420 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The RoA is pretty evil in all situations, no matter what.

When it's called, part of it is that templars will enter the circle tower and stick swords through the chests of every six and seven year old that was just brought to the tower for training. BW doesn't really show you this on screen, but it IS happening.

And I bet Ander's was fully aware of that when he decided to off Ethina.

Anders was attempting to force a resolution where the RoA was done away with.  Doing nothing let's it's existence continue.

Not the way I would've handled it, granted, but the idea was "suffer now to reduce suffering later".

Still, I think he'd have been better off if he'd put the damn bomb in Meredith's office.

[grimkillah]

You bet he does. I wonder sometime if the justice thing is just an act, maybe it was a demon afterall. There are so many ways mage's life can be improved, but instead he choose the most destructive and divisive way to go about it. Out of 3 playthroughs, I always kill Anders after this, what he done is unforgivable. In fact I felt if DA3 is about this templar-mage war, I would actually side with Templars, and put all the mages back into the circles again. Mages cannot earn their freedom on an act of terrorism, they just don't deserve it in this way.

[grimkillah]

oops double post, how do you delete it.

Modifié par grimkillah, 10 octobre 2011 - 04:22 .

[TheJediSaint]

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The RoA is pretty evil in all situations, no matter what.

When it's called, part of it is that templars will enter the circle tower and stick swords through the chests of every six and seven year old that was just brought to the tower for training. BW doesn't really show you this on screen, but it IS happening.

And I bet Ander's was fully aware of that when he decided to off Ethina.

Anders was attempting to force a resolution where the RoA was done away with.  Doing nothing let's it's existence continue.

Not the way I would've handled it, granted, but the idea was "suffer now to reduce suffering later".

Still, I think he'd have been better off if he'd put the damn bomb in Meredith's office.

Too bad Ander's never asked if the mages in Kirkwall were down with the "suffer now" part.

[jamesp81]

grimkillah wrote...

You bet he does. I wonder sometime if the justice thing is just an act, maybe it was a demon afterall. There are so many ways mage's life can be improved, but instead he choose the most destructive and divisive way to go about it. Out of 3 playthroughs, I always kill Anders after this, what he done is unforgivable. In fact I felt if DA3 is about this templar-mage war, I would actually side with Templars, and put all the mages back into the circles again. Mages cannot earn their freedom on an act of terrorism, they just don't deserve it in this way.

I can't label it terrorism.  Meredith was out of control and was openly flouting Chantry law on treatment of mages.  Elthina had a responsibilty to reign that barking madwoman in, and she refused to do it.

In most western countries, commanders are held responsible for the actions of their subordinates.  Elthina completely ****ing failed in her duty, making a man like Anders inevitable.  Since she's in command of the local templars, that makes her part and party to their abuses.  That makes her a legitimate target.

The Chantry is a respected institution, so from a practical standpoint I think he made the wrong choice of targets.  Should've killed Meredith and Cullen, and perhaps Orsino since he also seemed to have contracted the Barking Mads.  From a wartime standpoint, however, Elthina was a legitimate target.  Just not the right one given the situation.

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The RoA is pretty evil in all situations, no matter what.

When it's called, part of it is that templars will enter the circle tower and stick swords through the chests of every six and seven year old that was just brought to the tower for training. BW doesn't really show you this on screen, but it IS happening.

And I bet Ander's was fully aware of that when he decided to off Ethina.

Anders was attempting to force a resolution where the RoA was done away with.  Doing nothing let's it's existence continue.

Not the way I would've handled it, granted, but the idea was "suffer now to reduce suffering later".

Still, I think he'd have been better off if he'd put the damn bomb in Meredith's office.

Too bad Ander's never asked if the mages in Kirkwall were down with the "suffer now" part.

Given the quantity of rebellious mages we see, I got the impression they were alright with it.

Do you propose that fighting the templars only happen once there is unanimous agreement among the mages?

[DKJaigen]

grimkillah wrote...

You bet he does. I wonder sometime if the justice thing is just an act, maybe it was a demon afterall. There are so many ways mage's life can be improved, but instead he choose the most destructive and divisive way to go about it. Out of 3 playthroughs, I always kill Anders after this, what he done is unforgivable. In fact I felt if DA3 is about this templar-mage war, I would actually side with Templars, and put all the mages back into the circles again. Mages cannot earn their freedom on an act of terrorism, they just don't deserve it in this way.

This kind of "logic"baffles me. So the current system blows up and causes a war which brings a lot of suffering. And you just say: lets reinstate this system so it can blow up again and cause even more suffering. Also i believe that the only way for the mages to have a better quality of live is through violence. Religion is rarely rational and no doubt the chantry has blocked nearly all attempts to change because they are comfortable the way they are. Take this example:

http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

The mindset of the chantry is this: Its either circles or a tevinter imperium. Against such bias their is no way for compromise

[TheJediSaint]

DKJaigen wrote...

grimkillah wrote...

You bet he does. I wonder sometime if the justice thing is just an act, maybe it was a demon afterall. There are so many ways mage's life can be improved, but instead he choose the most destructive and divisive way to go about it. Out of 3 playthroughs, I always kill Anders after this, what he done is unforgivable. In fact I felt if DA3 is about this templar-mage war, I would actually side with Templars, and put all the mages back into the circles again. Mages cannot earn their freedom on an act of terrorism, they just don't deserve it in this way.

This kind of "logic"baffles me. So the current system blows up and causes a war which brings a lot of suffering. And you just say: lets reinstate this system so it can blow up again and cause even more suffering. Also i believe that the only way for the mages to have a better quality of live is through violence. Religion is rarely rational and no doubt the chantry has blocked nearly all attempts to change because they are comfortable the way they are. Take this example:

http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

The mindset of the chantry is this: Its either circles or a tevinter imperium. Against such bias their is no way for compromise

The problem is that to most people in Chantry lands , Anders' actions in Kirkwall would only serve to reinforce that bias.

[grimkillah]

DKJaigen wrote...
This kind of "logic"baffles me. So the current system blows up and causes a war which brings a lot of suffering. And you just say: lets reinstate this system so it can blow up again and cause even more suffering. Also i believe that the only way for the mages to have a better quality of live is through violence. Religion is rarely rational and no doubt the chantry has blocked nearly all attempts to change because they are comfortable the way they are. Take this example:

http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

The mindset of the chantry is this: Its either circles or a tevinter imperium. Against such bias their is no way for compromise

If you think the only way for mages to have better quality of life is through violence, then you are no different to those you claim to hate. The Templars believe real security can only be achieve through mass annulment of mages, and if you think to kill all templars and folks who follow the Chantry is right, then you are no different to the fanatics in the Templar order and the Chantry. Furthermore you have just proven that the Chantry is right, that it is either the Circle or a Tevinter Imperium. For me this is an easy choice, it is kingdom of conscience or nothing. I do in fact believe the lives of mages can be improved by humble our opponents within their conscience, instead on a battlefield. So to help them achieve freedom through violence is wrong, I will put them all back into the circle, just so I can help them achieve real freedom through non-violent means all over again, only this way can gains made be permanent.

Modifié par grimkillah, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:27 .

[DKJaigen]

grimkillah wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
This kind of "logic"baffles me. So the current system blows up and causes a war which brings a lot of suffering. And you just say: lets reinstate this system so it can blow up again and cause even more suffering. Also i believe that the only way for the mages to have a better quality of live is through violence. Religion is rarely rational and no doubt the chantry has blocked nearly all attempts to change because they are comfortable the way they are. Take this example:

http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

The mindset of the chantry is this: Its either circles or a tevinter imperium. Against such bias their is no way for compromise

If you think the only way for mages to have better quality of life is through violence, then you are no different to those you claim to hate.

Who said i hate the templars?

The Templars believe real security can only be achieve through mass annulment of mages, and if you think to kill all templars and folks who follow the Chantry is right,

Who said i wish to kill as templars or followers of the chantry?

then you are no different to the fanatics in the Templar order and the Chantry. Furthermore you have just proven that the Chantry is right, that it is either the Circle or a Tevinter Imperium.

Did i?

For me this is an easy choice, it is kingdom of conscience or nothing.

The chantry lacks that. They take their own conscience\\ from corrupted holy texts. thats far more evil then the tevinter imperium

I do in fact believe the lives of mages can be improved by humble our opponents within their conscience, instead on a battlefield.So to help them achieve freedom through violence is wrong, I will put them all back into the circle, just so I can help them achieve real freedom through non-violent means all over again, only this way can gains made be permanent.

Such innocence warms my heart but i also makes your arguments immature and childish.

[DKJaigen]

TheJediSaint wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

grimkillah wrote...

You bet he does. I wonder sometime if the justice thing is just an act, maybe it was a demon afterall. There are so many ways mage's life can be improved, but instead he choose the most destructive and divisive way to go about it. Out of 3 playthroughs, I always kill Anders after this, what he done is unforgivable. In fact I felt if DA3 is about this templar-mage war, I would actually side with Templars, and put all the mages back into the circles again. Mages cannot earn their freedom on an act of terrorism, they just don't deserve it in this way.

This kind of "logic"baffles me. So the current system blows up and causes a war which brings a lot of suffering. And you just say: lets reinstate this system so it can blow up again and cause even more suffering. Also i believe that the only way for the mages to have a better quality of live is through violence. Religion is rarely rational and no doubt the chantry has blocked nearly all attempts to change because they are comfortable the way they are. Take this example:

http://dragonage.wik...rding_Apostates

The mindset of the chantry is this: Its either circles or a tevinter imperium. Against such bias their is no way for compromise

The problem is that to most people in Chantry lands , Anders' actions in Kirkwall would only serve to reinforce that bias.

Who cares. In fact i would use the chantry's own fearmongering against them. But the longer the mage templar war continues the possibility of either the qunari or the tevinter empire invading increases. When that happens popular support shifts to the mages.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 10 octobre 2011 - 09:24 .

[dragonflight288]

Popular support will shift to mages so long as the Templars rebel against the chantry to go on a mage hunt...the longer that lasts, the more support mages will have. Templars have a HUGE advantage in military training, religious zeal as the main bases for recruitment (not moral fiber), organization, and a set hierarchy.

However, they are addicted to lyrium. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with Orzammar. A random smuggler or two will not provide the lyrium to feed an army. Heck, templars are not allowed to have land or worldly power (something Meredith refused to accept because she was too afraid that the new viscount would not be willing to show oversight to templar actions...something Senchal Bran outright states)

Without land or vassals, Templars have no source of income. No real source of food and drink, and an army marches on its stomach. In order to get lyrium and the necessary supplies, they need to go to the Chantry, but Varic and Cassandra say the templars rebelled.

When an army has thousands of people gathered together for a religious cause, and almost all the soldiers are zealots, they will see every last thing they do as justified in the eyes of the Maker, even cruel and horrid things.

They will rape and pillage across all of Thedas just to get supplies and lyrium so they can continue their witch hunt.

Granted, I'm not so anti-templar that I can't see the bad eggs on the mages side. Blood magic, abominations, those wanting power, those wanting to abolish the chantry in its entirety. Every such mage will be in a minority, but the actual damage a mage can do far exceeds the average man and woman in Thedas.

No matter who wins, it will be bloody, and the people will be split into two camps. Anti-mage or anti-templar.

I honestly can't say siding with the templars or the mages at this stage of history is actually good or evil. The Chantry's entire system allows Templars to abuse their power over mages to horrific levels and will turn a blind eye. But one untrained mage, one overzealous one, reaching too far too fast can spell a great deal of destruction (pun not intended.)

The mages NEED a place to study magic and learn to master their powers, use what's best, not what's base (thanks Malcolm. lol.) But the Templars cannot be allowed so much authority over mages either.

[TheJediSaint]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Popular support will shift to mages so long as the Templars rebel against the chantry to go on a mage hunt...the longer that lasts, the more support mages will have. Templars have a HUGE advantage in military training, religious zeal as the main bases for recruitment (not moral fiber), organization, and a set hierarchy.

However, they are addicted to lyrium. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with Orzammar. A random smuggler or two will not provide the lyrium to feed an army. Heck, templars are not allowed to have land or worldly power (something Meredith refused to accept because she was too afraid that the new viscount would not be willing to show oversight to templar actions...something Senchal Bran outright states)

Without land or vassals, Templars have no source of income. No real source of food and drink, and an army marches on its stomach. In order to get lyrium and the necessary supplies, they need to go to the Chantry, but Varic and Cassandra say the templars rebelled.

When an army has thousands of people gathered together for a religious cause, and almost all the soldiers are zealots, they will see every last thing they do as justified in the eyes of the Maker, even cruel and horrid things.

They will rape and pillage across all of Thedas just to get supplies and lyrium so they can continue their witch hunt.

Granted, I'm not so anti-templar that I can't see the bad eggs on the mages side. Blood magic, abominations, those wanting power, those wanting to abolish the chantry in its entirety. Every such mage will be in a minority, but the actual damage a mage can do far exceeds the average man and woman in Thedas.

No matter who wins, it will be bloody, and the people will be split into two camps. Anti-mage or anti-templar.

I honestly can't say siding with the templars or the mages at this stage of history is actually good or evil. The Chantry's entire system allows Templars to abuse their power over mages to horrific levels and will turn a blind eye. But one untrained mage, one overzealous one, reaching too far too fast can spell a great deal of destruction (pun not intended.)

The mages NEED a place to study magic and learn to master their powers, use what's best, not what's base (thanks Malcolm. lol.) But the Templars cannot be allowed so much authority over mages either.

Short Answer: It's a  huge cluster screw that Bioware expects the player to fix next game.

[TEWR]

Question: Since there were Templar assassins in Dragon Age 2 that used rogue abilities (backstab, stealth, and the like), does this mean that Rogues learn their own Templar abilities against Fade denizens and mages?

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is yes, could mages learn their own type of Templar abilities that work against Fade denizens and mages?

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Popular support will shift to mages so long as the Templars rebel against the chantry to go on a mage hunt...the longer that lasts, the more support mages will have. Templars have a HUGE advantage in military training, religious zeal as the main bases for recruitment (not moral fiber), organization, and a set hierarchy.

However, they are addicted to lyrium. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with Orzammar. A random smuggler or two will not provide the lyrium to feed an army. Heck, templars are not allowed to have land or worldly power (something Meredith refused to accept because she was too afraid that the new viscount would not be willing to show oversight to templar actions...something Senchal Bran outright states)

Without land or vassals, Templars have no source of income. No real source of food and drink, and an army marches on its stomach. In order to get lyrium and the necessary supplies, they need to go to the Chantry, but Varic and Cassandra say the templars rebelled.

When an army has thousands of people gathered together for a religious cause, and almost all the soldiers are zealots, they will see every last thing they do as justified in the eyes of the Maker, even cruel and horrid things.

They will rape and pillage across all of Thedas just to get supplies and lyrium so they can continue their witch hunt.

Granted, I'm not so anti-templar that I can't see the bad eggs on the mages side. Blood magic, abominations, those wanting power, those wanting to abolish the chantry in its entirety. Every such mage will be in a minority, but the actual damage a mage can do far exceeds the average man and woman in Thedas.

No matter who wins, it will be bloody, and the people will be split into two camps. Anti-mage or anti-templar.

I honestly can't say siding with the templars or the mages at this stage of history is actually good or evil. The Chantry's entire system allows Templars to abuse their power over mages to horrific levels and will turn a blind eye. But one untrained mage, one overzealous one, reaching too far too fast can spell a great deal of destruction (pun not intended.)

The mages NEED a place to study magic and learn to master their powers, use what's best, not what's base (thanks Malcolm. lol.) But the Templars cannot be allowed so much authority over mages either.

Short Answer: It's a  huge cluster screw that Bioware expects the player to fix next game.

Yes, but that's why it's fun.

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Question: Since there were Templar assassins in Dragon Age 2 that used rogue abilities (backstab, stealth, and the like), does this mean that Rogues learn their own Templar abilities against Fade denizens and mages?

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is yes, could mages learn their own type of Templar abilities that work against Fade denizens and mages?

I would assume the answer to both questions is yes.

Templars using roguish tactics is merely a matter of training.  In a well balanced force you need front line soldiers and stealthier soldiers as well.

As for mages, learning templar-like abilities, there's no reason it shouldn't work.  Templar talents can be learned by anyone, which is actually very interesting lore-wise. 

The whole thing with templar talents is very odd.  The Chantry doesn't view what templars do as magic, but it really is.  But where is that power coming from?  Templars are not mages, they can't connect to the Fade and pull in power the way mages can.  So far, in the game-lore, we think of power for magic coming from the Fade.  Could it also be that some magics can draw their power from the mortal world, and this is what templars tap into?  Perhaps a living mortal's will can suffice as a source of power, and this is how templars do what they do.

If that's the case, there's no reason mages couldn't learn those talents as well.  It might even be that theorized magic that comes from the mortal realm is anathema to that of the Fade realm, which is why templars can fight abominations and shades so effectively.

Edit:

And while we're on the topic of templars having abilities that appear magical but supposedly aren't, much the same can be said for Reavers.

Modifié par jamesp81, 10 octobre 2011 - 11:33 .

[TEWR]

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Question: Since there were Templar assassins in Dragon Age 2 that used rogue abilities (backstab, stealth, and the like), does this mean that Rogues learn their own Templar abilities against Fade denizens and mages?

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is yes, could mages learn their own type of Templar abilities that work against Fade denizens and mages?

I would assume the answer to both questions is yes.

Templars using roguish tactics is merely a matter of training.  In a well balanced force you need front line soldiers and stealthier soldiers as well.

As for mages, learning templar-like abilities, there's no reason it shouldn't work.  Templar talents can be learned by anyone, which is actually very interesting lore-wise. 

The whole thing with templar talents is very odd.  The Chantry doesn't view what templars do as magic, but it really is.  But where is that power coming from?  Templars are not mages, they can't connect to the Fade and pull in power the way mages can.  So far, in the game-lore, we think of power for magic coming from the Fade.  Could it also be that some magics can draw their power from the mortal world, and this is what templars tap into?  Perhaps a living mortal's will can suffice as a source of power, and this is how templars do what they do.

If that's the case, there's no reason mages couldn't learn those talents as well.  It might even be that theorized magic that comes from the mortal realm is anathema to that of the Fade realm, which is why templars can fight abominations and shades so effectively.

I remember that Spirit Warriors -- who are basically a Templar Mage combo -- were described as working with the spirits of the Fade to enhance their talents. I also remember that it said Templars rarely acknowledge the distinction of Spirit Warriors not being mages (unless I misunderstood the description)

Although spirit warriors employ magical abilities, they are not mages; instead, they flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world. Naturally, the Chantry's templars rarely acknowledge that distinction.

So, I think Templars and Spirit Warriors are sort of sister schools of training and the Chantry doesn't acknowledge this, much like how becoming a Reaver and the talents associated with it are a form of blood magic (as well as the Joining ritual of the Wardens and the phylacteries themselves).

And for those ready to claim phylacteries aren't blood magic, I give you this. Gascard DuPuis -- a known blood mage -- took Alessa's blood in order to track her should she go missing. This is what a phylactery does. It allows the person to track a mage by using their blood. So, phylacteries are indeed a form of blood magic.

edit: I assume the Templars augment their phylacteries by adding lyrium. The phylacteries are said to glow when in proximity to a mage and so does lyrium, so by doing this they remove the mage from the picture because they can't have mages using blood magic. However the result is still the same. The phylacteries do the same purpose and are still blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .

[grimkillah]

DKJaigen wrote...

Who said i hate the templars? - you did

Who said i wish to kill as templars or followers of the chantry? - again you did

Did i? - yep

The chantry lacks that. They take their own conscience from corrupted holy texts. thats far more evil then the tevinter imperium

The holy text seem ok, certain individuals however are corrupted.

Such innocence warms my heart but i also makes your arguments immature and childish.

Lacking real solutions now are we, so you have to resort to ridicules?

hoping for a Tevinter or Qunari invasion to help you? Laughable. An apostate and a quasi-abomination was part of the team that defeated Archdemon, look how quickly people forget their contributions.

[DKJaigen]

grimkillah wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Who said i hate the templars? - you did

Who said i wish to kill as templars or followers of the chantry? - again you did

Did i? - yep

The chantry lacks that. They take their own conscience from corrupted holy texts. thats far more evil then the tevinter imperium

The holy text seem ok, certain individuals however are corrupted.

Such innocence warms my heart but i also makes your arguments immature and childish.

Lacking real solutions now are we, so you have to resort to ridicules?

hoping for a Tevinter or Qunari invasion to help you? Laughable. An apostate and a quasi-abomination was part of the team that defeated Archdemon, look how quickly people forget their contributions.

Their contributions will not be noted the absence of said contributions will be noted

[Porenferser]

DKJaigen wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

For me it is good.
There are corrupt templars, but far more dangerous mages.

You have the numbers do you?

Yes.
And they say that there are only 6 corrupt templars in all DA (and don't argue with the nameless ones please. If I'd count them, the mages would be even more outnumbered).

[DKJaigen]

Porenferser wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

For me it is good.
There are corrupt templars, but far more dangerous mages.

You have the numbers do you?

Yes.
And they say that there are only 6 corrupt templars in all DA (and don't argue with the nameless ones please. If I'd count them, the mages would be even more outnumbered).

If you say so but i rather have the actual numbers

Modifié par DKJaigen, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:08 .

[Finnish Dragon]

Porenferser wrote...

Yes.
And they say that there are only 6 corrupt templars in all DA (and don't argue with the nameless ones please. If I'd count them, the mages would be even more outnumbered).

I don´t know how you define corrupted templars but my list of 6 corrupted templars known by names in the current DA universe is following:

Knight-Commander Harrith (collaboration and protecting the Mages´ Collective, the renegade mages)
Meredith
Ser Karras, overzealous and ruthless hunter of mages
Ser Otto Alrik, the Mage Solution
Ser Varnell, Sister Petrice´s (former) bodyguard and co-conspirator
Wilmod for being possessed by a demon

Just in DAII, there are at least 13 evil mages before you will fight against Orsino. These mages are Decimus, Danzig, Evelina, Grace, Hadriana, Heborah de Soliere, Huon, Idunna, Innley of Starkhaven, Jake the Black, Olivia, Quentin and Tarohne. I define them evil because they are willing to hurt other people, many of them attack you on sight and many of them are willing to use undead and/or demons to promote their agenda.  

[DKJaigen]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Yes.
And they say that there are only 6 corrupt templars in all DA (and don't argue with the nameless ones please. If I'd count them, the mages would be even more outnumbered).

I don´t know how you define corrupted templars but my list of 6 corrupted templars known by names in the current DA universe is following:

Knight-Commander Harrith (collaboration and protecting the Mages´ Collective, the renegade mages)
Meredith
Ser Karras, overzealous and ruthless hunter of mages
Ser Otto Alrik, the Mage Solution
Ser Varnell, Sister Petrice´s (former) bodyguard and co-conspirator
Wilmod for being possessed by a demon

Just in DAII, there are at least 13 evil mages before you will fight against Orsino. These mages are Decimus, Danzig, Evelina, Grace, Hadriana, Heborah de Soliere, Huon, Idunna, Innley of Starkhaven, Jake the Black, Olivia, Quentin and Tarohne. I define them evil because they are willing to hurt other people, many of them attack you on sight and many of them are willing to use undead and/or demons to promote their agenda.  

So? I need numbers of the whole group i dont give a damn if we only see some mages that go rogue. And i dont even give damn some templars go rogue.
FFS that in this age people still judge other people because they are associated makes me feel like we are back in the dark ages again

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Question: Since there were Templar assassins in Dragon Age 2 that used rogue abilities (backstab, stealth, and the like), does this mean that Rogues learn their own Templar abilities against Fade denizens and mages?

Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is yes, could mages learn their own type of Templar abilities that work against Fade denizens and mages?

I would assume the answer to both questions is yes.

Templars using roguish tactics is merely a matter of training.  In a well balanced force you need front line soldiers and stealthier soldiers as well.

As for mages, learning templar-like abilities, there's no reason it shouldn't work.  Templar talents can be learned by anyone, which is actually very interesting lore-wise. 

The whole thing with templar talents is very odd.  The Chantry doesn't view what templars do as magic, but it really is.  But where is that power coming from?  Templars are not mages, they can't connect to the Fade and pull in power the way mages can.  So far, in the game-lore, we think of power for magic coming from the Fade.  Could it also be that some magics can draw their power from the mortal world, and this is what templars tap into?  Perhaps a living mortal's will can suffice as a source of power, and this is how templars do what they do.

If that's the case, there's no reason mages couldn't learn those talents as well.  It might even be that theorized magic that comes from the mortal realm is anathema to that of the Fade realm, which is why templars can fight abominations and shades so effectively.

I remember that Spirit Warriors -- who are basically a Templar Mage combo -- were described as working with the spirits of the Fade to enhance their talents. I also remember that it said Templars rarely acknowledge the distinction of Spirit Warriors not being mages (unless I misunderstood the description)

Although spirit warriors employ magical abilities, they are not mages; instead, they flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world. Naturally, the Chantry's templars rarely acknowledge that distinction.

So, I think Templars and Spirit Warriors are sort of sister schools of training and the Chantry doesn't acknowledge this, much like how becoming a Reaver and the talents associated with it are a form of blood magic (as well as the Joining ritual of the Wardens and the phylacteries themselves).

And for those ready to claim phylacteries aren't blood magic, I give you this. Gascard DuPuis -- a known blood mage -- took Alessa's blood in order to track her should she go missing. This is what a phylactery does. It allows the person to track a mage by using their blood. So, phylacteries are indeed a form of blood magic.

edit: I assume the Templars augment their phylacteries by adding lyrium. The phylacteries are said to glow when in proximity to a mage and so does lyrium, so by doing this they remove the mage from the picture because they can't have mages using blood magic. However the result is still the same. The phylacteries do the same purpose and are still blood magic.

Given the similarity of the Grey Warden's Joining and the Reaver's practice of drinking magically prepared dragon blood, I often wonder if the Wardens learned of the joining from some early Reavers.  The similarities are rather striking.

Templars and Spirit Warriors may in fact be related, but I'm not sure.  One thing Templars would never do, knowingly, is consort with Fade spirits.

[jamesp81]

Finnish Dragon wrote...

Porenferser wrote...

Yes.
And they say that there are only 6 corrupt templars in all DA (and don't argue with the nameless ones please. If I'd count them, the mages would be even more outnumbered).

I don´t know how you define corrupted templars but my list of 6 corrupted templars known by names in the current DA universe is following:

Knight-Commander Harrith (collaboration and protecting the Mages´ Collective, the renegade mages)
Meredith
Ser Karras, overzealous and ruthless hunter of mages
Ser Otto Alrik, the Mage Solution
Ser Varnell, Sister Petrice´s (former) bodyguard and co-conspirator
Wilmod for being possessed by a demon

Just in DAII, there are at least 13 evil mages before you will fight against Orsino. These mages are Decimus, Danzig, Evelina, Grace, Hadriana, Heborah de Soliere, Huon, Idunna, Innley of Starkhaven, Jake the Black, Olivia, Quentin and Tarohne. I define them evil because they are willing to hurt other people, many of them attack you on sight and many of them are willing to use undead and/or demons to promote their agenda.  

Frankly, you can add Cullen to that list.  In DAO he suggests killing everyone in the Harrowing chamber regardless of being an abomination or not, a suggestion born of his anger.  I initially gave him a pass because he was clearly traumatized.  However, in DA2 he further informs us that mages aren't people like the rest of us.

The only reason that sanctimonius bastard lives is because BW didn't give me a murder knife option for him.  His only redeeming quality is that he's not as ****ed up as Meredith, but that doesn't really say a lot.

Modifié par jamesp81, 11 octobre 2011 - 02:05 .