420 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

I have been reading through the lore and forming my own opinions about templar and spirit warrior abilities.

Think about it, a templar's abilities are almost exactly the same as what a mage who practices the school of spirit does. Only to a lesser degree. The templar abilities are nowhere near as powerful. Sure they stun the mage, but my Amell Warden didn't fear enemy mages at all because he was practically killing them in one spell (mana clash) which does the exact same as Holy Smite.

Alistair said it takes a disciplined mind to use those abilities, but those abilities are pretty much the same as the school of spirit. The templars are using magic, period. The Chantry can tip-toe around that fact as much as they like, but they are.

And Spirit Warriors are almost exactly like Arcane Warriors. They both end up partially in the fade. I saw Spirit Warriors flirting with Fade Spirits for similar abilities that mages have almost the same as mages using their mana to channel their strength and actually draw closer to the fade as they master the power.

Not as good a comparison between school of spirit and templars...but we have enough in-game lore to show that even regular people can use magic in a limited form, not just mages. And I'm sure non-mage Spirit Warriors will also attract demons because of proximity to the Fade.

I define them evil because they are willing to hurt other people, many of them attack you on sight and many of them are willing to use undead and/or demons to promote their agenda.

So does that mean my Warden is evil for using the spell Animate Dead from the School of Spirit and was NOT a blood mage (Shapeshifter, Arcane Warrior, and Keeper.)

[Heidenreich]

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

[Dave of Canada]

Heidenreich wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

They can't devastate an entire village, possibly against his or her will.
Or raise the dead.
Or mind control people.
Or whatever.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 11 octobre 2011 - 02:37 .

[TheJediSaint]

Heidenreich wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

A Sword? No.  More like a person with an assault rifle and a few grenades to boot.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

They can't devastate an entire village, possibly against his or her will.
Or raise the dead.
Or mind control people.
Or whatever.

So the solution is to oppress mages to the point where mages start a continental revolt against a system that the co-founder of Ferelden called slavery?

[Kaiser Shepard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

They can't devastate an entire village, possibly against his or her will.
Or raise the dead.
Or mind control people.
Or whatever.

So the solution is to oppress mages to the point where mages start a continental revolt against a system that the co-founder of Ferelden called slavery?

No, the solution is to euthanise or tranquilise the lot of them.

[LobselVith8]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the solution is to oppress mages to the point where mages start a continental revolt against a system that the co-founder of Ferelden called slavery?

No, the solution is to euthanise or tranquilise the lot of them.

That's precisely what Meredith did when she tried to execute hundreds of innocent people for an act that Anders alone committed, and look what resulted: a mage rebellion across Thedas.

[DKJaigen]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

They can't devastate an entire village, possibly against his or her will.
Or raise the dead.
Or mind control people.
Or whatever.

So the solution is to oppress mages to the point where mages start a continental revolt against a system that the co-founder of Ferelden called slavery?

No, the solution is to euthanise or tranquilise the lot of them.

And who is going to save thedas from the qunari or the tevinter imperium?

[Kaiser Shepard]

DKJaigen wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

and so is any other person with anger managment issues and a sword.

They can't devastate an entire village, possibly against his or her will.
Or raise the dead.
Or mind control people.
Or whatever.

So the solution is to oppress mages to the point where mages start a continental revolt against a system that the co-founder of Ferelden called slavery?

No, the solution is to euthanise or tranquilise the lot of them.

And who is going to save thedas from the qunari or the tevinter imperium?

Andraste, who else?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templars... obviously.. From Tevinter anyway... The Qunari are superior, even with the Thedosian mages, so that is not even an issue..

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars... obviously.. From Tevinter anyway... The Qunari are superior, even with the Thedosian mages, so that is not even an issue..

Not according to Genitivi's codex about the New Exalted Marches, where he references the Circle mages as the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led forces. He even addresses them being better than the Qunari mages, who he states were treated as little more than animals.

"The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the Qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the Qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed."

[jamesp81]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templars... obviously.. From Tevinter anyway... The Qunari are superior, even with the Thedosian mages, so that is not even an issue..

Not according to Genitivi's codex about the New Exalted Marches, where he references the Circle mages as the "greatest advantage" of the Chantry led forces. He even addresses them being better than the Qunari mages, who he states were treated as little more than animals.

"The greatest advantage that the Chantry-led forces had against the Qunari was, in fact, the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor a great hatred for all things magical. They possessed mages, but these were little better than animals kept on leashes… and none of the Qunari mages possessed anywhere near the skill that the Circle’s mages had. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire and it proved effective indeed."

Interesting.  Qunari technology is only successfully opposed by magic.  Thedas had better start treating its mages better, or learn to build bigger guns or the Qunari are going to steam roll next time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is truly surprising how many times I must state that the Qunari mages have sicne that war been trained, and now offers a much larger danger than before, on par with the Circle amges, maybe even greater.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 octobre 2011 - 05:34 .

[dragonflight288]

The Qunari also believe that mages simply by talking to people can spread the taint of magic and demons, so they cut out the tongues of mages. Good luck having mages teach other mages how to properly do spells with cut out tongues.

Sten says this if you have him with you in Origins while talking to Gregoire before solving the problems there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Saarebas could talk to us, obviosuly Saarebas can talk. Some of them get their tongues cut out, for example if they use magic they weren't told to.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is truly surprising how many times I must state that the Qunari mages have sicne that war been trained, and now offers a much larger danger than before, on par with the Circle amges, maybe even greater.

Gameplay doesn't equal lore. We've no idea what the strength of the Qunari mages was back then. It could've been the same as the Arishok's forces. All we know is that they didn't like how their mages were... well... mages.

Hawke and company were overwhelmed by a sneak attack from a Saarebas. The key words being "sneak attack".

[Dave of Canada]

The Qunari mages ARE being trained. After they got defeated, they started to see how valuable mages are as a resource and have been training them since then.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Qunari mages ARE being trained. After they got defeated, they started to see how valuable mages are as a resource and have been training them since then.

proof? You can claim it, but I have seen nothing to suggest that the mages are being trained or are stronger than they were during the Exalted Marches against the Qunari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

It is truly surprising how many times I must state that the Qunari mages have sicne that war been trained, and now offers a much larger danger than before, on par with the Circle amges, maybe even greater.

Gameplay doesn't equal lore. We've no idea what the strength of the Qunari mages was back then. It could've been the same as the Arishok's forces. All we know is that they didn't like how their mages were... well... mages.

Hawke and company were overwhelmed by a sneak attack from a Saarebas. The key words being "sneak attack".

No. The keywords being "in an unprecedented display of sorcery". Read the codex, cause I am getting tired of having to repeat myself.

[cactusberry]

My sarcastic mage Hawke sided with the templars. In the end, both crazy leaders die. My mage hated Orsino personally, and she hates blood mages. Templars go too far in Kirkwall, yes, but I think the templars are the lesser evil.

[dragonflight288]

Okay. Let's say you had a mage cousin who came by and asked for some food and a place to sleep for one night then leave you in peace. This cousin has been whipped and starved by the templars. After said cousin leaves, the templars come by and say you are acting against Meredith and are sentenced to death without a trial, just right there in the street by the templar in command. Still a lesser evil?

[Ausstig]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Okay. Let's say you had a mage cousin who came by and asked for some food and a place to sleep for one night then leave you in peace. This cousin has been whipped and starved by the templars. After said cousin leaves, the templars come by and say you are acting against Meredith and are sentenced to death without a trial, just right there in the street by the templar in command. Still a lesser evil?

What about this; during the night the cousin possessed is by a daemon and then kills you and levels the town you live and then goes on a rampage. One person or twenty, lives of the many or the lives of a few?

[dragonflight288]

What about this; during the night the cousin possessed is by a daemon and then kills you and levels the town you live and then goes on a rampage. One person or twenty, lives of the many or the lives of a few?

Both sides have problems.

What I would personally actually would change based on what position I may or may not have had in Kirkwall. Were I the Knight-Commander, I would say the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the few. But I would also reign in the templars so they're not breaking Chantry or City law. Mage relatives wouldn't be put to death and Harrowed mages wouldn't be made tranquil.

If I knew Alrik was doing it, I would swiftly kick him out of the templars and let him deal with lyrium withdrawal.

Were I the First Enchanter, I would call out Meredith's obvious abuse of political power even more openly than Orsino did. I would go straight to the Grand Cleric and not only bring my case of templar abuses to her, but also point out her blatant abuse of political power by not allowing a Viscount, trying to take over the City Guard, etc etc. And I wouldn't care if Meredith had me executed as an example, someone needs to say it.

Fact ultimately is this, the templars blatant abuse of power is pushing mages to desperate acts, and we have very few mages who actually go bad by choice and not by circumstance. But the ones who do actually make it easier for templars to justify the Circle.

So yes, I do see the templar side. I even agree with them on several points. My personal issue with the templars is-

1.) How they recruit from zealots for the most part so most templars don't have much moral fiber and believe they act in the name of the Maker no matter what they do.
2.) Templars are not allowed to possess worldly power or land so as to keep them from being corrupted by the world outside of their duties. But that rule was absolutely NOT enforced in Kirkwall. Even when Hawke is getting off the boat in the very beginning, the City Guards outright state that Meredith is the power in Kirkwall and that Dumar doesn't get in her way.
3.) Chantry oversight. Grand Cleric Elthina had more than enough justification to send Meredith to Val Reyeoux. The Seekers are supposed to oversee the Templars (but considering how little I actually know about them, they likely have other duties I don't know about) that was never acted upon.

[WillPF363]

Based on the mages in Dragon Age II, as much as I don't like it, siding with the Templars probably is the right thing to do. There are what, two mages in the entire game that aren't blood mages or abominations? I think Bethany and the drunken Orlesian guy are the only mages (with roles of any significance) that don't turn to forbidden magic at some point. That being said, I've only sided with the Templars in one game, I just can't bring myself to side with them. I thoroughly enjoy killing Anders though.

[CrimsonZephyr]

WillPF363 wrote...

Based on the mages in Dragon Age II, as much as I don't like it, siding with the Templars probably is the right thing to do. There are what, two mages in the entire game that aren't blood mages or abominations? I think Bethany and the drunken Orlesian guy are the only mages (with roles of any significance) that don't turn to forbidden magic at some point. That being said, I've only sided with the Templars in one game, I just can't bring myself to side with them. I thoroughly enjoy killing Anders though.

That might have been the case if Orsino was involved with Anders' plot, or if the entire reason for that debacle was purely blood magic. Orsino and the rest of the mages were completely blindsided by what he did, blood mages or not, and Orsino strongly condemns it. Meredith could have accepted the terms of Orsino's surrender, but she did not. She could have executed Anders on the spot, but she did not. In fact, none of the mages with Orsino were actually considering armed rebellion until Meredith forced them into it. Orsino, in fact, was going to approach Elthina as a mediator. As for the "mob out for mage blood," this would not have been an issue had Meredith simply sequestered the mages in the Gallows, surrounded the compound, and rebuffed any of the rabble that tries to attack. One duty of the Templars, after all, is to protect mages. Instead, Meredith makes it seem like she is subservient to mob rule when she has never behaved so before, and uses that excuse to pursue her own agenda. The right thing to do would have been to kill Anders, then and there. Intent matters, and Meredith was annuling the Circle on false pretenses.