athiest and not be a militant jerk expecting other games and people to bend to your whims. Ignore religion. Skip on to the next part of the story. The characters believe in "the maker". The developers may assume that "the maker" exists for the story world these characters live in. The whole thing exists in fantasy anyway, so just go on and say that "the maker" is fantasy too. Thats cool, theres nothing wrong with that.



They arent saying YOU believe (or have to believe) in "the maker".



I have the right to believe in christ, krishna, or the holy donut if id like. Im not about to force my beliefs on you on this forum and tell you that to be an athiest is ignorant and here is why; nor would i be so arrogant as to demand someone to change a game based on my beliefs (or lack thereto).



Id ask you to please be careful about how aggressive you are in offending others in the way you present your viewpoint (or right to the lack of one) on these forums.



Discuss the games. Not your hostility to those who do not share your belief (or lack of belief).

[JTwizzy88]

Taleroth wrote...

JTwizzy88 wrote...

Your logic is circular and makes no sense.

You're saying that the supernatural by virtue of being supernatural would cease being supernatural if it actually existed.  WHY?

I'm saying that anything that exists or occurs is, by definition, natural.  An event that is supernatural, beyond natural, can only fit a definition other than natural by not existing or not occuring.

Because that is the definition of natural.



Supernatural does not mean "unexplained."  It does not mean "unexplainable."  It does not mean "beyond science."  Mass is still unexplained, mass is beyond current science to explain.  We can conjecture on it, such as the proposed Higgs-Boson.  However we've observed mass.  Do we consider mass supernatural?  No, we don't.

If you can reliably, more often than by mere chance, reproduce the conditions for producing a magical fireball, it is officially a natural phenomen.  If your definition of "magical fireball" requires you to either consider it supernatural, then you either have to change your definition at this point or stop considering the fireball magical.

Actually the word natural is probably best definied in this case as 'of or pertaining to nature or the universe'

In the lore of dragon age it is heavily implied that the Fade exists separate from the physical realm (i.e. it is outside of the universe) which would imply that creatures from the Fade (demons, spirits, ghosts etc.) are supernatural entities. 

For magic there's no real proof one way or the other but one can assume that the forces (energy) required for magic must come from somewhere.  Since it has not been revealed that mages must consume an insane amount of food per day to build the necessary energy to cast a spell or that they instead draw their energy from some other physical source, it can be ASSUMED that they draw the energy for their spells from a source outside of their universe.  It would then follow that magic is also supernatural.

[Mihilz]

DASockDA wrote...

religion has allowed people to harness human nature in a way that is beyond any other method on hand.

It hasn't but let's leave it there because others seem to be getting annoyed at where this thread is going.

[Mihilz]

Lord Clocks wrote...

Mihilz and others, this thread has veered very far from the game.

You can be an athiest and not be a militant jerk expecting other games and people to bend to your whims. Ignore religion. Skip on to the next part of the story. The characters believe in "the maker". The developers may assume that "the maker" exists for the story world these characters live in. The whole thing exists in fantasy anyway, so just go on and say that "the maker" is fantasy too. Thats cool, theres nothing wrong with that.

They arent saying YOU believe (or have to believe) in "the maker".

I have the right to believe in christ, krishna, or the holy donut if id like. Im not about to force my beliefs on you on this forum and tell you that to be an athiest is ignorant and here is why; nor would i be so arrogant as to demand someone to change a game based on my beliefs (or lack thereto).

Id ask you to please be careful about how aggressive you are in offending others in the way you present your viewpoint (or right to the lack of one) on these forums.

Discuss the games. Not your hostility to those who do not share your belief (or lack of belief).

I haven't been aggressive at all in this thread. I don't think I could be held responsible for causing religious readers of this thread any offense. Just because a person's religious doesn't mean they have to live their life like an open wound.

The closest thing to offensiveness I've read on this thread so far is you calling me a jerk but I'm not going to complain to the mods about it.

But yeah the Maker will probably be just as absent from Dragon Age as God was from Mass Effect.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mayhaps this thread should be split or moved to misc?

Mihilz wrote...
Yeah a lot of this could be true. A lot of physics is counter-intuitive and maybe humanity will never fully explain reality (although some of us don't revel in this possibility). They wouldn't have built a Large Hadron Collider if they didn't think they could answer some big questions.

But our ignorance of something doesn't give us the right to fill the holes with our favourite myths. Just because science hasn't explained something that doesn't mean another discipline can, least of all theology. What's theology ever done for us that can't be redone by a group of pretentious RE students? How has it ever allowed us to harness nature in way never done before? You know that it's an argument from ignorance right?

I'm afraid I don't follow. Ignorance? RE students? Are you under some kind of dillusion that I'm against science or something?
My dear lad, if I hated science, I wouldn't have endured listening to quantum theory lectures for a whole year.

In fact, science and religion have gone hand-in-hand quite well (not always, but most of the time).
Many, many great discoveries were made by monks and priests, and a whole lot of knowledge was kept by them.

Yes, LHC should bring interesting answers. I should know - my physics professor works there. But you're missing the point.
The point is that sceince tells us we can't know how the universe begun. This isn't fabrication. This is hard fact.
The point is that that alone is rather intruiging. Deos it prove beyond a shodow of doubt that God exists? No. It doesn't have to.
What it does prove is that everyone claiming that God is silly and improbable  does not know what he's talking about.

[Taleroth]

Lord Clocks wrote...

 The characters believe in "the maker". The developers may assume that "the maker" exists for the story world these characters live in.

What about the Elven Pantheon?  Or is it automatically assumed that Dalish Elves worship them instead?

[Mihilz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mayhaps this thread should be split or moved to misc?

I'm afraid I don't follow. Ignorance? RE students? Are you under some kind of dillusion that I'm against science or something?
My dear lad, if I hated science, I wouldn't have endured listening to quantum theory lectures for a whole year.

In fact, science and religion have gone hand-in-hand quite well (not always, but most of the time).
Many, many great discoveries were made by monks and priests, and a whole lot of knowledge was kept by them.

Yes, LHC should bring interesting answers. I should know - my physics professor works there. But you're missing the point.
The point is that sceince tells us we can't know how the universe begun. This isn't fabrication. This is hard fact.
The point is that that alone is rather intruiging. Deos it prove beyond a shodow of doubt that God exists? No. It doesn't have to.
What it does prove is that everyone claiming that God is silly and improbable  does not know what he's talking about.

Lord Clocks, are you sure it's the atheists in this thread that are being jerks?

[DalishRanger]

Taleroth wrote...

Lord Clocks wrote...

 The characters believe in "the maker". The developers may assume that "the maker" exists for the story world these characters live in.

What about the Elven Pantheon?  Or is it automatically assumed that Dalish Elves worship them instead?

I'm pretty sure it's assumed the Dalish worship the old elven pantheon, especially since most of them have symbols of their gods tattooed to their faces, and they make it a point to reject human customs.

[LaztRezort]

Mihilz wrote...
Lord Clocks, are you sure it's the atheists in this thread that are being jerks?

I made a blog somewhat related to the friction of topics such as this (from an atheist's point of view), so I'll shamelessly plug it: social.bioware.com/6921/blog/294/

Actually, though, I'm surprised this discussion has stayed as focused as it has.

[Twitchmonkey]

While I am quite the atheist and the religious discussion looks fun, it's probably best to not fuel the fire. I'm fine with being forced to be religious in this game if the gods manifest themselves in a visible way, but I still hope I can use it to manipulate people in some way.

[Baelin Firestorm]

If BioWare made a game around the life of Jesus, would you play as:



1. Jesus

2. Herod

3. Pontius Pilate

4. Brian

[Twitchmonkey]

Baelin Firestorm wrote...

If BioWare made a game around the life of Jesus, would you play as:

1. Jesus
2. Herod
3. Pontius Pilate
4. Brian

Well, I wanted to be Jepthah, but that's a little before this period. Eh, I guess I'll be Lazarus.

[Adinos]

Eh, those last comments have nothing to do with DA, and are just an invitation to get this thread closed...I suggest you try to get back on topic.

What I really like about the religion in DA is how realistic it is - not like the Forgotten Realms world, where the deities literally walk the earth, and nobody doubts their existence, but like our real world, where different groups of people believe in different things, but nobody has the slightest bit of hard evidence for the existence of their gods of choice or their powers.

Sure, people have extensive religious systems, ceremonies, and stories, and most people in Thedas probably believe the teachings of their religious leaders to a greater or lesser degree - but from a role-playing perspective, it would be easy to be an atheist and deny the existence of the gods...the maker or others. 

Modifié par Adinos, 31 octobre 2009 - 09:17 .

[MessWitDaBull]

I'm an atheist, personally, but I was raised in a Christian home, went to church, Sunday School, so I at least like to think that I have a decent view of both sides of the fence.



I agree with Adinos in that I like the way Bioware handled religion in Dragon Age. Before I go too much into why, I just want to lay out a couple definitions.



1. Atheism: Atheism is the conscious or subconscious denial of the existence of any omnipotent, omnipresent or fate-controlling deity, being, entity, or power.



2. Agnosticism: Agnosticism is the acknowledgment or belief that an omnipotent, omnipresent or fate-controlling deity, being, entity, or power does exist and that this acknowledgment or belief is coupled with the conscious choice to not believe, follow, or extol the belief system of said being.



In Faerun (the Forgotten Realms world), you'd be hard-pressed to find any atheists. There is tangible, empirical proof that gods exist (see: divine magic, gods walking the surface of Faerun, etc.) and as such their existence is essentially irrefutable. However, it is quite possible to find a good number of agnostics in such a world -- people who acknowledge and recognize the gods, but do not devote themselves to any of them (an example of this would be Bishop from NWN2).



In Thedas, however, atheists are a definite probability, just as they are in the real world. Is there any direct evidence that there is a Maker? Has he ever physically or divinely (via flame, lightning, or ) struck someone down? Appeared on Thedas and walked around? No. So, it would be rather easy for atheists to claim that the absence of proof equates to proof of absence (which is a horrible misstep logically, but, hey, it happens. Yes, I realize that makes me sound hypocritical. Maybe I should have said I'm at a stage of hazy grey between atheism and agnosticism. Meh.). Well, easy in the sense that they could make the argument. Maybe not so much the presenting-it-to-the-masses bit.



Hope those atheists can run!



Anywho, realizing I strayed a bit off-topic in this post, I'll sum it up here:



I'm glad that Bioware drew some parallels between Thedas and reality in the sense that religion is faith-based rather than works-based. In some ways I'm lazy, and it makes immersion easier if I don't have to get into the mindset that "in this world, I might run into a god in disguise. Better be wary!" (Of course, with the Templars watching so closely over us mages, I think I'd best be wary anyway.)

[Zakumilos]

Kempeorlaxan wrote...

Mihilz wrote...

That would still be religious though wouldn't it. Maybe I'll just be a dwarf; they've got their heads on straight.

We worship rocks.

That's all I need, the mighty power of rock! wait...

[Kemor]

Very interesting topic though it might be locked by Bioware since they kinda refuse to acknowledge their own creation

To go back quickly to the original topic, I believe it's been said I believe that the character will not be able to really and truly affirm any type of atheism but will be able to not follow the Chantry and that it will not be critically important.

That said, I'd love to go back to a couple things as I believe they are interesting in "world building concept" and how, the more I think of it, the more the Dragon Age world HAS to have a REAL "physical" God as a "Maker". It's a long read and might be complicated but bear with me please.

- Supernatural and magic are, in their core concept, the exact same thing. Through the ages, anything that could not be explained was marked as supernatural or magical. Humans have a very hard time not knowing and accepting it. The concept of supernatural was made up to fill the gap of not knowing. It does NOT answer anything but it encompasses what we cannot explain at a given time. Magic is the exact same thing worded differently. Another word would be miracle for example.

In Dragon Age, magic is NOT supernatural because it is actively used and has consequences on every day lives.The fact that the term itself is used in Dragon Age is, I believe, a mistake that was made to not be too foreign in concept for us (or just lack of through about it). Magic in DA is explained by an active connexion to a parallel dimension (The void) that allows magic users to alter the physical world. A fireball for example is a simple manipulation of the matter itself, same for healing or any other "spell" used. It is very comparable to a science in modern term and I'm quite certain that in the context of DA, it actually has been tested as a science (what happens if I do this, or this, etc). You cannot test supernatural or magic in our world but in DA, you can test magic, hence the problem caused by the wording itself. There is actually very little supernatural in DA since most of it can be actually tested and verified. A werewolf for example is NOT supernatural in DA: you can fight one, kill one AND bring the corpse back for study.

When you think about it and the "magic" in a DA context, you have to wonder how stupid and narrow-minded the humans in this world are. Unlike most fantasy setting where magic is a simple understanding of the thoughts patterns of a creator (Gods exist, they think, manipulate, have rules, therefore you can, to some extend do it as well), the DA setting does not offer any boundary.
In FR for example, any mage tampering with the threads of reality itself would be physically struck down by the creator (or any derivative from it). This is the basis of a lot of scenarios and campaign actually. It also takes an INSANE mind to get to this knowledge and the way is very hard. In fact, in most settings, "mages" reaching this level of control ONLY reach it AFTER having been approved by the gods themselves.
In DA, it is known, by the very antagonists, that they alter reality and there is apparently nothing to strike them down, nothing to force them or guide them. If you think mere priests and sword wielding knights can restrain someone altering the very fabric of the world, you don't have any imagination....
If WE were in Dragon Age (we as our species), imagine the sheer chaos the world would be in if it still existed at all! The fact that the humans there can only come up with fireballs and blizzard and flaming swords is just silly. Heck, try to picture YOURSELF and your reaction to that fact.

Now, the Dragon Age world is presented as quite standardly resembling our Medieval times. This means the evolution of the dominant sentient species on the surface of the planet (man) followed roughly the same line as ours. The ONLY way this could EVER happen when some people can do "magic" is to have a physical, testable, limitation to what they do, not just a limitation of their mind and that means a real creator. Some entity that limits what can be manipulated and how. Some entity that designed the "fireball" and "blizzard" and "flame swords". After all, without physical limitations, there is NO difference between "thinking up into being" 4 flaming swords for your party and putting instantly on fire a whole army or making it so that the fire actually burns INSIDE someone's head.

Gods and rules and whatnot in a normal classical fantasy setting actually all make sense in their context. When you take the FR source book, it's all quite logical, same for Middle Earth and even Eberron or Dragonlance. In these settings, there is a usually a very bright white and a very dark black with very little grey in-between because humans (or whatever dominant sentient beings) are physically conscious of the fact of being judged. They HAVE to make a stand because there ARE actual physical sides to their worlds.

In our real world, there are TONS of grey because we do not have any physical sides to our world and have to shape the world ourselves. Nothing is presented as "here it is, live by it or you'll cease to exist", we make our reality, or try to. If you do something, ANYTHING, right now, nothing is going to happen but what we do ourselves. If I drop an apple, I will have dropped an apple...that's our world. Grey is our perfection, genius and insanity. We only have to make the stand we chose to make.

In Dragon Age, it's like it's trying to have it both ways but it just doesn't feel right, doesn't feel "evolved". If you try to think on how the world got to be the way it is, it just dissolve completely. In a world with mages having such powers, there is NO logical explanation whatsoever to having a viable Chantry like religion UNLESS it had actual physical manifestations to back it up: gods. And if there is nothing of the like, the mages would be the actual Chantry-like religion or, depending on how evolved it is, there would be two main trends: a mage based religion and a mage based science, probably at war with each other...THAT would make sense in term of civilizational evolution.

Therefore, we have two options:
1) The Maker is real AND imposes day to day limitations on everything, including "magic", which empowers the Chantry.
2) The Dragon Age world has no logical reason to exist, which would be I believe a dramatic flaw that will come bite the designers in their respective bottom very soon.

I hope I made at least a bit of sense...

Modifié par Kemor, 31 octobre 2009 - 11:08 .

[LdyShayna]

Adinos wrote...

Eh, those last comments have nothing to do with DA, and are just an invitation to get this thread closed...I suggest you try to get back on topic.

Indeed.

[NotSoEager]

Korva wrote...

I may be in atheist IRL but I'm still curious why people think religion in-games requires being a "mindless" drone. There are bound to be many varieties of Andrastians, from fascist "kill everyone who doesn't worship as I do" bastards to "do good works and spread hope" humanitarians, from deep believers to casuals who only pray on holy days and at funerals. Most people probably fall somewhere in the middle.

Because everything that he doesn't agree with is mindless drone.

[Mistersunshine]

The complexity of the religion in the game was one of PC Gamer UK reviewer John Walker's favorite elements, according to his comments in the recent podcast for the magazine.



He said:



"It has a religion, called the Chant, that is so in-depth and so detailed that there are apologetics in it. There are schisms, and rivals, and alternate interpretations . . . and apologists. That's the depth to which they've written this game. I don't think you can capture it better than that."





Apparently it impressed him a lot.



Sounds cool!

[daem3an]

The fact that these discussions keep cropping up on the forums tells me BioWare has successfully created a fictional gameworld/lore that captures much of the complexity, wonders, doubts, conflicts and contradictions of our own.

For anyone who considers roleplaying a priority, I think this offers a potential level of depth rarely seen in a crpg. There should be ample opportunity for characters of all viewpoints, faiths and beliefs (or lack thereof) to express themselves however they wish.

Modifié par daem3an, 31 octobre 2009 - 01:58 .