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[EmperorSahlertz]

Rifneno wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Somehow I doubt if you were imprisoned in a haunted former slave torment center guarded by people on mind-altering drugs, many of whom are flat out paranoid and will have you tranquilled or killed without any evidence of wrongdoing, and apparently also contains a variety of sexual predators, that you'd be "happy with what you have."

Send Bethany to the Circle and she will tell you that it's bearable. It's definitely not torture and suffering everywhere. Abuse happens (and it happens more often in the Kirkwall Circle), but abuse also happens outside the Circle, frequently.

Now imagine how life of the average Kirkwaller is outside the Circle. Freedom? No, struggling to survive.

So the fact that Hawke doesn't get blood mage thralled is plot armor, but the reason Bethany never gets raped isn't plot armor or even the fact that the abusive templars know better than to pick Hawke's sister as their victim, it's because we're just exaggerating or led to believe abuse is more common in the Kirkwall Circle than it is.  Mmm, that's good old fashioned hypocrisy, just like mama used to make.

Why would the Templars care that it is Hawke's sister? He isn't all that important by then, and they would know Hawke had no way of punishing them if his sister were to tell him.
And if you don't know what hypocrisy means, you shouldn't toss it around hoping to hit the right meaning.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Why would the Templars care that it is Hawke's sister? He isn't all that important by then, and they would know Hawke had no way of punishing them if his sister were to tell him.
And if you don't know what hypocrisy means, you shouldn't toss it around hoping to hit the right meaning.

1.  It's not like Hawke has gained a reputation for single-handedly wiping out a den of blood mages without even templar's anti-magic defenses or butchering his/her way further into the Deep Roads than even the Grey Wardens thought possible or anything right?
2.  Stop talking to me.

[rak72]

We have Bethany telling us that circle isn't that bad and Anders telling us how awful it is. We KNOW Anders would NEVER lie to us ... right? I'm sure his friend Karl was a bigger trouble maker than he was and had everything he got coming to him. It's just to bad that I had to kill the innocent templars in the chantry who were trying to keep the streets safe from this dangerous abomination. Now that I think about it, he probably killed the templars in the beginning of Awakenings. Next time I play that one, he's going back to his lady templar.

[LessThanKate]

I did. For what little romance there was, he's still a sweet character that I grew fond of very quickly...probably helped that he was the most attractive of the romanceable men, but yeah.

I apologize for nothing.

[nos_astra]

Rifneno wrote...
1.  It's not like Hawke has gained a reputation for single-handedly wiping out a den of blood mages without even templar's anti-magic defenses or butchering his/her way further into the Deep Roads than even the Grey Wardens thought possible or anything right?

Oh, the wonders of fanservice and glorious gameplay. Who needs consistent lore in an (almost-)RPG when you can witness Awesome McCool butchering it?

Modifié par klarabella, 20 avril 2011 - 01:52 .

[Rifneno]

rak72 wrote...

We have Bethany telling us that circle isn't that bad and Anders telling us how awful it is. We KNOW Anders would NEVER lie to us ... right? I'm sure his friend Karl was a bigger trouble maker than he was and had everything he got coming to him. It's just to bad that I had to kill the innocent templars in the chantry who were trying to keep the streets safe from this dangerous abomination. Now that I think about it, he probably killed the templars in the beginning of Awakenings. Next time I play that one, he's going back to his lady templar.

Bethany says the Circle isn't that bad?  Hmm.  Okay, now let's hear the whole story.  This conversation takes place in the Gallows during the Right of Annulment.

Bethany: With Carver... I never got the chance to say goodbye. I don't want that to happen this time. Sister, if we... if we don't make it... just know that I love you. All these years, I've tried to understand what Andraste saw. Why she had to lock us up. But my powers come from the Maker... and I just cannot believe that is His will.
(Dialogue option: Investigate -> Do you have regrets?)
Hawke: Being in the Circle must have been hard. Do you ever wish you'd come on the expedition?
Bethany: If I had, who knows where I'd be now? I always thought it was hard growing up outside the Circle, always on the run. I never realized how free I was. Maybe it took being locked in the Gallows to understand my place in this world. To see the need to free my fellow mages.
(Dialogue option: Humorous: The Maker likes us to squirm.)
Hawke: He just enjoys watching us rip each other apart.
Bethany: I cannot believe that. The Maker is just and merciful. This injustice was created by men. A new age begins today. People will overcome their fears and find better ways to live with mages. Whether we live to see it or not, a new day is coming, Sister. I wish Mother had lived long enough to see this. I hope she's found peace.

Odd, looks to me like she's a faithful and religious person who was just trying her best to be understanding of the Chantry's evil but in the end had to accept that... pretty much the polar opposite of what you say.  And that, in fact, she supports fighting for freedom.  In fact she says that flat out.

Feel free to go back to pre-Justice Anders when he flatly refuses to fight for his freedom and condemn him for the deaths of 2 templars with no evidence whatsoever.  It's okay, he just escapes Rylock and gets into the Grey Wardens without you.  Now if you'll excuse me, I have to find a good pic of the Chantry going boom for my desktop wallpaper.  

LessThanKate wrote...

I did. For what little romance there was, he's still a sweet character that I grew fond of very quickly...probably helped that he was the most attractive of the romanceable men, but yeah.

I apologize for nothing.

Good for you.  Too many people believe it's completely shallow to appreciate an innate gift of beauty and that only an innate gift of intelligence is admirable.

klarabella wrote...

Oh, the wonders of fanservice and glorious gameplay. Who needs consistent lore in an (almost-)RPG when you can witness Awesome McCool butchering it?

So it's fanservice and gameplay when the fact that the main character is a force to be reckoned with doesn't help your particular argument?  Nice.  And this is only "almost" an RPG?  I ask only out of morbid curiosity: What, in your clearly expert opinion, would make an actual RPG?

[Camenae]

I did romance him for one playthrough. Actually I branched off an existing playthrough: I loaded up a save near the end of Act II because I didn't want to play the whole thing over again just for Sebastian. I bought the Robe of Unblemished Cleanliness, so I thought hey, why not, perfect dress for my chaste wedding before the Maker right?

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

chaste wedding

Haha.  Still funny.  

Modifié par Rifneno, 20 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[Camenae]

Rifneno wrote...

Camenae wrote...

chaste wedding

Haha.  Still funny.  

I figured if anyone can un-chaste him, my Hawke can!  Given his history, I didn't really think it'd be all that hard to change his mind, so might as well let him think he's getting his way now.

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Camenae wrote...

chaste wedding

Haha.  Still funny.  

I figured if anyone can un-chaste him, my Hawke can!  Given his history, I didn't really think it'd be all that hard to change his mind, so might as well let him think he's getting his way now.

Is it even worth it?  I can't imagine that uptight tool would do anything interesting even if he did break the vow.

[Camenae]

Rifneno wrote...

Is it even worth it?  I can't imagine that uptight tool would do anything interesting even if he did break the vow.

Yes!  1) He's hot when he isn't talking (and corrupting him is a process that doesn't involve talking), 2) If he's managed to disgrace his family with drinking and philandering by age 13, then he should stil have it in him. 

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Is it even worth it?  I can't imagine that uptight tool would do anything interesting even if he did break the vow.

Yes!  1) He's hot when he isn't talking (and corrupting him is a process that doesn't involve talking), 2) If he's managed to disgrace his family with drinking and philandering by age 13, then he should stil have it in him. 

Just because he was a man-**** doesn't mean he was a talented man-****.    He's a prince.  He'd have to put forth an extreme effort not to get laid on an hourly basis.

[Camenae]

You clearly underestimate the teacher. That hurts my feelings!

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

You clearly underestimate the teacher. That hurts my feelings!

Well if it's a matter of teaching, you might as well just grab Emile de Launcet.

...

<ducks>

[Camenae]

Rifneno wrote...

Camenae wrote...

You clearly underestimate the teacher. That hurts my feelings!

Well if it's a matter of teaching, you might as well just grab Emile de Launcet.

...

<ducks>

To quote one of the only funny things Sebastian said in the whole game, during the Emile scene no less: "It would take more than blood magic for that!" 

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Camenae wrote...

You clearly underestimate the teacher. That hurts my feelings!

Well if it's a matter of teaching, you might as well just grab Emile de Launcet.

...

<ducks>

To quote one of the only funny things Sebastian said in the whole game, during the Emile scene no less: "It would take more than blood magic for that!" 

Chloraform magic?  ...  God, what is wrong with me today?

[nos_astra]

Rifneno wrote...
Bethany says the Circle isn't that bad?  Hmm.  Okay, now let's hear the whole story.  This conversation takes place in the Gallows during the Right of Annulment.

Meredith and the templars are out to kill her and her friends. Don't you think that might make her less inclined to provide a nuanced point of view, no matter how bearable she may have found the Circle before?

Rifneno wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Oh, the wonders of fanservice and glorious
gameplay. Who needs consistent lore in an (almost-)RPG when you can
witness Awesome McCool butchering it?

So it's fanservice and gameplay when the fact that the main character is a force to be reckoned with doesn't help your particular argument?

Lore states that an abomination can only be brought down by a handful of templars and that a normal warrior is no match for the power of a possessed mage. Hawke (or the Warden for that matter) has no problem taking out a bunch of abominations at once.

Don't you think that is a mite over the top?
I assume this is supposed to please the crowd who wants to press a button and AWESOME. It's certainly not a shining moment of story-telling.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 avril 2011 - 06:28 .

[Wulfram]

"Bearable" is a long way from a ringing endorsement. Particularly since the letter reads to me as if she's trying hard to be as positive as possible.

[nos_astra]

Wulfram wrote...
"Bearable" is a long way from a ringing endorsement. Particularly since the letter reads to me as if she's trying hard to be as positive as possible.

I didn't say she loved the Circle. I merely wanted to say that maybe even in Kirkwall actual abuse and torture may have been not that common.

If I remember correctly the mages who we know were being mistreatet are Allain (blood mage) and Ella (trying to flee). Maybe they really don't just randomly rape and torture mages, but "only" those who are suspected of breaking the rules.
Still an injustice, but a far cry from what some "want" to see.

Modifié par klarabella, 20 avril 2011 - 06:53 .

[LobselVith8]

AlistairsGirl wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

AlistairsGirl wrote...

Even though this is what I wanted to do to him after! 

i1239.photobucket.com/albums/ff516/krissysleigh/Seabby.gif

 OMG!  You can deck that preachy freak?!  Info please!

I just changed Isabela to look like Sebastian and did her Act 3 quest at the brothel.  It was well worth it lol!

So Hawke is supposed to be able to knock out Isabella instead of Sebastian?

[Wulfram]

klarabella wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
"Bearable" is a long way from a ringing endorsement. Particularly since the letter reads to me as if she's trying hard to be as positive as possible.

I didn't say she loved the Circle. I merely wanted to say that maybe even in Kirkwall actual abuse and torture may have been not that common.

If I remember correctly the mages who we know were being mistreatet are Allain (blood mage) and Ella (trying to flee). Maybe they really don't just randomly rape and torture mages, but "only" those who are supsected to have failed.
Still an injustice, but a far cry from what some "want" to see.

Given the limited number of Circle Mages we encounter, 2 is a lot, particularly since it's not the sort of thing people talk about freely.

The outright abuse, it's probably only those who are vulnerable enough that they're confident they can get away with it - Meredith isn't the sort to tolerate pointless cruelty.  General psychological abuse is probably pretty much universal though, given the way the Knight Captain talks about Mages.

Bethany is tough, powerful and hasn't had the spirit beaten out of her by years of being told she's cursed and not really a person.  The Ser Alrik's of the world would stay well away from her.

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 avril 2011 - 07:06 .

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
"Bearable" is a long way from a ringing endorsement. Particularly since the letter reads to me as if she's trying hard to be as positive as possible.

I didn't say she loved the Circle. I merely wanted to say that maybe even in Kirkwall actual abuse and torture may have been not that common.

Bethany makes note in her letter that she's avoiding certain templars, like Ser Alrik, and that she enjoys teaching children, like Ella.

klarabella wrote...

If I remember correctly the mages who we know were being mistreatet are Allain (blood mage) and Ella (trying to flee). Maybe they really don't just randomly rape and torture mages, but "only" those who are suspected of breaking the rules.
Still an injustice, but a far cry from what some "want" to see.

Ella is the child referenced by Bethany in her letter, so I don't really want to explore how depraved Ser Alrik or the templars with him are for implying that he would rape her.

[Sabariel]

klarabella wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Somehow I doubt if you were imprisoned in a haunted former slave torment center guarded by people on mind-altering drugs, many of whom are flat out paranoid and will have you tranquilled or killed without any evidence of wrongdoing, and apparently also contains a variety of sexual predators, that you'd be "happy with what you have."

Send Bethany to the Circle and she will tell you that it's bearable. It's definitely not torture and suffering everywhere. Abuse happens (and it happens more often in the Kirkwall Circle), but abuse also happens outside the Circle, frequently.

Now imagine what life is like for the average Kirkwaller is outside the Circle. Freedom? No, struggling to survive.

And when you see Bethany again she tells you she didn't realize how free she was while "on the run" until she came to the Circle.

rak72 wrote...

We have Bethany telling us that circle
isn't that bad and Anders telling us how awful it is. We KNOW Anders
would NEVER lie to us ... right? I'm sure his friend Karl was a bigger
trouble maker than he was and had everything he got coming to him. It's
just to bad that I had to kill the innocent templars in the chantry who
were trying to keep the streets safe from this dangerous abomination.
Now that I think about it, he probably killed the templars in the
beginning of Awakenings. Next time I play that one, he's going back to
his lady templar.

......Karl deserved an illegal Tranquility because he was maybe, perhaps a troublemaker? Are you serious?

Modifié par Sabariel, 20 avril 2011 - 08:34 .

[LessThanKate]

Rifneno wrote...

LessThanKate wrote...

I did. For what little romance there was, he's still a sweet character that I grew fond of very quickly...probably helped that he was the most attractive of the romanceable men, but yeah.

I apologize for nothing.

Good for you.  Too many people believe it's completely shallow to appreciate an innate gift of beauty and that only an innate gift of intelligence is admirable.

Oh, you're a funny guy, you sure got me there! It's not like I said he was sweet or anything, only the second part of what I said matters!

I mean, why would I go for someone like him if not for looks? Surely I could not have seen any appeal in the whole "chaste" thing. It would be impossible for me to be exhausted with sex in videogames. How could anyone not want sex shoved in his/her face all the time? And it's not as though I find his spirituality endearing or anything. No, of course not. 

...I don't even think it's fair to compare his with Anders, Fenris, Isabela or Merril. Those four are the full-fledged romances, his is not. You don't even get an achievement. I think of it more as an alternative. For someone, like me, who wasn't initially thrilled with the four LIs (to clarify, they are all fine characters, but I was not interested in pursuing them romantically). I would think it more close to some of the NPCs in Origins that showed interest in the Warden (Tamlen, Cullen, Jowan...sort of) or even the political marriage of Anora to a male Human Noble. 

Am I disappointed in this? Of course. But surpirsed? He was DLC and I knew he was involved in the Chantry early on. Plus, we couldn't have gotten much for the sake of fairness. The four LIs are open for both genders...plus one straight male? From what Bioware game I've played, they've kept it pretty even. I was prepared for nothing. I was initially shocked that Hawke could flirt with him at all. So that considered...I take what I can get. Obviously, for someone on the fence about his character just looking to explore another "romance" scenario, pursuing him is ill advised.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 21 avril 2011 - 12:10 .