420 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

The problem with the "choice" you are offered is that it is never recognised in game by anyone (except Sebastian obliquely) that it is wrong for a whole group of people to suffer for the actions of a few, or in the case of the bomb, the actions of one person. Since up to then we had been allowed the option of taking the middle ground, it should still have been possible to do so in the Last Straw (by for example offering to act as a neutral party searching the tower), but to avoid this "problem" the writers introduced the bomb and Anders actually saying it was done to take out the possibility of compromise.

There is also no distinction made between the situation of mages in the Kirkwall Circle, which it was reasonable to try and improve, and the agenda of the Resolutionists which is specifically stated to be to create terror in the population in order to get what they want. If you side with the mages, Varric actually says that he is unsure whether it is right to allow "dangerous people to run amock" with regard to saving the Circle. This was not my aim, but to save lives. It could just have easily countered that it is not right to allow dangerous Templars to run amock (but this was not an option). When persuading your companions to help, for example Fenris, it is along the lines of "I thought you were against slavery", so clearly implying that the decision is founded on the issue of mage freedom, rather than having an option saying "Is it right that innocent people die for something they didn't do?"

The writers seemed to be trying to pigeon hole you into either being on the side of the "establishment" and law and order, or on the side of "freedom" and condoning terrorism to achieve it. Allowing you to execute Anders was to my mind no consoltation for the fact that post RoA my Hawke's name is being remembered not as a champion of the innocent but as a rallying cry for rebellion. On the other hand, ruthless ambition is rewarded by the pro Templar Hawke being made Vicount.

Given that we fight the same boss battles in both cases, why does no one acknowledge among the Templars that may be Meredith was wrong to call the RoA and therefore Hawke was right to oppose her? In one run through I had supported the Templars on every occasion right up to that point including telling Orsino to let Meredith do her job by searching the Tower, but then Hawke supported the mages out of conscience. Given how many of their own number had been undermining Meredith's rule, which Cullen was well aware of, surely Hawke should have had greater respect for acting as he/she did, rather than simply taking the easier and more self interested path?

So I would be inclined to agree with the poster that siding with the Templars was the "Renegade" choice but the writers did not acknowledge that fact.

[Xilizhra]

Given that we fight the same boss battles in both cases, why does no one acknowledge among the Templars that may be Meredith was wrong to call the RoA and therefore Hawke was right to oppose her?

They're Kirkwall templars. Those who are both decent and brave enough to speak about it all joined the underground, and were eventually killed by Hawke. Everyone left is a de facto Meredith loyalist.

[TheJediSaint]

Even if Meredith were not barking mad, she would likely still have had to call for the Right of Annulment because the people of Kirkwall would have demanded it. The way the Chantry was destroyed would have left no doubt in the minds of the people that a Mage was responsible. And it would not be hard to imagine the people of Kirckwall being driven into a frenzy over the death of Elthina. Under those circumstances, even a sane Knight Commander would still invoke the RoA, simply to save the city from mob violence.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 09 octobre 2011 - 03:52 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not necessarily. She probably could have just brutally executed Anders in public or something and been done with it. Even Sebastian points out that it's unnessecary to invoke the Right of Annulment when the actual guilty party was right there.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 octobre 2011 - 03:53 .

[Wulfram]

The Mages are inside an extremely defensible fortress. Protecting them is supposed to be part of the Templar's job.

[Finnish Dragon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Given that we fight the same boss battles in both cases, why does no one acknowledge among the Templars that may be Meredith was wrong to call the RoA and therefore Hawke was right to oppose her?

They're Kirkwall templars. Those who are both decent and brave enough to speak about it all joined the underground, and were eventually killed by Hawke. Everyone left is a de facto Meredith loyalist.

True. However these brave and decent people participated kidnapping Hawke´s sibling or love interest which wasn´t very smart thing to do. They could have tried to contact both Orsino and Hawke. Then they should have tried to appeal the Grand Cleric in order to have Meredith removed by her superiors because so many people in her own troops doubted her ability to lead them. Both Orsino and Hawke could have supported that claim if they would have been persuaded to do so.

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

They're Kirkwall templars. Those who are both decent and brave enough to speak about it all joined the underground, and were eventually killed by Hawke. Everyone left is a de facto Meredith loyalist.

There is nothing brave or loyal about mutiny.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:58 .

[Xilizhra]

True. However these brave and decent people participated kidnapping Hawke´s sibling or love interest which wasn´t very smart thing to do. They could have tried to contact both Orsino and Hawke. Then they should have tried to appeal the Grand Cleric in order to have Meredith removed by her superiors because so many people in her own troops doubted her ability to lead them. Both Orsino and Hawke could have supported that claim if they would have been persuaded to do so.

I said they were decent and brave, not that they were that smart.

There is nothing brave or loyal about mutiny.

Sometimes it's the only moral thing to do, like now.

[ddv.rsa]

They could have resigned, or sent their complaints up the chain of command.

[Xilizhra]

ddv.rsa wrote...

They could have resigned, or sent their complaints up the chain of command.

People've already tried that. Meredith is the law and their only alternative is Grand Cleric Useless.

[ddv.rsa]

Most of what Meredith does up to calling for Annulment is easily defensible, if harsh. The Kirkwall Circle is full of Maleficarum and troublemakers in general. The corruption has even spilled over into the city.

Those who sided against Meredith are either motivated by personal gain, under control of blood magic, or are so sympathic to mages they are unsuitable as Templars. Thrask is so messed up he allows Grace to perform blood magic. Those rebels are the evil ones, not Meredith.

[xi ShadowWolf x]

Well for me it depends what character I'm playing on that playthrough, I see it as that there is no morally 'Good' or 'Bad' choice, Both sides have good points and flaws. It just depends on your play style of what you believe is, 'The right thing to do'.

[Xilizhra]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Most of what Meredith does up to calling for Annulment is easily defensible, if harsh. The Kirkwall Circle is full of Maleficarum and troublemakers in general. The corruption has even spilled over into the city.

Those who sided against Meredith are either motivated by personal gain, under control of blood magic, or are so sympathic to mages they are unsuitable as Templars. Thrask is so messed up he allows Grace to perform blood magic. Those rebels are the evil ones, not Meredith.

I hesitate to call Meredith evil because she's clearly insane, and not in real control over her actions. However, the underground isn't evil in the slightest; the only problem with them is that they were too quick to reject possible allies, and they died for it. I support their agenda and I'll not stop until the Templar Order is obliterated and the Chantry's control forever broken.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Which underground are you talking about? Thrask's only goal was to replace Meredith as Knight Commander of Krikwall. Anders is the only one who wanted to kill all Templars everywhere.

[Xilizhra]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Which underground are you talking about? Thrask's only goal was to replace Meredith as Knight Commander of Krikwall. Anders is the only one who wanted to kill all Templars everywhere.

Thrask's.
And I don't need to kill all templars everywhere if they defect from the Order. That'll still lead to its end.

[mredders91]

both sdies have "some" good in them but there ruling bodys are of the deep end and swiming in crazy

[Xilizhra]

mredders91 wrote...

both sdies have "some" good in them but there ruling bodys are of the deep end and swiming in crazy

Orsino's only ankle-deep.

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

I hesitate to call Meredith evil because she's clearly insane, and not in real control over her actions. However, the underground isn't evil in the slightest; the only problem with them is that they were too quick to reject possible allies, and they died for it. I support their agenda and I'll not stop until the Templar Order is obliterated and the Chantry's control forever broken.

Whether you're for or against the Chantry depends on what you value. Mages are extremely dangerous, even more so due to the risk of demonic possession. "Magic" today is not nearly as dramatic, but even so people often exile or kill suspected witches. However if you value rights and ideals enough then you'll want to free the mages at any cost. Even abolish the Chantry if you're really radical.

If on the other hand you value saftey for the majority and / or tradition you'll support the Chantry. If I lived in the Dragon Age universe I'd be very weary of mages and eagerly support the Templars.

[Xilizhra]

If on the other hand you value saftey for the majority and / or tradition you'll support the Chantry. If I lived in the Dragon Age universe I'd be very weary of mages and eagerly support the Templars.

I believe that the Chantry system doesn't significantly contribute to the safety of the majority and that a different system and the defeat of the templars will be better for all.

[ddv.rsa]

How so? Every mage in a Circle is one less to endanger ordinary people.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Whether that is the case or not, that certainly isn't Thrask's agenda. He's always seemed to believe strongly in the Chantry and the Templar Order. What he rebelled against was a corrupt Knight-Commander who seized power beyond the intention of her post.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Xilizhra]

ddv.rsa wrote...

How so? Every mage in a Circle is one less to endanger ordinary people.

And one less to to help ordinary people. How many would survive (in a medieval world, no less) with judicious applications of magical healing, who'd otherwise have died?

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...
And one less to to help ordinary people. How many would survive (in a medieval world, no less) with judicious applications of magical healing, who'd otherwise have died?

You sort of have a point. But while mages could heal people, the Circle system doesn't really stop that. Why couldn't people travel to the Circle to receive healing?

The Circle also allows mages to leave on official business. Why couldn't they open healing centers in the major cities with approved mages? These services could even be offered at Chantries as there are already Templar guards.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:54 .

[Xilizhra]

You sort of have a point. But while mages could heal people, the Circle system doesn't really stop that. Why couldn't people travel to the Circle to receive healing?

Magophobic religious practices, I daresay.

The Circle also allows mages to leave on official business. Why couldn't they open healing centers in the major cities with approved mages? These services could even be offered at Chantries as there are already Templar guards.

Ditto. I believe the command structure would want to ensure that no one starts to like mages too much.

[mredders91]

the similarity between what the Chantries do and what has realy happen in are world during the witch trial years is so very similar.

but realy the Chantries is holding all the cards for both the mages and templars and if you look at the codex realting to most "unpleasent event" the chantry is note for a good few of them they are basicaly using there religion as a weapon.
If the Chantry was eliminated then the possibility of mages and templars working together would be possible