420 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I'm not really that concerned about the rights of Mages as much as I am about peace. People are not going to be worried about their rights when armies of Mages and Templars are scourging the land trying to exterminate each other.

Approaching the Mage-Templar issue from the angle of human rights is only going to lead to trouble because not everyone agrees what human rights really mean.  As Dave has pointed out, concepts like rights and freedom sound nice, but are ultimately meaningless without context.

Peace on the other hand, is a concrete. Therefore, any discussion in regard to Mages vs Templar should instead focus on how to achieve a lasting peace in a morally acceptable fashion,

Thats akin to curing the symptons and not the disease. Peace will no doubt be achieved but in time another mage-templar war will erupt again.

And you don't think that will happen no matter what?

[Cobra's_back]

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

 
I agree with you. There were no human rights. People may have seen a rape or torture and kept moving. Some were repulsed but fear stopped them from jumping in. The family of the rape victim might have felt compelled to quietly take matters into their own hands. Other, may have silently hated their oppressors and would have gladly killed them if the opportunity came.
The more important thing to remember is that the mages are powerful. They are the last group anyone wants to kick around. Any smart ruler would be careful around something that dangerous. The Elves were easy prey. History teaches us that easy prey doesn’t have a chance. Strong and power adversaries need to be studied and handled with great care. The Chantry in charge of the mages is the biggest mistake. They are not strategist. Think of the “Art of War”.
It was a political mistake to mistreat them. Early governments would have tried to befriend them or exterminate them. They are not easily exterminated because they look like everyone else. Mages are often born from non-magical families. Not all fathers rejected their mage child. Parents of these children could have been sympathetic to the mages. There were mage supporters.
The biggest problem was Kirkwall kicked too often and too hard. History is teeming with slave riots and rebellions. This was common in Europe. Whether they win or not depends on the strategy they use.

[Vicious]

It can only be construed as 'good' because you are attempting to contain the situation and prevent a world war by looking at the big picture. Yes, it happens regardless of your actions, but there's no way to know that outside of metagame.

The only person who could have made peace is killed by Justice. Yes she was rather weak and ineffectual, but despite this, she was the only person who both sides listened to.


Overall the situation was poorly presented.

[DKJaigen]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

 
I agree with you. There were no human rights. People may have seen a rape or torture and kept moving. Some were repulsed but fear stopped them from jumping in. The family of the rape victim might have felt compelled to quietly take matters into their own hands. Other, may have silently hated their oppressors and would have gladly killed them if the opportunity came.
The more important thing to remember is that the mages are powerful. They are the last group anyone wants to kick around. Any smart ruler would be careful around something that dangerous. The Elves were easy prey. History teaches us that easy prey doesn’t have a chance. Strong and power adversaries need to be studied and handled with great care. The Chantry in charge of the mages is the biggest mistake. They are not strategist. Think of the “Art of War”.
It was a political mistake to mistreat them. Early governments would have tried to befriend them or exterminate them. They are not easily exterminated because they look like everyone else. Mages are often born from non-magical families. Not all fathers rejected their mage child. Parents of these children could have been sympathetic to the mages. There were mage supporters.
The biggest problem was Kirkwall kicked too often and too hard. History is teeming with slave riots and rebellions. This was common in Europe. Whether they win or not depends on the strategy they use.

Knowledge of medieval times is appallingly low on these forums

Modifié par DKJaigen, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:42 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

I'm not really that concerned about the rights of Mages as much as I am about peace. People are not going to be worried about their rights when armies of Mages and Templars are scourging the land trying to exterminate each other.

Approaching the Mage-Templar issue from the angle of human rights is only going to lead to trouble because not everyone agrees what human rights really mean.  As Dave has pointed out, concepts like rights and freedom sound nice, but are ultimately meaningless without context.

Peace on the other hand, is a concrete. Therefore, any discussion in regard to Mages vs Templar should instead focus on how to achieve a lasting peace in a morally acceptable fashion,

Thats akin to curing the symptons and not the disease. Peace will no doubt be achieved but in time another mage-templar war will erupt again.

And you don't think that will happen no matter what?

Perhaps , perhaps not. But its proven that the current system doesnt work simply change it untill you have the right system

[Cobra's_back]

DKJaigen wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

 
I agree with you. There were no human rights. People may have seen a rape or torture and kept moving. Some were repulsed but fear stopped them from jumping in. The family of the rape victim might have felt compelled to quietly take matters into their own hands. Other, may have silently hated their oppressors and would have gladly killed them if the opportunity came.
The more important thing to remember is that the mages are powerful. They are the last group anyone wants to kick around. Any smart ruler would be careful around something that dangerous. The Elves were easy prey. History teaches us that easy prey doesn’t have a chance. Strong and power adversaries need to be studied and handled with great care. The Chantry in charge of the mages is the biggest mistake. They are not strategist. Think of the “Art of War”.
It was a political mistake to mistreat them. Early governments would have tried to befriend them or exterminate them. They are not easily exterminated because they look like everyone else. Mages are often born from non-magical families. Not all fathers rejected their mage child. Parents of these children could have been sympathetic to the mages. There were mage supporters.
The biggest problem was Kirkwall kicked too often and too hard. History is teeming with slave riots and rebellions. This was common in Europe. Whether they win or not depends on the strategy they use.

Knowledge of medieval times is appallingly low on these forums

I was thinking of the Reconquista myself. Do you think that all the people fighting in the “Reconquista” fought for the same reason? Isn’t 800 years of occupation an opportunity for people to find a personal axe to grind against their oppressor? Even if your leader states it is a holy war, the individual may have their own reasons. Are you really saying that families didn’t mind their daughters being dragged off as human sex toys? History books tell us why a group as a whole goes to war. My point is that people react to oppression in their own way.  They are not all accepting of it even if they don’t openly react to it.

[Everwarden]

Kemor wrote...
Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

Bad writing. The moment Orsino went full retard is the moment I wanted a refund. 

[GodWood]

jamesp81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Good job completely missing Dave's point.

Dave's point is wrong.  Thedas is pretty westernized and it's culture exhibits norms that are a few years ahead of it's 15th-ish century backdrop.  His point is invalid.

Still missing it.

[CrimsonZephyr]

DKJaigen wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

 
I agree with you. There were no human rights. People may have seen a rape or torture and kept moving. Some were repulsed but fear stopped them from jumping in. The family of the rape victim might have felt compelled to quietly take matters into their own hands. Other, may have silently hated their oppressors and would have gladly killed them if the opportunity came.
The more important thing to remember is that the mages are powerful. They are the last group anyone wants to kick around. Any smart ruler would be careful around something that dangerous. The Elves were easy prey. History teaches us that easy prey doesn’t have a chance. Strong and power adversaries need to be studied and handled with great care. The Chantry in charge of the mages is the biggest mistake. They are not strategist. Think of the “Art of War”.
It was a political mistake to mistreat them. Early governments would have tried to befriend them or exterminate them. They are not easily exterminated because they look like everyone else. Mages are often born from non-magical families. Not all fathers rejected their mage child. Parents of these children could have been sympathetic to the mages. There were mage supporters.
The biggest problem was Kirkwall kicked too often and too hard. History is teeming with slave riots and rebellions. This was common in Europe. Whether they win or not depends on the strategy they use.

Knowledge of medieval times is appallingly low on these forums

Well, Thedas itself doesn't really seem to be a 1:1 match. Take for example, Varric talking about having printing presses. This inocuous little comment reveals a lot. It reveals that printing technology is known. It reveals that, at least in Kirkwall, literacy is high enough for there to be a market for mass-produced written material. Then there's Isabela, pirate girl extraordinaire, who is educated enough to both read and write, despite coming from a poor background and working in a profession where she should be, by any measure of logic, dying of scurvy. Those extrapolations make Thedas quite a bit further ahead in terms of culture and society. Then, take into consideration that men and women in Ferelden are viewed as equals, homosexuality is tolerated, abortifacients are known and openly used, and things like civil bureacracies and organized police forces exist, beyond being blatantly hired thugs.

[DKJaigen]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

People throughout Thedas are raped, abused, tortured and imprisoned without the guard giving the slightest glance in their direction. Do you think Shianni would've recieved justice? How about Howe? Do you think the people imprisoned during Leliana's Song would've seen the light of day again? What about the peasants who rebel but get slain?

Do they have "basic human dignity"? Do they have the rights you claim that all mages deserve? No, they don't. They have poor living conditions, they suffer injustices and nobody does anything because nobody cares. The difference is, they aren't dangerous and they're starving.

What does the mage suffer? They suffer the occasional abuse from time to time by some Templar, abuses which people deal with anyway and the only difference is that mages are given free shelter / food / clothes and are given an education which nobody but Chantry folk or nobility recieves.

Oh yes, those poor mages.

 
I agree with you. There were no human rights. People may have seen a rape or torture and kept moving. Some were repulsed but fear stopped them from jumping in. The family of the rape victim might have felt compelled to quietly take matters into their own hands. Other, may have silently hated their oppressors and would have gladly killed them if the opportunity came.
The more important thing to remember is that the mages are powerful. They are the last group anyone wants to kick around. Any smart ruler would be careful around something that dangerous. The Elves were easy prey. History teaches us that easy prey doesn’t have a chance. Strong and power adversaries need to be studied and handled with great care. The Chantry in charge of the mages is the biggest mistake. They are not strategist. Think of the “Art of War”.
It was a political mistake to mistreat them. Early governments would have tried to befriend them or exterminate them. They are not easily exterminated because they look like everyone else. Mages are often born from non-magical families. Not all fathers rejected their mage child. Parents of these children could have been sympathetic to the mages. There were mage supporters.
The biggest problem was Kirkwall kicked too often and too hard. History is teeming with slave riots and rebellions. This was common in Europe. Whether they win or not depends on the strategy they use.

Knowledge of medieval times is appallingly low on these forums

I was thinking of the Reconquista myself. Do you think that all the people fighting in the “Reconquista” fought for the same reason? Isn’t 800 years of occupation an opportunity for people to find a personal axe to grind against their oppressor? Even if your leader states it is a holy war, the individual may have their own reasons. Are you really saying that families didn’t mind their daughters being dragged off as human sex toys? History books tell us why a group as a whole goes to war. My point is that people react to oppression in their own way.  They are not all accepting of it even if they don’t openly react to it.

The reconquista is only a small part medieval times and not excatly an enlightend one. But if you want a better example of medieval times then you can pick france , germany, italy and england as better examples. And i dont say that when a women is raped their are no consequences. But not in the way you imagine.

usual practice was to create a court of law  to punish the offender. In villages the village elders usually passed judgement. In the city judges where appointed. But rapist was either executed or exiled  ( which usually led to their deaths) furthermore the family of the accused had to pay a fine to the person wronged. The medieval times are not a shining example human rights but neither is it as lawless as some people claim.

[jamesp81]

GodWood wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Good job completely missing Dave's point.

Dave's point is wrong.  Thedas is pretty westernized and it's culture exhibits norms that are a few years ahead of it's 15th-ish century backdrop.  His point is invalid.

Still missing it.

<_<

[Cobra's_back]

DKJaigen - Thank you. I think my point to Dave was not clear. I never wanted to claim the period was lawless for all.
I did read examples of conquered people taken as slaves. The takeover of Spain displaced many women and children. It also happened in Greece, Italy and parts of southern France if my memory serves me correctly. The slave trafficking of Europeans had reached approximately 1 million. That number doesn’t seem small by my standards. The physical territory of countries being sacked seem rather large to me.

I was focused on Dave’s comments about Elves. They are a conquered people. In my mind Europe was attacked after the fall of Rome because they were weak. The Moors saw plenty of booty to be had. I should have clarified that Elves like conquered people didn’t get fair treatment.

Medieval law as I understood depended on the region a person lived. The Medieval period spans approximately a 1000 years and a vast area. The Germanic tribes were well noted for having a formal court. This I all know. History touches us all in a little way. The thing that burned into my memory reading this is that nations could afford to be weak.
Again, I’m sorry for the confusion.

[Cobra's_back]

DKJaigen – I went back and read Dave’s comments. I don’t think his point is the period is lawless. I really believe his points are tied to the game. Certaining, the books that David Gaider wrote spoke of injustices. He is not saying there are no laws. He is saying that not all are treated as equals under these laws. DAO in Denerim had a girl in the center market area that left Orlais because the law allowed the Chevaliers to rape any common women. Dave really didn’t tie it to a period in history.

I’m the person that used the term history carelessly. I really don’t believe justice was equal for all. Think how easy it was for a mob to kill a woman if they claimed she was a witch. Dragon Age women were equals. In the Middle Ages they were not.
Again, I’m sorry for using the term history.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Well, Thedas itself doesn't really seem to be a 1:1 match. Take for example, Varric talking about having printing presses. This inocuous little comment reveals a lot. It reveals that printing technology is known. It reveals that, at least in Kirkwall, literacy is high enough for there to be a market for mass-produced written material. Then there's Isabela, pirate girl extraordinaire, who is educated enough to both read and write, despite coming from a poor background and working in a profession where she should be, by any measure of logic, dying of scurvy. Those extrapolations make Thedas quite a bit further ahead in terms of culture and society. Then, take into consideration that men and women in Ferelden are viewed as equals, homosexuality is tolerated, abortifacients are known and openly used, and things like civil bureacracies and organized police forces exist, beyond being blatantly hired thugs.

Yeap... Thedas' present-day seems to take from a LONG swath of real-life history.

[Lisa_H]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Well, Thedas itself doesn't really seem to be a 1:1 match. Take for example, Varric talking about having printing presses. This inocuous little comment reveals a lot. It reveals that printing technology is known. It reveals that, at least in Kirkwall, literacy is high enough for there to be a market for mass-produced written material. Then there's Isabela, pirate girl extraordinaire, who is educated enough to both read and write, despite coming from a poor background and working in a profession where she should be, by any measure of logic, dying of scurvy. Those extrapolations make Thedas quite a bit further ahead in terms of culture and society. Then, take into consideration that men and women in Ferelden are viewed as equals, homosexuality is tolerated, abortifacients are known and openly used, and things like civil bureacracies and organized police forces exist, beyond being blatantly hired thugs.

I can agree on the printing presses, and yes Thedas seems to have a higher literacy rate, than one would expect from a medieval society.
But the rest; I think that the strong status women is much due to the Chantry which only allow women to the highest positions, and the fact that Andraste was a woman and a warleader. It can also be a heritage from the Tevinter Imperium. We know little of it, but it seems like in Tevinter people were valued after their magical abililty, and magic potential seems to be equally spread between genders.
Homosexuality has been accepted in ancient cultures like Rome and Greece, even if people were still expected to married in order to produce heirs.
Organized guards and bureacracies I think were quite developed in ancient Rome as well.
Abortifacients has always been used, but yes it has varied a lot on how openly they could be used.

Modifié par Lisa_H, 06 octobre 2011 - 05:05 .

[Cobra's_back]

DKJaigen- OOPs again Nations couldn't afford to be weak. There is a difference between raids and occupation. Spain, Portugal, Sicily were occupied I believe. The other areas were raided can’t remember.
A speech from a dog like Tariq doesn’t make me feel all were treated equal: “ Remember that if you suffer a few moments in patience, you will afterward enjoy supreme delight. Do not imagine that your fate can be separated from mine, and rest assured that if you fall, I shall perish with you, or avenge you. You have heard that in this country there are a large number of ravishingly beautiful Greek maidens, their graceful forms are draped in sumptuous gowns on which gleam pearls, coral, and purest gold, and they live in the palaces of royal kings. The Commander of True Believers, Alwalid, son of Abdalmelik, has chosen you for this attack from among all his Arab warriors; and he promises that you shall become his comrades. Such is his confidence in your intrepidity. The one fruit which he desires to obtain from your bravery is that the word of God shall be exalted in this country, and that the true religion shall be established here. The spoils will belong to yourselves.” People that make rape a religious thing.
Well no more from me. Exact timelines and battles are not the issue to me. Injustices to me was common, and to some their god given right.

[FedericoV]

Everwarden wrote...

Kemor wrote...
Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

Bad writing. The moment Orsino went full retard is the moment I wanted a refund. 

I would say cutten content: there's something clearly missing and that they could not develop in time.

Honestly, I cannot believe that Bioware really envisioned Orsino's final moment like that.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 octobre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Or that Hawke and a surviving sibling didn't get a chance for more outrage over Orsino's connection with and negligence regarding what he knew about Quentin.

[grimkillah]

I have to say siding with the Kikwall Templars is the "renegade" choice, however not because Kirkwall Templars are bad, but rather they are led by a person that is bad. Meredith is driven mad by the idol, and her orders must be countermanded, the annulment of the Kirkwall Circle for something they didn't do is wrong, plain and simple. Many here argue that Orsino is just as bad as the Knight-Commander herself, but that is really just monday morning quarterbacking. The very moment we have to choose which side to support, with all the information we have at the time, supporting the mages is the right option. We have no idea how the battle will turn out and how many mages will use blood magic to defend themselves or the connection Orsino had with Quentin, but what we know is killing of innocent people is wrong. Anders I killed, in every playthrough, because what he done is unforgivable, Grand Cleic Elthina was a good person, the only voice of reason in this crazy town, and he killed her for his own desire, he wanted war knowing millions will suffer, he deserve to die a much horrible death than the one given to him by Bioware. But despite that I still believe there is injustice with the mages and their situation in general, because by Andrastean teaching, Templars are meant to protect the mages from becoming abomination. that to me meant guiding and teaching mages to control both their power and emotions, so they are less likely to be targeted by demons, and yet somehow along the line, it becomes this oppressive system, where mages are not protected, but imprisoned. So for me Chantry may have good intention, but they are going about it the wrong way. This is why I sided with mages on my "paragon" playthrough, sometime the result may not be good, or popular, but it is the right thing to do.

[Sons of Horus]

grimkillah wrote...

I have to say siding with the Kikwall Templars is the "renegade" choice, however not because Kirkwall Templars are bad, but rather they are led by a person that is bad. Meredith is driven mad by the idol, and her orders must be countermanded, the annulment of the Kirkwall Circle for something they didn't do is wrong, plain and simple. Many here argue that Orsino is just as bad as the Knight-Commander herself, but that is really just monday morning quarterbacking. The very moment we have to choose which side to support, with all the information we have at the time, supporting the mages is the right option. We have no idea how the battle will turn out and how many mages will use blood magic to defend themselves or the connection Orsino had with Quentin, but what we know is killing of innocent people is wrong. Anders I killed, in every playthrough, because what he done is unforgivable, Grand Cleic Elthina was a good person, the only voice of reason in this crazy town, and he killed her for his own desire, he wanted war knowing millions will suffer, he deserve to die a much horrible death than the one given to him by Bioware. But despite that I still believe there is injustice with the mages and their situation in general, because by Andrastean teaching, Templars are meant to protect the mages from becoming abomination. that to me meant guiding and teaching mages to control both their power and emotions, so they are less likely to be targeted by demons, and yet somehow along the line, it becomes this oppressive system, where mages are not protected, but imprisoned. So for me Chantry may have good intention, but they are going about it the wrong way. This is why I sided with mages on my "paragon" playthrough, sometime the result may not be good, or popular, but it is the right thing to do.

And people say that Bioware had an thing against mages because of dragon age lol.

[Lisa_H]

I can agree that helping the templars might be the right choice. We know that the mages did not blow up the Chantry and we can be quite certain that not all practice blood magic, so innocent will be killed. The question is however if it is the best choice. We know very little of what is happening inside the Gallows. Meredith claim there blood mages there, and Orsino claim there are none. We know that Meredith at least is right to some degree. We have seen the letter signed with O. And Meredith sent us after three mages, and at least of them was a blood mage. Another known blood mage Grace spent several years in the tower, and we can guess she taught others as well. We know she taught Alain. So the mages are not so innocent as Orsino would like us to believe, but the question is if they are as guilty as Meredith wants us to believe. With this information we have to decide what we think is the best choice. Some of my Hawkes think siding with the templars is best, others think siding with the mages is best choice. The future will show who was right. It can be compared with the rachni queen in ME. Saving her is the right thing to do, as far as we know she is completely innocent. But ME3 will show us if it was the best choice. She will either be a great help, or a great threat.

[dragonflight288]

Orsino doesn't actually claim there aren't any blood mages in the Gallows. He questions Meredith on where she DOESN'T see blood magic. And he calls for Meredith to stop painting all mages with one brush.

[Stedd Melshimber]

I am not sure if this has been said because I am NOT reading through 12 pages before posting. 

From all the Codex and lore regarding Kirkwall in the game it is possible that the Veil is very thin there for some reason and is having an adverse effect on people in general but mages may be affected more by it due to their relation to the fade. You have throughout the game many demons locked away in hidden lairs. The Band of Three were on to something in regards to the Tevinter Imperium. You also have the Awiergan Scrolls and the affects of the Idol as well. With all the background info we are able to find it is very possible that Kirkwall's thin veil is letting many demons in the fade influence people very slightly. It's effects also may increase over a prolonged periods. I don't think that it was just Meredith and the Templars. Many different things played a part in the final outcome. Which makes it a great game to me.

IMHO

[Sons of Horus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Orsino doesn't actually claim there aren't any blood mages in the Gallows. He questions Meredith on where she DOESN'T see blood magic. And he calls for Meredith to stop painting all mages with one brush.

Orsino was quite negligent of cleaning his own circle too. He didnt even attempt to at least apprehend blood mages within his own circle or offer to cooperate with the law enforcement (ie either templars or the city guard) in dealing with renegade mages. Even Uldred was clever enough to shift blame and suspections somewhere else.

[ItsPhilsTime]

Sons of Horus wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Orsino doesn't actually claim there aren't any blood mages in the Gallows. He questions Meredith on where she DOESN'T see blood magic. And he calls for Meredith to stop painting all mages with one brush.

Orsino was quite negligent of cleaning his own circle too. He didnt even attempt to at least apprehend blood mages within his own circle or offer to cooperate with the law enforcement (ie either templars or the city guard) in dealing with renegade mages. Even Uldred was clever enough to shift blame and suspections somewhere else.

Yes Sons is right their with Orsino, see me both them did wrong, Templars are right to side with, how ever Meredith wasn't. Orsino and Meredith were the corupt ones, not the Templars or Mages in general.