420 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...


In some cultures, that's true.  In traditional western civilizations, laws exist to protect and defend freedoms.  In fact, in a lot of philosophical thought on the matter, the only laws that are just are those that are intended to do defend those freedoms from infringement (while obviously not infringing on any particular person or group's freedoms to do so).

Good thing that Thedas isn't a traditional western civilization with laws to exist and protect the glorious freedom of super humans who can blow up your entire district because he had a bad day.

I was going to say something to the effect that even Western Civlization also viewed laws as a restictions, but I think Dave of Canada's response is the best.

Thedas closely mirrors medieval western culture, although the time period seems to somewhat pre-date the renaissance when most of the modern thought I'm referring to came about.

However, much of Thedas's people behave in a manner that's more modern than the time period depicted, so that doesn't particularly matter.

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Freedom has nothing to do with standard of living.  Believing that it does is an enormous misunderstanding of the concept.

All those others you mentioned have lost their basic human (or elven, in some cases) dignity.  They also deserve justice.  I don't see how their situation excuses the treatment of mages.  Neither of these things should happen.  The City Elf Warden was completely justified in carving a bloody path through the Arl's estate in Denerim to rescue his people.  The mages are just as justified in carving a bloody path of destruction through the templars to gain their own freedom.

Believing that freedom is neccesary to live a good life is ignorant. All a good life requires is happiness.

And a chained man cannot truly be happy, even if he claims to be or even thinks he is.

I also never said being free would lead to a good life.  Often times, it doesn't.  It's not about that, though, and it never was.

Oh? So you get to decide whena  man is truly happy or not? That is unbelievably arrogant. A man is EXACTLY as happy as he feels in the moment. All happiness is intangible and you cannot claim aman's happiness is false, just because you don't think you would be happy in his situation.

I wouldn't say it's false, necessarily.  Just not what it could be.  Still, it doesn't particularly matter.  I don't really negotiate with people who think not respecting basic human dignity is a viable option.

All those nasty templars in Kirkwall found that out the hard way:lol:

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Perhaps if there was a Mage internal affairs that works with the Templars to police Mages, while at the same time fostering understanding and cooperation between mages and Templars. As I recall, Knight-Commander Gregore and First Enchanter Irving had a something of a rapport due to learning to work with each other. I suppose and ideal system would be to have mages granted more freedom, but in exchange are required to participate in making sure there peers are on the straight and narrow.

Now that, is actually a good idea.  Such a system would have both sides holding the other to account, and it would also require mages to take more ownership of their own situation and generally improve their own self-control and self-respect.

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
In some cultures, that's true.  In traditional western civilizations, laws exist to protect and defend freedoms.  In fact, in a lot of philosophical thought on the matter, the only laws that are just are those that are intended to do defend those freedoms from infringement (while obviously not infringing on any particular person or group's freedoms to do so).

Good thing that Thedas isn't a traditional western civilization with laws to exist and protect the glorious freedom of super humans who can blow up your entire district because he had a bad day.

I was going to say something to the effect that even Western Civlization also viewed laws as a restictions, but I think Dave of Canada's response is the best.

Thedas closely mirrors medieval western culture, although the time period seems to somewhat pre-date the renaissance when most of the modern thought I'm referring to came about.

However, much of Thedas's people behave in a manner that's more modern than the time period depicted, so that doesn't particularly matter.

Good job completely missing Dave's point.

[Lazy Jer]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Perhaps if there was a Mage internal affairs that works with the Templars to police Mages, while at the same time fostering understanding and cooperation between mages and Templars. As I recall, Knight-Commander Gregore and First Enchanter Irving had a something of a rapport due to learning to work with each other. I suppose and ideal system would be to have mages granted more freedom, but in exchange are required to participate in making sure there peers are on the straight and narrow.

Now that, is actually a good idea.  Such a system would have both sides holding the other to account, and it would also require mages to take more ownership of their own situation and generally improve their own self-control and self-respect.

If you gave the Circle this power and had them work with the Templars on equal terms then they could form an important system of checks and balances against each other or even the Chantry should it be required.  One thing that DA2 illustrates is that someone can become corrupted by power, mage or no.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I've never been able to support the templars; the notion of incarcerating people for the duration of their lives for something they are rather than something they do is, to me, unconscionable.

The fact that the Templars seem so sadistic in the performance of their duties and the way their doctrines dehumanise mages reminds me of violent cops and prison guards who abuse their charges without any kind of accountability. Cullen's comment about "mages not being people like us" was particularly telling, and gives and insight into the kind of ideology that leads to the abuses that the templars perpetrate. Given the abuses perpertrated on the mages, is it any wonder that they rebel by any means at their disposal? The Templars, by their treatment of the mages, precipitated the crisis at the Kirkwall Circle, and made an action like Anders' inevitable; if you push people down long enough, one will push back.

That said, I believe that the Circles are necessary to ensure that young mages are trained to control their powers and to ensure that they are strong enough to resist demonic possession. Mages that pass their Harrowing should be free to come and go as they please, and to live their lives like all normal citizens. I also think the Templars are a neccessary organisation for dealing with rogue mages that turn bad (and abominations), but their role should be limited to policing mages that break the rules, rather than gaoling all of them.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

No one is free to live their lives as they see fit. Everyone faces restrictions on their freedom. Why shouldn't mages aswell?

If there are restrictions, they can only be the same for everyone.  I would be interested in hearing what you mean, specifically, by "restrictions".  If we're talking about being expected to obey just laws like not murdering your neighbors or stealing, that doesn't qualify as a restriction.

Laws are restrictions... ALL laws are by definition restrictions on your person. Restrictions which are needed to maintain the society you live in.

And once a mage is just like any other person, they can get the saem restrictions like everyone else. Until then, they get special restrictions.

The same speical restrictions that caused mage -templar war? If laws create anarchy instead of stability they should either be ignored or alterd pronto?

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

Idiotic argument. One wrong doesnt make the other wrong right.

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Filament wrote...

Absolute freedom leading to Tevinter is a little questionable, freedom for mages could take multiple paths and only one of those is Tevinter, and the Tevinter system by definition is not absolute freedom in itself because the mages use their freedom to deny others theirs.

Depends how mages react when the public starts to riot/rebel against the mages, if the mages respond with violence and tries to "cull" the common folk in order to stop all opposition it could lead to pseudo-Tevinter. Trying to stay on peaceful terms wouldn't work too great and would probably lead them to be imprisoned again slowly, leading back to the Circle.

Strange argument here. It could lead to a pseudo-Tevinter? What is your evidence for that? The problems of the Tevinter imperium are a widespread social problem and not just of the mages themselves. Being ruthless in conquest also doesnt mean that you become a corrupt empire. In fact if we look at the history of the mongols, you see a complete opposite. While the mongols where undoubedtly the most ruthless conquerors of all times and yet their empire was benevolent (for the time) in social and law enforcement.

[The Baconer]

*Make argument based on the fact that freedom and human rights don't exist as concepts in Thedas*

*In the same breath, argue against possible magocracies because mundanes are stripped of their rights and freedom*

Never change, BSN

Modifié par The Baconer, 05 octobre 2011 - 01:02 .

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
In some cultures, that's true.  In traditional western civilizations, laws exist to protect and defend freedoms.  In fact, in a lot of philosophical thought on the matter, the only laws that are just are those that are intended to do defend those freedoms from infringement (while obviously not infringing on any particular person or group's freedoms to do so).

Good thing that Thedas isn't a traditional western civilization with laws to exist and protect the glorious freedom of super humans who can blow up your entire district because he had a bad day.

I was going to say something to the effect that even Western Civlization also viewed laws as a restictions, but I think Dave of Canada's response is the best.

Thedas closely mirrors medieval western culture, although the time period seems to somewhat pre-date the renaissance when most of the modern thought I'm referring to came about.

However, much of Thedas's people behave in a manner that's more modern than the time period depicted, so that doesn't particularly matter.

Good job completely missing Dave's point.

Dave's point is wrong.  Thedas is pretty westernized and it's culture exhibits norms that are a few years ahead of it's 15th-ish century backdrop.  His point is invalid.

[jamesp81]

The Baconer wrote...

*Make argument based on the fact that freedom and human rights don't exist as concepts in Thedas*

*In the same breath, argue against possible magocracies because mundanes are stripped of their rights and freedom*

Never change, BSN

You got to cut BSN a little slack, you know.  Of all the forums I've frequented, it's among the most tame if, perhaps, not very logically consistent.

[Dave of Canada]

The Baconer wrote...

*Make argument based on the fact that freedom and human rights don't exist as concepts in Thedas*

*In the same breath, argue against possible magocracies because mundanes are stripped of their rights and freedom*

Never change, BSN

There's no human rights or freedom on Thedas, it's irrelevent to the fear of a magocracy. Thedosians don't want to be ruled by mages, it's part of their entire religion. It has nothing to do with human rights or freedom, it has everything to do with mages ruling.

But you can simplify it if it makes you feel better.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 octobre 2011 - 04:36 .

[Ryzaki]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

Tons of dead innocents either way. Either because they were born mages, or because they got killed by an abomination/blood mage.

This. 

If only Hawke could do this. 

[Lisa_H]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

I agree that mages are better of then many other people in Thedas. Look at the elves, casteless dwarves or just poor humans. They might not have the right to choose how they want to live their lives, but how many people in the medieval times did, most was decided by birth. And it seems like they to some degree can have quite respected roles. Wynne can take up the as advisor to Alistair, and I think there was a mage a advidor to the king in Stolen Throne. A mage was also sent as an ambassador from the Circle to Vigil's Keep

[jamesp81]

Lisa_H wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

I agree that mages are better of then many other people in Thedas. Look at the elves, casteless dwarves or just poor humans. They might not have the right to choose how they want to live their lives, but how many people in the medieval times did, most was decided by birth. And it seems like they to some degree can have quite respected roles. Wynne can take up the as advisor to Alistair, and I think there was a mage a advidor to the king in Stolen Throne. A mage was also sent as an ambassador from the Circle to Vigil's Keep

Better off in their physical condition?  So what?  Standard of living is not related to how free you are.

The mages, at best, can expect to be treated as a useful tool by the Chantry (this is referenced in the codex somewhere, but I don't remember the exact quote), and as dangerous criminals at worst.

Being viewed as a useful tool can be seen in DAO if you save the circle, and the Templars send the mages to fight at Denerim.  That one act pretty much wrecked any respect I had for Knight Commander Gregoire.  He sent mages to fight while his precious templars stood in the back, using the excuse of 'watching the mages' (which there were few to watch since the bulk of them went to battle) to keep his men off the front lines.  During the final battle, I saw Arl Eamon, First Enchanter Irving, and Kardol personally helping in the battle.  Gregoire's skirted ass was nowhere to be seen.  He could've at least come by himself as a token representative of the templars / chantry, but he didn't even do that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since all the mages of the tower doesn't join the fighting in Denerim, the Templars can't follow them. If you annul the twoer, Greagoir replaces Irving. But his duty is not to stop the Blight, but to watch the amges, which is why he doesn't join the fighting if you save the Circle.

[The Baconer]

Dave of Canada wrote...
There's no human rights or freedom on Thedas, it's irrelevent to the fear of a magocracy. Thedosians don't want to be ruled by mages, it's part of their entire religion. It has nothing to do with human rights or freedom, it has everything to do with mages ruling.

We both know that's not true.

But you can simplify it if it makes you feel better.

Narrowing the reasons for not wanting a magocracy down to "BECAUSE MAGES" is a bigger simplication than anything you'll find in my last post.

Modifié par The Baconer, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:05 .

[Cobra's_back]

Lazy Jer wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Perhaps if there was a Mage internal affairs that works with the Templars to police Mages, while at the same time fostering understanding and cooperation between mages and Templars. As I recall, Knight-Commander Gregore and First Enchanter Irving had a something of a rapport due to learning to work with each other. I suppose and ideal system would be to have mages granted more freedom, but in exchange are required to participate in making sure there peers are on the straight and narrow.

Now that, is actually a good idea.  Such a system would have both sides holding the other to account, and it would also require mages to take more ownership of their own situation and generally improve their own self-control and self-respect.

If you gave the Circle this power and had them work with the Templars on equal terms then they could form an important system of checks and balances against each other or even the Chantry should it be required.  One thing that DA2 illustrates is that someone can become corrupted by power, mage or no.

You stated it perfectly. David Gaider had this same theme of corruption everywhere in his books. “The Stolen Throne” had the corrupt Mother Bronach and the saint Mother Ailis. The truth is that there is good and evil in all groups.
As you stated, a system of checks and balances is needed. Without this we can count on Dragon Age 10 the fight continues.
 

[TheJediSaint]

I'm not really that concerned about the rights of Mages as much as I am about peace. People are not going to be worried about their rights when armies of Mages and Templars are scourging the land trying to exterminate each other.

Approaching the Mage-Templar issue from the angle of human rights is only going to lead to trouble because not everyone agrees what human rights really mean.  As Dave has pointed out, concepts like rights and freedom sound nice, but are ultimately meaningless without context.

Peace on the other hand, is a concrete. Therefore, any discussion in regard to Mages vs Templar should instead focus on how to achieve a lasting peace in a morally acceptable fashion,

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:30 .

[FedericoV]

That's one of the biggest flaw of the game in terms of roleplaying: most part of the story is spent depicting the flawed nature of the institutions and political groups of Thedas. Maybe, Kirkwall is a worst case scenario, but there is really nothing to save and nothing to swear some kind of loyalty to.

The Arishok, while being closed minded and intollerant, is allways right when he talks about Kirkwall and Hawke's replies to his remarks allways feel like weak and feeble justifications.

So, everything is morally and politcally brown... not grey, brown! And at the end you are forced to take sides when you know that both parties are completely wrong and are the result of a wrong system.

Was it for me, I would not have sided with anyone. I would have killed Anders because he betrayed my trust, give my money to the poors and follow Isabella in the first ship leaving Kirkwall. Mages and Templars are just two sides of the same coin. Honestly, I completely lost interest in the story and Hawke himself after I was forced to make that decision in the writer's terms. Hawke stopped to be my PC and has finally became a PC owned by the writers.

I understand that the "third solution" is not the best way to handle choices in RPGs. But "crap sandwiches" of that magnitude are even worst. So, no, Templars are not good and Mages are even worst and everything is screwed... that's the point I guess.

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 octobre 2011 - 08:05 .

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since all the mages of the tower doesn't join the fighting in Denerim, the Templars can't follow them. If you annul the twoer, Greagoir replaces Irving. But his duty is not to stop the Blight, but to watch the amges, which is why he doesn't join the fighting if you save the Circle.

The number of mages in the circle accounting for losses due to Uldred and all the mages that left to fight are GREATLY reduced.  Ergo, not as many templars are needed to do the job.

There was no reason why his second in command couldn't have still watched the mages while at least him and a small contingent made a show of pitching in.  As it is, he only shows up if all the mages are dead and doesn't have that excuse anymore.

[jamesp81]

nevermind

Modifié par jamesp81, 05 octobre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Chun Hei]

Ryzaki wrote...

PresidentCowboy wrote...

Tons of dead innocents either way. Either because they were born mages, or because they got killed by an abomination/blood mage.

This. 

If only Hawke could do this. 

If the game allowed Hawke to target civilians as well as slaver s/he could wipe out the entire population of Thedas in about six hours. No abomination necessary.

[DKJaigen]

TheJediSaint wrote...

I'm not really that concerned about the rights of Mages as much as I am about peace. People are not going to be worried about their rights when armies of Mages and Templars are scourging the land trying to exterminate each other.

Approaching the Mage-Templar issue from the angle of human rights is only going to lead to trouble because not everyone agrees what human rights really mean.  As Dave has pointed out, concepts like rights and freedom sound nice, but are ultimately meaningless without context.

Peace on the other hand, is a concrete. Therefore, any discussion in regard to Mages vs Templar should instead focus on how to achieve a lasting peace in a morally acceptable fashion,

Thats akin to curing the symptons and not the disease. Peace will no doubt be achieved but in time another mage-templar war will erupt again.