420 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

The Chantry and Templars deny people basic human rights for having a talent just because they "might" abuse it. Thats wrong.

Having a Circle of Magi to train mages to control and not misuse their talent is a good idea, but they should be allowed their freedom.

1. They should have parental consent instead of just ripping them from their homes. Or perhaps have smaller installations of the Circle in areas so the mages can live at home and go there like a school.

2. They should allow visitations between mages and family.

3. After a Mage passes their Harrowing they should be allowed to choose whether or not they want to stay in the Circle or go out and actually live their lives.

4. They shouldn't take away the children of Circle Mages like they did to Wynne either. Being a mage doesn't make you an incompetent parent.

[UNOSHI]

i understand both side. but Orison flipt the script. well anders did too. and i now understand why merredith when psycho on me.. remember bartand with the idol.. yep thats merredith as well.. cuz when one of the templers wanted to tranquil all the mages she was against it. it was the idol raw lyrium sword that drove her to insanity. the reason templers existed was becuz the 1st mages who damed the golden city to the blackland or something and became darkspawn are the reasons templer were created. but times changed and what templers really stood for is now just an excuse to imprison mages. to tranquil all mages or saying they use all blood magic is overrated. i sidded with the mages tho. cuz in this da the templers are pushing mages too losen their mind and be weaken so demons can take over and turn them to abominations. or driven them to blood magic.

sorry for typos lol.

[Laterali]

I usually sided with the mages, only to have it blow up in my face. Every time I helped them, they went and showed that they can't be trusted. They turned into blood mages, kidnapped my brother, tried to kill me after helping them, turned against their friends.... I mean, they want to prove the Templars are wrong, so they all turn to blood magic. Even the First Enchanter showed his true colors and turned to blood magic.

In the end it made it very hard to sympathize with them. I mean, by the end of the game there were only 2 mages that didn't turn to blood magic. Me, and Emile. I think it would have been much better if some of them hadn't turned so easily to what the Templars knew would happen if given the chance.

Even though I sided with the mages, it didn't sit right with me. Like I said, I was basically the only mage that didn't turn to blood magic.

Next runthrough I'll probably pick Templars to see how that ends.

[OmegaBlue0231]

I'm sure there are some people, but I'm not one of them.

[Kemor]

BrettF wrote...

How much freedom are we willing to give up for security? This seems to be the theme of DA2. I chose to support the mages over the authoritarian slavers (templars). Yes, with freedom comes the risk that some mages will abuse their power. However, declaring that nobody can have freedom because some people abuse it is insane.

In my opinion, you cannot support the templars and remain on the moral high ground. As soon as you violate the essential liberties of others through force you have become a tyrant.

Templars never seem to go against normal non mage citizens, on the contrary. In their view, everyone can have freedom, just not mages. There is the law for normal people and another law for mages.

It's like..I don't know...imagine on Earth we had a branch of ****** sapiens that evolved differently from the rest and were now able, at will, to go nuclear, killing everything in a 5 miles radius. Everything but for that and they'd just be normal folks, normal lives. Of course, living normal lives, they would be like you and me, pretty decent, sometimes angry, sometimes happy....

But what can YOU do if you're real angry...
Now what can THEY do...

Would you live next door? With your family?


Personally I don't think you can apply the law of "normal people" to people who just can go COMPLETELY destructive in a second. That's what mages are.
You can NEVER tell that one person will never go berserk, just as you can never be sure for yourself. You can be the most reasonable guy, then an accident....and you go nuts, but the impact is very small. With a mage, the impact is devastating...That's why to me they either need to be locked up forever, or killed at birth. And yea it sucks but since it's genetic apparently, in one or two generation, there won't be any problem anymore, though these years will be very, very bloody.

Modifié par Kemor, 14 mars 2011 - 01:34 .

[Edge2177]

Kill them all and let the gods sort them out.

[WhiteKnyght]

UNOSHI wrote...

the reason templers existed was becuz the 1st mages who damed the golden city to the blackland or something and became darkspawn are the reasons templer were created.

And how exactly can that be proven? 

The Chantry has no proof that mages were responsible except for Andraste's claim when she waged war against Tevinter. Since the Exalted March happened after the First Blight such a claim could have been fabricated to give people more reason to rebel.

As for Andraste being "The Maker's Bride", after playing DAII and hearing what Keeper Marethari said about Feynriel being a special type of mage called a Dreamer, who could enter the Fade without lyrium and manipulate it and the world, it makes me think Andraste was one too.

[RosaAquafire]

I don't know what I think.

My Hawke thought that siding with the Templar was morally right, compared to the alternative.

[Dave of Canada]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. They should have parental consent instead of just ripping them from their homes. Or perhaps have smaller installations of the Circle in areas so the mages can live at home and go there like a school.

Would you trust unsupervised children to not abuse their powers, especially when dealing with other children? How many times as a kid did you want something bad to happen to somebody, now imagine having the ability to do so.

Wouldn't want to see a kid with mood swings being unsupervised.

2. They should allow visitations between mages and family.

They already do. Bethany keeps in contact with Leandra if she's sent to the Circle and Finn in Witch Hunt has stuff that his family gave to him when they visited. They just can't leave the Circle (and in some cases, they can but they have to come back).

3. After a Mage passes their Harrowing they should be allowed to choose whether or not they want to stay in the Circle or go out and actually live their lives.

This is the only thing I agree with, though society would probably treat mages worse than they treat elves outside the alienage. Something bad happens around town, be it somebody gets sick or crops don't turn out well, and chances are it'll be blamed on the mage and the mage will be killed.

Chances are mages wouldn't be able to own a home because the house would be burned down (like the people of Ferelden do to elves who leave the alienage). At least the Circle protects mages from this intolerance.

4. They shouldn't take away the children of Circle Mages like they did to Wynne either. Being a mage doesn't make you an incompetent parent.

They still have to be raised, mage parents probably cannot give their children the life they can while their in the Circle. The child will probably be raised like a normal kid (under Chantry supervision) until it's magical talents manifest.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 mars 2011 - 01:38 .

[Violent Green]

BrettF wrote...

How much freedom are we willing to give up for security? This seems to be the theme of DA2. I chose to support the mages over the authoritarian slavers (templars). Yes, with freedom comes the risk that some mages will abuse their power. However, declaring that nobody can have freedom because some people abuse it is insane.

In my opinion, you cannot support the templars and remain on the moral high ground. As soon as you violate the essential liberties of others through force you have become a tyrant.

What about the freedom of innocent bystanders not to have their minds controlled, or their corpses mutilated and reanimated?  By giving freedom to one mage you endanger the lives of countless others.

[WhiteKnyght]

Dave of Canada wrote...

This is the only thing I agree with, though society would probably treat mages worse than they treat elves outside the alienage. Something bad happens around town, be it somebody gets sick or crops don't turn out well, and chances are it'll be blamed on the mage and the mage will be killed. Chances are mages wouldn't be able to own a home because the house would be burned down (like the people of Ferelden do to elves who leave the alienage). At least the Circle protects mages from this intolerance.

They still have to be raised, mage parents probably cannot give their children the life they can while their in the Circle. The child will probably be raised like a normal kid (under Chantry supervision) until it's magical talents manifest.

1. The Circle doesn't protect mages from intolerance. It locks them up against their will and forces them to live with bigots who spy on their every action and cant wait for the chance to kill one. Look at the Magi Origins ending when the Circle get's freed, the epilogue says nothing about them going out of control and another disaster happening. It does however say that Cullen turns into a serial killer with a taste for mages tho.

2. There are plenty of parents who cant always provide the best life for children. Does that mean they all deserve to have their children taken? Plenty of kids grow up with things like single parents who work multiple jobs to make ends meet. Living in the Circle and either studying or instructing students seems a lot more workable in a time schedule. And the Tranquil probably wouldn't mind babysitting when parents are busy.

[MadCat221]

It's a chicken-and-egg scenario...

Do mages chafe and go bad because the Templars have systematically abused them and deprived their rights over a series of centuries, or do Templars truly guard against a scourge?

There will always be bad mages, just like there will always be bad normal people. However, a great way to make an otherwise innocuous mage go bad is to treat him like something less than human (or elf... or whatever). They will resent it. Machiavelli may have said it's better to be feared than loved... but an oft-forgotten corollary to that is that you must avoid be hated. The Templars made that very mistake over the course of centuries, and now they've paid the price for it. The mages' formenting resentment over their maltreatment has festered over into hatred strong enough to overcome their fear, and the percieved threat that the Templars tried too hard to control is now out of control. They reap what they sow.

The Templars rip them away from families.

The Templars disallow them from having children of their own.

The Templars coop them up in "circles", of which Kirkwall's is a former slave prison.

The Templars lately will jab a hot branding iron of lyrium into the heads of dissenters, or anyone at random just to set an example, turning them into mindless simps devoid of any spark of life.

The Templars openly allow bigoted sadists to operate within their ranks.  Their zeal may be suited to hunting actual maleficars (not just runaway apostates, but true bad apples), but are ill-suited to just guarding the mages that behave.

Who wouldn't revolt at such maltreatment?

So please, tell me again how gross maltreatment that causes the very threat that the Templars say they guard against makes them "good".

Modifié par MadCat221, 14 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[Darth_Ravor]

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

you cant just kill all people of a certain group for the crimes of some. and how is annuling the circle different from killing all people within the military because they might hurt some. we should kill all the templars because they are a ticking timebomb and could destroy the circle at any moment!

[Vukodlak]

Kemor wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Orsino seemed more reasonable than Meredith, but even he cracked in the end.

Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

He and every mage in the circle are going to be slaughtered by the templars for no reason.

[Kemor]

Alistair4Ever wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Every mage is a walking time bomb waiting to go off.

you cant just kill all people of a certain group for the crimes of some. and how is annuling the circle different from killing all people within the military because they might hurt some. we should kill all the templars because they are a ticking timebomb and could destroy the circle at any moment!

As said..

a non mage going crazy is quite easy to handle by anyone (guards, etc)
a mage going crazy...good luck with that.


It's not about trying to prevent the "going crazy" part. That's pretty normal, it's "human" and as many said, you got good people and bad people everywhere. People having a bad day, etc.

It's that mages have innate powers that can cause utter destruction when they do and since there is no way to make sure they never go crazy (The Circle tried but that's a failure obviously, can even see it in DA:O), then...there you have it. Yes it's cruel, but it's just irresponsible to let people with that kind of power just walk around.

[WhiteKnyght]

mrsph wrote...

Normal people don't normally have the chance to turn into a monster that can level an entire village.

I feel bad for the mages. I hate stuff like like tranquils and all that jazz, but mages need to be controlled in some way.

I think thats exaggarating a bit. I've seen and fought plenty of abominations and I'm not that impressed.

If they were that powerful a couple of Templars wouldn't be able to handle a single mage who failed their Harrowing

[WhiteKnyght]

Accidental double post. Plz delete

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 14 mars 2011 - 02:08 .

[Kemor]

Vukodlak wrote...

Kemor wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Orsino seemed more reasonable than Meredith, but even he cracked in the end.

Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

He and every mage in the circle are going to be slaughtered by the templars for no reason.

So what? He finds that to be so illogical that he wants to correct the space-time continuum and give them an actual reason by going Abomination crazy AND hint that he knew all along about that psycho who sewed your mother up?

Aww, he's such a nice guy

Tell me again why they don't just teleport out of there like pretty much EVERY SINGLE mage in DA2 apparently can but you? Or why he doesn't just use "normal" magic?

[TJPags]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Normal people don't normally have the chance to turn into a monster that can level an entire village.

I feel bad for the mages. I hate stuff like like tranquils and all that jazz, but mages need to be controlled in some way.

I think thats exaggarating a bit. I've seen and fought plenty of abominations and I'm not that impressed.

If they were that powerful a couple of Templars wouldn't be able to handle a single mage who failed their Harrowing

Yup - City of Redcliffe handled one child abomination real well.

Not everyone is as able as our PC's, you know.  Our parties did, after all, go slashing our way through the entire game, killing armies of enemies left and right.  Most of the populace didn't.

[TheCreeper]

Templars in Kirkwall Abused their power, a lot. Tranquilizing is not something you do to poltical dissents, Even The Templar Order Dictates that is only used if a person who should not for whatever reason go through the Harrowing. The Fact that the kirkwall templars used it on mages who had done nothing wrong means that if I am playing based on my personal morals I can never even consider siding with the Templars.

Modifié par TheCreeper, 14 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[Kemor]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Accidental double post. Plz delete

Well, you deleted but in my country, it's illegal to have bombs and firearms, you are put in jail if you do.

You can't put a mage's pointy hat in jail and hope the problem goes away though

[MadCat221]

Kemor wrote...


It's that mages have innate powers that can cause utter destruction when they do and since there is no way to make sure they never go crazy (The Circle tried but that's a failure obviously, can even see it in DA:O), then...there you have it. Yes it's cruel, but it's just irresponsible to let people with that kind of power just walk around.

The Circle "failed" because they assumed that going crazy and destroying everything is a default state for mages.  As I said before, the Templars reaped what they have sown.  They went from the extreme debauchery of the Tevinter mage-lords, to the extreme of being so consumed by paranoia and fear towards mages that they're treated like pariahs.  The opposite of extreme is not the other extreme.

Mages do need to be taught responsibility.  That's a given, due to their nature.  But I cannot find any pity for the templars for their maltreatment of those who are supposed to be their charges.  None.

Modifié par MadCat221, 14 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[TheJist]

Vukodlak wrote...

Kemor wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Orsino seemed more reasonable than Meredith, but even he cracked in the end.

Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

He and every mage in the circle are going to be slaughtered by the templars for no reason.

Yeah no not with hawke there we already see that he or she was more then capable of taking out the templars without the aid of any other mages but orsino was like "derp blood magic" and proceeded to make hawke's job that much harder combat wise and to justify.