420 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

No one is free to live their lives as they see fit. Everyone faces restrictions on their freedom. Why shouldn't mages aswell?

[Dave of Canada]

TheJediSaint wrote...

But perhaps the responsiblity of policing mages should be left to secular authorities rather than a religous order.  Perhaps then Mages could be allowed  a certain level of particpation in the governement.  Say for example, the First Enchanter being considered the quivlaent to an Arl or similar noble?

Wouldn't be that great of an idea, different monarchs with different ideals would treat mages differently.

The pro-mage monarch would try and free them, using his kingdom to step in the way of the policing mages. Similar to what's happening in Ferelden if Alistair is King.

The anti-mage monarch would try to imprison them further, possibly eliminate them as a whole which essentially makes matters worse.

The warmongering monarch would see mages as a resource, training them as attack dogs to use in his invasion of other kingdoms. Possibly against the pro-mage monarch who is letting mages live off in fairy land or the anti-mage monarch who killed them all.

After a kingdom suffers due to being defeated by another kingdom using mages, the others will do the same and treat mages as resources for the war effort. Do you treat mages like people or like war dogs? People are harder to manipulate, ect ect.

[Augustei]

Alistair4Ever wrote...

So i have a question. Has anyone at all played through DA2 and sided with the templars because they thought it was the right thing to do? I mean you are doing a good guy playthrough and you sided with the templars. i can't imagine that because i would only ever do that if i felt like being an ****. so anyone out there think that the templar path is morally right? of cource neither can truely be such but i see the mages as the lesser of 2 evils because well... take 1st enchanter. he was the biggest anti-blood magic mage there is and he was willing to make himself an abomonation just to kill templars. he would not have done that except in an absolute last resort. if the templars hadn't he would havebeen fine. in DA2 90% of the time, mages are forced to blood magic by the templars. if wouldn't squeeze the tube of tooth paste it wouldn't have gotten all over their hands. so, back to the question:  anyone out there think that the templar path is morally right?

I dont think the first enchanter is the best example there.. He went and proved Meredith right with his actions because "One does not simply pull such a ritual out of thin air"
I dont think either side is the morally "good" option really. Both involve killing innocents, One is people just doing their jobs, the other is people just trying to live their lives

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:57 .

[Dave of Canada]

Filament wrote...

Absolute freedom leading to Tevinter is a little questionable, freedom for mages could take multiple paths and only one of those is Tevinter, and the Tevinter system by definition is not absolute freedom in itself because the mages use their freedom to deny others theirs.

Depends how mages react when the public starts to riot/rebel against the mages, if the mages respond with violence and tries to "cull" the common folk in order to stop all opposition it could lead to pseudo-Tevinter. Trying to stay on peaceful terms wouldn't work too great and would probably lead them to be imprisoned again slowly, leading back to the Circle.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:58 .

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...


Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

And what constitutes a deprvation of basic human dignity?  There are people who consider paying taxes to be a violation of the rights, after all.  

And if Mages are allowed to lead there own lives, what's to protect people like Leandra from Mages like Quentin?  Do the peopel who fall victim to the predation of rogue mages not deserve basic human dignity themselves?

I would say being locked up against your will in a tower for your entire life, and forced to pass a difficult test or be executed would qualify as violations of basic human dignity.

Taxes....well, everyone has to pay those, so at least it's equal.  As long as they don't become excessively onerous and continue to pay for required government services (such as raising an army) it doesn't qualify.

I would remind you that even with the Chantry and the Circle, no one was there to protect Leandra from Quentin.  Quentin was a criminal.  The manner of his criminality isn't as important as the fact that he was a vicious killer who got what he had coming.

[Heimdall]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

And I call that reckless endangerment and criminal negligence.  You endanger far more people than just the mages with this.  Mages need to be regulated.  I'm not saying the Circles are the right idea, but the direction is not unjustifiable.  This is unlike any situation in our world where people are deprived of human dignity.  Nobody in our world can become a superhuman rampaging engine of destruction without even having to mean to.  Entire ares being rendered lifeless down to the last man, woman and child, did they not have at least as much right to live as the mage who became an abomination and killed them all?

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

No one is free to live their lives as they see fit. Everyone faces restrictions on their freedom. Why shouldn't mages aswell?

If there are restrictions, they can only be the same for everyone.  I would be interested in hearing what you mean, specifically, by "restrictions".  If we're talking about being expected to obey just laws like not murdering your neighbors or stealing, that doesn't qualify as a restriction.

[Dave of Canada]

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

But perhaps the responsiblity of policing mages should be left to secular authorities rather than a religous order.  Perhaps then Mages could be allowed  a certain level of particpation in the governement.  Say for example, the First Enchanter being considered the quivlaent to an Arl or similar noble?

Wouldn't be that great of an idea, different monarchs with different ideals would treat mages differently.

The pro-mage monarch would try and free them, using his kingdom to step in the way of the policing mages. Similar to what's happening in Ferelden if Alistair is King.

The anti-mage monarch would try to imprison them further, possibly eliminate them as a whole which essentially makes matters worse.

The warmongering monarch would see mages as a resource, training them as attack dogs to use in his invasion of other kingdoms. Possibly against the pro-mage monarch who is letting mages live off in fairy land or the anti-mage monarch who killed them all.

After a kingdom suffers due to being defeated by another kingdom using mages, the others will do the same and treat mages as resources for the war effort. Do you treat mages like people or like war dogs? People are harder to manipulate, ect ect.

Granted my ideas for government are probably too progressive than what would be considered approriate for Thedas, but I think the part where Mages were given a level of participation within a nation's government would help allieviate abuses by monarchs.  This is paritcularly true if the revenues a mage's Circle generates through selling enchanted items and other magical services contributed to the national treasury.  If a king or somesuch was too oppressive, the Mages could express this disatisfaction essentially going on strike and not providing services.  If things get really bad, I could see a "mage drain" happening, where mages move out to less oppressive countries.  

[jamesp81]

Lord Aesir wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

And I call that reckless endangerment and criminal negligence.  You endanger far more people than just the mages with this.  Mages need to be regulated.  I'm not saying the Circles are the right idea, but the direction is not unjustifiable.  This is unlike any situation in our world where people are deprived of human dignity.  Nobody in our world can become a superhuman rampaging engine of destruction without even having to mean to.  Entire ares being rendered lifeless down to the last man, woman and child, did they not have at least as much right to live as the mage who became an abomination and killed them all?

It's totally unjustified.

The Chantry should feel free to station templars in towns where mages live as a stop-gap measure.  It couldn't possibly work any more poorly than the circle currently does, and it would largely eliminate the Big Brother aspects of the whole thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

No one is free to live their lives as they see fit. Everyone faces restrictions on their freedom. Why shouldn't mages aswell?

If there are restrictions, they can only be the same for everyone.  I would be interested in hearing what you mean, specifically, by "restrictions".  If we're talking about being expected to obey just laws like not murdering your neighbors or stealing, that doesn't qualify as a restriction.

Laws are restrictions... ALL laws are by definition restrictions on your person. Restrictions which are needed to maintain the society you live in.

And once a mage is just like any other person, they can get the saem restrictions like everyone else. Until then, they get special restrictions.

[jamesp81]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Freedom has nothing to do with standard of living.  Believing that it does is an enormous misunderstanding of the concept.

All those others you mentioned have lost their basic human (or elven, in some cases) dignity.  They also deserve justice.  I don't see how their situation excuses the treatment of mages.  Neither of these things should happen.  The City Elf Warden was completely justified in carving a bloody path through the Arl's estate in Denerim to rescue his people.  The mages are just as justified in carving a bloody path of destruction through the templars to gain their own freedom.

[thats1evildude]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Dave has a point. Life in the Circle may not be roses and rainbows, but it's a damn sight better than the existence of elves. Yet who advocates bringing down all the human kingdoms so that the lot of elves can improve?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:08 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Freedom has nothing to do with standard of living.  Believing that it does is an enormous misunderstanding of the concept.

All those others you mentioned have lost their basic human (or elven, in some cases) dignity.  They also deserve justice.  I don't see how their situation excuses the treatment of mages.  Neither of these things should happen.  The City Elf Warden was completely justified in carving a bloody path through the Arl's estate in Denerim to rescue his people.  The mages are just as justified in carving a bloody path of destruction through the templars to gain their own freedom.

Believing that freedom is neccesary to live a good life is ignorant. All a good life requires is happiness.

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

No one is free to live their lives as they see fit. Everyone faces restrictions on their freedom. Why shouldn't mages aswell?

If there are restrictions, they can only be the same for everyone.  I would be interested in hearing what you mean, specifically, by "restrictions".  If we're talking about being expected to obey just laws like not murdering your neighbors or stealing, that doesn't qualify as a restriction.

Laws are restrictions... ALL laws are by definition restrictions on your person. Restrictions which are needed to maintain the society you live in.

And once a mage is just like any other person, they can get the saem restrictions like everyone else. Until then, they get special restrictions.

In some cultures, that's true.  In traditional western civilizations, laws exist to protect and defend freedoms.  In fact, in a lot of philosophical thought on the matter, the only laws that are just are those that are intended to do defend those freedoms from infringement (while obviously not infringing on any particular person or group's freedoms to do so).

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Freedom has nothing to do with standard of living.  Believing that it does is an enormous misunderstanding of the concept.

All those others you mentioned have lost their basic human (or elven, in some cases) dignity.  They also deserve justice.  I don't see how their situation excuses the treatment of mages.  Neither of these things should happen.  The City Elf Warden was completely justified in carving a bloody path through the Arl's estate in Denerim to rescue his people.  The mages are just as justified in carving a bloody path of destruction through the templars to gain their own freedom.

Believing that freedom is neccesary to live a good life is ignorant. All a good life requires is happiness.

And a chained man cannot truly be happy, even if he claims to be or even thinks he is.

I also never said being free would lead to a good life.  Often times, it doesn't.  It's not about that, though, and it never was.

[Dave of Canada]

jamesp81 wrote...


In some cultures, that's true.  In traditional western civilizations, laws exist to protect and defend freedoms.  In fact, in a lot of philosophical thought on the matter, the only laws that are just are those that are intended to do defend those freedoms from infringement (while obviously not infringing on any particular person or group's freedoms to do so).

Good thing that Thedas isn't a traditional western civilization with laws to exist and protect the glorious freedom of super humans who can blow up your entire district because he had a bad day.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:17 .

[Trakadon]

F-ing anders man... But did anyone else notice that all the mages died anyways?

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...


In some cultures, that's true.  In traditional western civilizations, laws exist to protect and defend freedoms.  In fact, in a lot of philosophical thought on the matter, the only laws that are just are those that are intended to do defend those freedoms from infringement (while obviously not infringing on any particular person or group's freedoms to do so).

Good thing that Thedas isn't a traditional western civilization with laws to exist and protect the glorious freedom of super humans who can blow up your entire district because he had a bad day.

I was going to say something to the effect that even Western Civlization viewed laws as a restictions, but I think Dave of Canada's response is the best.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 05 octobre 2011 - 01:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Freedom has nothing to do with standard of living.  Believing that it does is an enormous misunderstanding of the concept.

All those others you mentioned have lost their basic human (or elven, in some cases) dignity.  They also deserve justice.  I don't see how their situation excuses the treatment of mages.  Neither of these things should happen.  The City Elf Warden was completely justified in carving a bloody path through the Arl's estate in Denerim to rescue his people.  The mages are just as justified in carving a bloody path of destruction through the templars to gain their own freedom.

Believing that freedom is neccesary to live a good life is ignorant. All a good life requires is happiness.

And a chained man cannot truly be happy, even if he claims to be or even thinks he is.

I also never said being free would lead to a good life.  Often times, it doesn't.  It's not about that, though, and it never was.

Oh? So you get to decide whena  man is truly happy or not? That is unbelievably arrogant. A man is EXACTLY as happy as he feels in the moment. All happiness is intangible and you cannot claim aman's happiness is false, just because you don't think you would be happy in his situation.

[Heimdall]

jamesp81 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

And I call that reckless endangerment and criminal negligence.  You endanger far more people than just the mages with this.  Mages need to be regulated.  I'm not saying the Circles are the right idea, but the direction is not unjustifiable.  This is unlike any situation in our world where people are deprived of human dignity.  Nobody in our world can become a superhuman rampaging engine of destruction without even having to mean to.  Entire ares being rendered lifeless down to the last man, woman and child, did they not have at least as much right to live as the mage who became an abomination and killed them all?

It's totally unjustified.

The Chantry should feel free to station templars in towns where mages live as a stop-gap measure.  It couldn't possibly work any more poorly than the circle currently does, and it would largely eliminate the Big Brother aspects of the whole thing.

Sure, that probably wouldn't be effective, but sure.  Recall the purpose of the Circle's.  They are not solely built as mage prisons.  They are also schools that teach mages to control their abilities and give them a plce away from the rest of Thedas, most of which fears and hates mages.  They also tend to have rather luxurious accomodations.  The Circles were founded by Mages, recall, who were unsatisfied with what they were allowed to do in Andrastrian Thedas (Which amounted to being allowed to light candles occasionally) without being killed by a mob.  Also, the Harrowing itself is not without purpose.  An untrained mage is only the slightest bit more tempting to a demon than the average person.  As a Mage gains power, they become more appetizing.  The Harrowing tests whether a Mage is capable of resisting demons before they are given more power.  Those Mages that fail the Harrowing (My impression was that this was a small number) would in all likelihood have been tricked into becoming abominations at a later date, and been more dangerous for the power they had gained (Not that a Harrowed Mage is immune to demon possession, but those that do usually chose it knowingly).  This is a logical test, not a very humane test, but a logical one.  I'm not advocating the Circle system, but it has its merits beyond the containment of abominations.

I'd advocate a system where all mages are sent to Circles to be instructed in magic and taught the ethics of its use (Read: Don't kill innocent people and don't use blood magic).  Then the mages are sent about their lives with a Templar or two assigned to each, rotating in shifts from the Circle.  Unfortunately it would probably stretch the Templars too thin to be effective against a decently powerful abomination.  SO we'd need more Templars.

Also, your thing about laws is only part right if at all.  Laws being restrictions and the purpose of those laws are two different things.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:44 .

[TheJediSaint]

Perhaps if there was a Mage internal affairs that works with the Templars to police Mages, while at the same time fostering understanding and cooperation between mages and Templars. As I recall, Knight-Commander Gregore and First Enchanter Irving had a something of a rapport due to learning to work with each other. I suppose and ideal system would be to have mages granted more freedom, but in exchange are required to participate in making sure there peers are on the straight and narrow.

[Xilizhra]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Perhaps if there was a Mage internal affairs that works with the Templars to police Mages, while at the same time fostering understanding and cooperation between mages and Templars. As I recall, Knight-Commander Gregore and First Enchanter Irving had a something of a rapport due to learning to work with each other. I suppose and ideal system would be to have mages granted more freedom, but in exchange are required to participate in making sure there peers are on the straight and narrow.

I'd have the templars be those internal affairs people and scrap any and all Chantry involvement. They deserve nothign to do with this.