420 réponses à ce sujet

[labargegrrrl]

here's what i don't get:
after reading all my codexes, especially if you read up on the Enigma and after reading some of the codexes in Legacy as well, i have to question who's stupid idea it was to put a Circle in Kirkwall to begin with?!  sure, let's just stick a center of magic in an old Tevintir stronghold, where the veil is thin, next to a  mountain with its own issues with magic, in a city with a history of violence (which can't have a great influence on the veil or on people's attitudes), that is very obviously corrupt from top to bottom!  what a perfect location for one of the two Circles (later one) in the entire Free Marches!  how could that possibly go wrong?

[jamesp81]

Yeah, you do wonder if someone at the Chantry who decides these things wasn't drinking on the job or something when he chose the locations. Hell, the Ferelden Circle apparently has a thin veil as well. Wynne alludes to it in party banter during Broken Circle.

[Cobra's_back]

labargegrrrl wrote...

here's what i don't get:
after reading all my codexes, especially if you read up on the Enigma and after reading some of the codexes in Legacy as well, i have to question who's stupid idea it was to put a Circle in Kirkwall to begin with?!  sure, let's just stick a center of magic in an old Tevintir stronghold, where the veil is thin, next to a  mountain with its own issues with magic, in a city with a history of violence (which can't have a great influence on the veil or on people's attitudes), that is very obviously corrupt from top to bottom!  what a perfect location for one of the two Circles (later one) in the entire Free Marches!  how could that possibly go wrong?

You got that right. It was stupid. The story had a crazy and stupid theme going on. Please don't forget the crazy lady with the purple lips or were they white. I forgot. The big mad mages had me in stitches laughing. Varric was my only bright spot.

[grimkillah]

One thing I forgot to add is siding with Templars at that very situation is basically siding with Meredith, while siding with Orsino isn't actually siding with him or the mages, but demand accountability for Meredith's action. Hence my choice.

[Finnish Dragon]

I disagree with that siding with Templars equals siding with Meredith. Hawke who sides with the Templars can still spare surrendering mages and later Hawke can defend Bethany if Bethany is alive and a member of then circle. In both cases, Meredith will disagree with Hawke wanting to kill every mage on sight. Basically, Meredith insanely wants to have a dictatorship under her rule in Kirkwall. That is why one must kill Meredith.

At the beginning, Orsino is more clever than Meredith. However, his weakness is that he cannot prevent his mages or even himself to fall to the blood magic. He also helped Quentin, the blood mage who killed Hawke´s mother. While Orsino and other mages want to be free, they don´t recognize that with freedom there will always to responsibility. That  

Orsino´s actions regarding Quentin condemn him because he allowed a blood mage to run free killing innocent people because he though that he could exploit Quentin´s research. That strongly suggested that Orsino supported magocracy in secret. Meredith was a brute and Orsino at the same time was the most conniving and double-dealing person in Kirkwall because at the same time requested Hawke´s help and he allowed Quentin to kill innocent people.

Choosing between just Meredith and Orsino is choosing between dictatorship and freedom without responsibility. The latter mean that one can do anything he/she wants without having any legal consequences of his/her acts. In practice, freedom without responsibility means anarchy and it means that "might is right". You can do anything you want as long as you do not irritate people who are stronger than you are because they could intervene in order to prevent you. If you want to have both rule of law and justice then both Meredith and Orsino must die.  

[DKJaigen]

@finnish dragon

We have no knowledge on the extent of Orsino's knowledge. So your making assumptions

[Finnish Dragon]

DKJaigen wrote...

@finnish dragon

We have no knowledge on the extent of Orsino's knowledge. So your making assumptions

AFAIK, turning oneself to harvester abomination is very advanced and twisted blood magic. That is exactly what Orsino did. It strongly implies that Orsino knew much more about blood magic than he told to anyone.

I don´t believe that Orsino used blood magic first time when he fought against Hawke. Meredith was probably very right that Orsino had studied blood magic and it is a known fact that Orsino didn´t turn Quentin in. When Orsino decided to use blood magic he ultimately condemned himself.

I think it is a foolish assumption to think that someone who is an experienced and skilled mage like Orsino is an amateur in blood magic especially when many other mages in his circle have already fallen to blood magic so my assumptions are justified while Orsino have done nothing that I to prevent mages using blood magic. 

Modifié par Finnish Dragon, 10 octobre 2011 - 10:09 .

[Porenferser]

For me it is good.
There are corrupt templars, but far more dangerous mages.

[DKJaigen]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

@finnish dragon

We have no knowledge on the extent of Orsino's knowledge. So your making assumptions

AFAIK, turning oneself to harvester abomination is very advanced and twisted blood magic. That is exactly what Orsino did. It strongly implies that Orsino knew much more about blood magic than he told to anyone.

I don´t believe that Orsino used blood magic first time when he fought against Hawke. Meredith was probably very right that Orsino had studied blood magic and it is a known fact that Orsino didn´t turn Quentin in. When Orsino decided to use blood magic he ultimately condemned himself.

I think it is a foolish assumption to think that someone who is an experienced and skilled mage like Orsino is an amateur in blood magic especially when many other mages in his circle have already fallen to blood magic so my assumptions are justified while Orsino have done nothing that I to prevent mages using blood magic. 

AFAIK? your speculating again. And untill i see some cold hard facts i will give orsino the benefit of the doubt.

[DKJaigen]

Porenferser wrote...

For me it is good.
There are corrupt templars, but far more dangerous mages.

You have the numbers do you?

[grimkillah]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

AFAIK, turning oneself to harvester abomination is very advanced and twisted blood magic. That is exactly what Orsino did. It strongly implies that Orsino knew much more about blood magic than he told to anyone.

I don´t believe that Orsino used blood magic first time when he fought against Hawke. Meredith was probably very right that Orsino had studied blood magic and it is a known fact that Orsino didn´t turn Quentin in. When Orsino decided to use blood magic he ultimately condemned himself.

I think it is a foolish assumption to think that someone who is an experienced and skilled mage like Orsino is an amateur in blood magic especially when many other mages in his circle have already fallen to blood magic so my assumptions are justified while Orsino have done nothing that I to prevent mages using blood magic. 

But how do you know Orsino turned himself into a Harvester or that he helped Quentin? There are no evidence to suggest beyond doubt that Orsino did any of this. What we do know is that Meredith wants to kill every mage in the Kirkwall circle for the action of an apostate. Guilt by association doesn't warrant annulment, otherwise, the fact Uldred is a blood mage means Wynne and First Enchanter Irving are also guilty of blood magic.

[Finnish Dragon]

grimkillah wrote...

But how do you know Orsino turned himself into a Harvester or that he helped Quentin? There are no evidence to suggest beyond doubt that Orsino did any of this. What we do know is that Meredith wants to kill every mage in the Kirkwall circle for the action of an apostate. Guilt by association doesn't warrant annulment, otherwise, the fact Uldred is a blood mage means Wynne and First Enchanter Irving are also guilty of blood magic.

What? Perhaps you should play last battle through as a templar. Let´s look at Dragon Age Wiki regarding the Last Straw and Quentin.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Straw

"If you sided with the templars, you will have to fight your way into the Gallows, facing mages as well as demons. If Anders was allowed to live, he will fight back, and you have to kill him. Once you get inside, you'll find Orsino, who uses blood magic to transform himself into a harvester that you have to defeat, with Meredith and some templars aiding you. Once the battle is done, Meredith tells you to meet her outside."

You claim that there is no evidence that Orsino turned himself to a harvester. I will rather trust my eyes and Dragon Age Wiki than someone saying white is black.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Quentin

"Quentin and his creatures are killed and Leandra dies in Hawke's arms. During the search, it is revealed that Quentin had a writing correspondence with someone with the initial "O", which is revealed to be Orsino in The Last Straw (Quest)."

Orsino had correspondence with Quentin and he didn´t expose Quentin. In my books, that equals protecting a dangerous criminal. Orsino got what he deserved because of protecting a dangerous criminal and using an extreme form of blood magic. The forms of blood magic available for the player are much milder in both DA:O and DAII. 

Comparing the Magic Circle in DA:O and DAII is interesting. Irving was much saner and had much better relationship to his Knight Commander than Orsino had to Meredith. I believe that it was the bad relationship between Orsino and Meredith, the lyrium idol and Meredith´s memory how her sister turned to an abomination which promoted Meredith´s paranoia. I think it is probable that Orsino expected a showdown between him and Meredith sooner or later and that is why he studied blood magic in order to gain advantage against Meredith.  

[grimkillah]

Upon arriving at the Gallows, a mage or a templar will inform you of what's going on. You and your companions travel to Lowtown where Meredith and Orsino argue about his harboring blood mages and her having the tower searched for them. They are about to take the matter to Grand Cleric Elthina when Anders interrupts, telling them the Grand Cleric cannot help them now before the chantry is destroyed by an explosive placed by him. This causes Meredith to invoke the Right of Annulment to kill all mages in the Circle, even though they were not involved with the apostate mage Anders' actions. You must choose to side with either Meredith and the templars or Orsino and the mages. Whichever choice you make will cause dissent in your party:

* If you agree to side with the templars then Merrill, Isabela and Bethany will disapprove.
* If you agree to side with the mages then Aveline, Carver and Fenris will disapprove.

Quoted from the same place. so at that moment in time, where is the evidence that Orsino turned into a harvester, or that Hawke learned that Orsino was helping Quentin. You are using the evidence you found after the event to justify your decision at the beginning of the event. But what you can't able to do is to justify your choice at the time in which you are required to make this decision with limited information.

Modifié par grimkillah, 10 octobre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Heimdall]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

grimkillah wrote...

But how do you know Orsino turned himself into a Harvester or that he helped Quentin? There are no evidence to suggest beyond doubt that Orsino did any of this. What we do know is that Meredith wants to kill every mage in the Kirkwall circle for the action of an apostate. Guilt by association doesn't warrant annulment, otherwise, the fact Uldred is a blood mage means Wynne and First Enchanter Irving are also guilty of blood magic.

What? Perhaps you should play last battle through as a templar. Let´s look at Dragon Age Wiki regarding the Last Straw and Quentin.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Straw

"If you sided with the templars, you will have to fight your way into the Gallows, facing mages as well as demons. If Anders was allowed to live, he will fight back, and you have to kill him. Once you get inside, you'll find Orsino, who uses blood magic to transform himself into a harvester that you have to defeat, with Meredith and some templars aiding you. Once the battle is done, Meredith tells you to meet her outside."

You claim that there is no evidence that Orsino turned himself to a harvester. I will rather trust my eyes and Dragon Age Wiki than someone saying white is black.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Quentin

"Quentin and his creatures are killed and Leandra dies in Hawke's arms. During the search, it is revealed that Quentin had a writing correspondence with someone with the initial "O", which is revealed to be Orsino in The Last Straw (Quest)."

Orsino had correspondence with Quentin and he didn´t expose Quentin. In my books, that equals protecting a dangerous criminal. Orsino got what he deserved because of protecting a dangerous criminal and using an extreme form of blood magic. The forms of blood magic available for the player are much milder in both DA:O and DAII. 

Actually, Orsino turns into a Harvester regardless of whether Hawke sides with the Mages or the Templars.

I would like you to show me where Orsino knew the extent of Quentin's crimes.  I was under the impression that Orsino only knew Quentin was studying blood magic, not that he was killing people. 

I believe Orsino had never practiced blood magic until that point.  Though he must have been intimately familiar with the theory.  He has no reason to lie right then.

[Finnish Dragon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Actually, Orsino turns into a Harvester regardless of whether Hawke sides with the Mages or the Templars.

I would like you to show me where Orsino knew the extent of Quentin's crimes.  I was under the impression that Orsino only knew Quentin was studying blood magic, not that he was killing people. 

I believe Orsino had never practiced blood magic until that point.  Though he must have been intimately familiar with the theory.  He has no reason to lie right then.

True, ultimately Orsino turns to harvester.

Quentin studing blood magic should have alarmed Orsino because if Orsino knew about Quentin´s studies in detail then he should have known that Quentin would need other people to finish his studies. Orsino knew enough about them to use them in the Act III when he turned himself a harvester. In order to become a harvester you will need dead bodies and that should have deeply alarmed Orsino.

Orsino claims that he didn´t practice blood magic before while Meredith said knowledge like that will not appear from the thin air. 

"Meredith: (To Orsino)[/i] "Do you take me for a fool? One does not summon such a ritual from thin air!""

At that point, I don´t trust person(Orsino) who was protecting a murderer(Quentin) in order to gain more knowledge in blood magic.  

[Heimdall]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Actually, Orsino turns into a Harvester regardless of whether Hawke sides with the Mages or the Templars.

I would like you to show me where Orsino knew the extent of Quentin's crimes.  I was under the impression that Orsino only knew Quentin was studying blood magic, not that he was killing people. 

I believe Orsino had never practiced blood magic until that point.  Though he must have been intimately familiar with the theory.  He has no reason to lie right then.

True, ultimately Orsino turns to harvester.

Quentin studing blood magic should have alarmed Orsino because if Orsino knew about Quentin´s studies in detail then he should have known that Quentin would need other people to finish his studies. Orsino knew enough about them to use them in the Act III when he turned himself a harvester. In order to become a harvester you will need dead bodies and that should have deeply alarmed Orsino.

Orsino claims that he didn´t practice blood magic before while Meredith said knowledge like that will not appear from the thin air. 

"Meredith: (To Orsino)[/i] "Do you take me for a fool? One does not summon such a ritual from thin air!""

At that point, I don´t trust person(Orsino) who was protecting a murderer(Quentin) in order to gain more knowledge in blood magic.  

It just doesn't make sense for him to lie then though.  I'm not saying he did not study blood magic, I'm just saying he didn't actualy perform blood magic before.

I'm not saying Orsino wasn't letting Quentin do reprehensible things, I'm just not sure he was fully aware of it.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 10 octobre 2011 - 01:38 .

[Finnish Dragon]

grimkillah wrote...

Quoted from the same place. so at that moment in time, where is the evidence that Orsino turned into a harvester, or that Hawke learned that Orsino was helping Quentin. You are using the evidence you found after the event to justify your decision at the beginning of the event. But what you can't able to do is to justify your choice at the time in which you are required to make this decision with limited information.

I think you wrote your original message poorly. In your original message you wrote: "But how do you know Orsino turned himself into a Harvester or that he helped Quentin?"

You should have said that how does Hawke know that. If you put the word you in that sentence then I understand it as you are pointing at me. If you our Hawke to that sentence then you are talking about the character. 

You are right that when the Chantry Cathedral of Kirkwall exploded Hawke and his/her companions didn´t know the connection between Orsino and Quentin. At that point, you must choose between Templars led by madwoman and mages led by Orsino who cannot really control them. That can be said killing so many blood mages during the Act III.

I choose templars because templars have melee weapons and bows. One insane templar is much less dangerous than a mage who is turned to an abomination. I will also spare all mages who are willing to surrender.

[grimkillah]

DA2 is a RPG game, I know some might argue otherwise, but for the sack of the argument, it is. Then I assume we are talking about this decision as Hawke experienced, not as what irl might think afterwards.

The reason of my choice is simple, right of annulment for what someone else is done is wrong. If Meredith want to root out blood mages, there are other ways, and if she needs blood sacrifice, Anders is the prime target. Instead she when completely mad, and wanting to kill everyone in the Circle, which may include blood mages but also innocent mages too. When Meredith can't distinguish right and wrong, then her cause must be stopped. Remember, Orsino didn't ask you (Hawke) to kill all the Templars, just to prevent the destruction of the Circle, while Meredith wants blood and revenge, nothing more, so siding with her is clearly the "evil" choice.

[DKJaigen]

Finnish Dragon wrote...



I choose templars because templars have melee weapons and bows. One insane templar is much less dangerous than a mage who is turned to an abomination. I will also spare all mages who are willing to surrender.

LOL.Boy you got a really ****ed up moral system. You dont judge people if they have swords or can shoot fire balls. You judge them on their actions. And in our world killing an entire group of people because of the actions of 1 IS WRONG.

[grimkillah]

One thing, we are talking about our choice in a "paragon" playthrough right?
I mean if it is a evil, hostile, renegade Hawke, then siding with Templars might be the right choice, given that you get to become the Viscount.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

It doesn't matter who we side with in this game because it changes nothing in the game. If you side with the mages you kill both if you side with Templars you kill both and now that we know the next game we arn't going to be playing as Hawke it really doesn't matter at all.

In DA3 what you decided in DA2 won't change anything because nothing Hawke did was able to change anything one way or the other.

[Finnish Dragon]

grimkillah wrote...

DA2 is a RPG game, I know some might argue otherwise, but for the sack of the argument, it is. Then I assume we are talking about this decision as Hawke experienced, not as what irl might think afterwards.

The reason of my choice is simple, right of annulment for what someone else is done is wrong. If Meredith want to root out blood mages, there are other ways, and if she needs blood sacrifice, Anders is the prime target. Instead she when completely mad, and wanting to kill everyone in the Circle, which may include blood mages but also innocent mages too. When Meredith can't distinguish right and wrong, then her cause must be stopped. Remember, Orsino didn't ask you (Hawke) to kill all the Templars, just to prevent the destruction of the Circle, while Meredith wants blood and revenge, nothing more, so siding with her is clearly the "evil" choice.

Ultimate problem with mages is that they can become abominations. Not all mages will become abominations and usually the Knight Commander does not decide the whether it is appropriate to use the Right of Annulment. Usually, his superior, the Grand Cleric will probably decide if that is necessary. The problem was that the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall was killed when the Chantry was blown up. 

My guess is that Anders knew (or guessed) those orders and wanted to force Meredith to give an order for the Right of Annulment. That explosion shocked the whole Kirkwall and Meredith probably knew that unless there would be a quick reaction then there would be city wide riots. It is a known fact that Meredith was very suspicious towards mages because her sister Amelia  was once a mage and her sister killed 70 villagers. After that Meredith joined the Templars and was ultimately appointed to be Kirkwall´s Knight-Commander. I believe that she was a very bad candidate for that role because of her past. 

I think choosing between Templars and Mages is like choosing between Cholera and Plague. There are no good options. I think what ultimately matters is how you see mages in DA2. Good mages are very rare in DA2 and that makes very easy to hate the Circle and the mages in general in DA2.

[grimkillah]

But that is the point, it is not the choice between mages and templars, it is the choice between annulment or not. you are up against Meredith's order, not openly support mages in freedom, Orsino didn't ask you to kill the templars, he didn't even ask you to free all the mages, he just ask you to defend the Circle from a massacre. To side with Meredith is to side with the murder of innocent people, we are not dealing with what could be, or what will be, we are dealing with one fact, murdering of innocence due to Anders action.
If you kill the mages because they are a threat, then who do you kill after you killed all the mages? Templars with sword and bows are more dangerous that unarmed civilians, do you then kill them too? based on your logic, you will end up surround yourself with deserts, and call that peace. But if I place a mirror in front of you, then you will see the truly dangerous thing, yourself, because you have done all this, not mages and templars, you (your hawke) are the most dangerous thing in Kirkwall.

[jamesp81]

The RoA is pretty evil in all situations, no matter what.

When it's called, part of it is that templars will enter the circle tower and stick swords through the chests of every six and seven year old that was just brought to the tower for training. BW doesn't really show you this on screen, but it IS happening.

[TheJediSaint]

jamesp81 wrote...

The RoA is pretty evil in all situations, no matter what.

When it's called, part of it is that templars will enter the circle tower and stick swords through the chests of every six and seven year old that was just brought to the tower for training. BW doesn't really show you this on screen, but it IS happening.

And I bet Ander's was fully aware of that when he decided to off Ethina.