420 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Kemor wrote...

Vukodlak wrote...

Kemor wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Orsino seemed more reasonable than Meredith, but even he cracked in the end.

Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

He and every mage in the circle are going to be slaughtered by the templars for no reason.

So what? He finds that to be so illogical that he wants to correct the space-time continuum and give them an actual reason by going Abomination crazy AND hint that he knew all along about that psycho who sewed your mother up?

Aww, he's such a nice guy

Tell me again why they don't just teleport out of there like pretty much EVERY SINGLE mage in DA2 apparently can but you? Or why he doesn't just use "normal" magic?

Well from what that looked like it seemed as though Orsino had been dabbling before. But still his actions were only done out of desperation.

Mages are at a natural disadvantage to Templars and a giant Flesh Golem doesn't use magic

I'm not about to side with the Templars who are slaughtering people for a crime they had nothing to do with and that I helped cause.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 14 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Kemor]

MadCat221 wrote...

The Circle "failed" because they assumed that going crazy and destroying everything is a default state for mages.  As I said before, the Templars reaped what they have sown.  They went from the extreme debauchery of the Tevinter mage-lords, to the extreme of being so consumed by paranoia and fear towards mages that they're treated like pariahs.  The opposite of extreme is not the other extreme.

Putting Meredith relic-fused zealotry aside, didn't the mages (especially Prosino) reaction in that last part of DA2 proved the Templars EXACTLY right? Didn't the crazy stuff in the Tower in DA:O proved the extreme danger of magic? Or the stuff in Redcliff?

You cannot compromise, argue or discuss with something that nobody can control all the time. Either you ignore it and let the various mages live freely and face the insanely destructive consequences (I mean, some would most likely go completely nut and go right back to the Tevinter days) or you can take care of it. And since there is nothing differencing a cool mage from a potentially crazy destructive mage but after the fact...well..there you have it.

[TheCreeper]

Kirkwall may be crawling with blood mages (which personally I blame on the desperation that many mages felt caused by the extremeness of the Templars) but the normal mages in the circle and beyond do not deserve to be killed based on the actions of one Apostate Mage (Damnit Anders!) Countries and groups with out templars may have a little diffculty with abominations but they don't come close to collapsing from it, and as Long as Mages don't seize control of the goverment ala Tevinter Imperium I don't what's the problem with mages going mostly free.

[Kemor]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Well from what that looked like it seemed as though Orsino had been dabbling before. But still his actions were only done out of desperation.

Kinda proves my point there.
A mage is desperate: Giant nearly unkillable Flesh demon that goes on rampage killing everyone in sight.
A dude is desperate: Well, he'll get drunk, then maybe kill a couple people...and that's pretty much it.

Dudes WILL get desperate, they already do get desperate. Happens all the time, it can be handled.
Mages WILL get desperate, good luck if you don't have an overpowered hero around at that time.

I'm not about to side with the Templars who are slaughtering people for a crime they had nothing to do with and that I helped cause.

It's not about siding with Templars, it's about taking care of the greatest threat first.
Templars never went against innocent non mage people.
Mages just can't control themselves in the long run when something goes bad.

And I'm always for the little guy.

[TheCreeper]

Kemor wrote...

MadCat221 wrote...

The Circle "failed" because they assumed that going crazy and destroying everything is a default state for mages.  As I said before, the Templars reaped what they have sown.  They went from the extreme debauchery of the Tevinter mage-lords, to the extreme of being so consumed by paranoia and fear towards mages that they're treated like pariahs.  The opposite of extreme is not the other extreme.

Putting Meredith relic-fused zealotry aside, didn't the mages (especially Prosino) reaction in that last part of DA2 proved the Templars EXACTLY right? Didn't the crazy stuff in the Tower in DA:O proved the extreme danger of magic? Or the stuff in Redcliff?

No, Redcliff showed the dangers of improper training. The LAst part of DA2 was desperate people desperate measures, NONE of that would have happened if the Templars had been remotely just at any time in the past decade. What happen in the ending was ten years of abuse bitting the Templars (and hawke as a side effect) in the butt.

[WhiteKnyght]

Kemor wrote...

Templars never went against innocent non mage people.

Not true. Templars have been known to kill people for harboring Apostates and IIRC a previous Viscount was murdered for wanting to remove the Templars from Kirkwall.

Also if a mage will always go bad, how come the Magi Warden didn't turn into an Abomination to beat the Archdemon? Or to beat the Mother, or any of the other insanely powerful enemies he conquers like High Dragons, Flemeth, Harvesters, etc?

[Darth_Ravor]

i agree mages should be controlled, but not with an iron fist! any bloodmage should be put down but not all are blood mages! i think the circle should exist but be more lenient. taking away someon's humanity because of something they might become is just a horrifying thought. i execute anders because what he did was so horrible but i defend the mages because 90% DONT use blood magic and the ones that do are forced to do so by the templars. sigh. what happened to the old anders who said breaking away from the chantry completely was madness...

[WhiteKnyght]

Blood Magic isn't that bad. Morrigan's ritual saves yours and Alistair/Loghain's life in the end of Origins does it not?

Plus the Chantry isn't one to talk. Use of phylacteries is a form of Blood Magic itself.

[TheCreeper]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Blood Magic isn't that bad. Morrigan's ritual saves yours and Alistair/Loghain's life in the end of Origins does it not?

Plus the Chantry isn't one to talk. Use of phylacteries is a form of Blood Magic itself.

Blood Magic is okay  as long as you don't over do it.The Problem is that most people learn it from demons and consorting with demons is recipe for Bad things.

[Kemor]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Not true. Templars have been known to kill people for harboring Apostates and IIRC a previous Viscount was murdered for wanting to remove the Templars from Kirkwall.

"Harboring Apostates"..."Innocent". Dude?
As for the previous Viscount, no idea on his story so can't comment. Maybe he was a mage?

Also if a mage will always go bad, how come the Magi Warden didn't turn into an Abomination to beat the Archdemon? Or to beat the Mother, or any of the other insanely powerful enemies he conquers like High Dragons, Flemeth, Harvesters, etc?

How come you can't summon abominations as a Blood mage? How come you can cast inivisbility? Or teleport? Or transform into a flesh demonthing? Don't try to apply logic where there can be none

[TheCreeper]

Kemor wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Not true. Templars have been known to kill people for harboring Apostates and IIRC a previous Viscount was murdered for wanting to remove the Templars from Kirkwall.

"Harboring Apostates"..."Innocent". Dude?
As for the previous Viscount, no idea on his story so can't comment. Maybe he was a mage?

How does Harboring Apostates  automatically equal Not Innocent? Some of those people could have been just trying to protect their families from the Nightmare that is the Kirkwall Circle (frankly I am amazed bethany isn't tranquilized considering how hardline they are)

[WhiteKnyght]

Kemor wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Not true. Templars have been known to kill people for harboring Apostates and IIRC a previous Viscount was murdered for wanting to remove the Templars from Kirkwall.

"Harboring Apostates"..."Innocent". Dude?
As for the previous Viscount, no idea on his story so can't comment. Maybe he was a mage?

Helping a fried or family member is hardly a crime that merits the death penalty. The governments need to put the Chantry in their place and make it clear that they don't make the law.

And the Viscount was killed for trying to remove them. Even the current viscount was afraid to ****** off Meredith.

Kemor wrote...

Also if a mage will always go bad, how come the Magi Warden didn't turn into an Abomination to beat the Archdemon? Or to beat the Mother, or any of the other insanely powerful enemies he conquers like High Dragons, Flemeth, Harvesters, etc?

How come you can't summon abominations as a Blood mage? How come you can cast inivisbility? Or teleport? Or transform into a flesh demonthing? Don't try to apply logic where there can be none

Your comment about all mages not being able to control themselves didn't exclude the Warden. The Amell/Surana warden is as much of a mage as any other, and can even be a blood mage, and he doesn't become some vile abomination.

My point stands.

[Kemor]

TheCreeper wrote...

How does Harboring Apostates  automatically equal Not Innocent? Some of those people could have been just trying to protect their families from the Nightmare that is the Kirkwall Circle (frankly I am amazed bethany isn't tranquilized considering how hardline they are)

Because it's the law?
And because it's for your own protection? Kinda like that elf wished she did when her husband came back to see her? Or Cricket and his brother?

As for Bethany, she stopped being my sister the second she justified going peacefully into the Circle. I mean...For HOURS the entire point is to get money and fame so that SHE is safe, then you came back the winner and she happilly goes into the Circle?
I knew I had to kill her at some point, she was clearly possessed by a moron demon

[WhiteKnyght]

Better to go in willingly than to be forced, no? The Circle does have the advantage of being a large repository of magical information and Bethany was showing signs of curiosity like having Aveline ask around about it.

Also its better than Carver becoming a Templar when he is supposed to be protecting his Apostate brother/sister.

[TheCreeper]

Kemor wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

How does Harboring Apostates  automatically equal Not Innocent? Some of those people could have been just trying to protect their families from the Nightmare that is the Kirkwall Circle (frankly I am amazed bethany isn't tranquilized considering how hardline they are)

Because it's the law?
And because it's for your own protection? Kinda like that elf wished she did when her husband came back to see her? Or Cricket and his brother?

As for Bethany, she stopped being my sister the second she justified going peacefully into the Circle. I mean...For HOURS the entire point is to get money and fame so that SHE is safe, then you came back the winner and she happilly goes into the Circle?
I knew I had to kill her at some point, she was clearly possessed by a moron demon

Bethany was trying to make the most of bad situation, ****ing and complaining would get her nowhere with the Templars.

[MadCat221]

Kemor wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

How does Harboring Apostates  automatically equal Not Innocent? Some of those people could have been just trying to protect their families from the Nightmare that is the Kirkwall Circle (frankly I am amazed bethany isn't tranquilized considering how hardline they are)

Because it's the law?
And because it's for your own protection? Kinda like that elf wished she did when her husband came back to see her? Or Cricket and his brother?

As for Bethany, she stopped being my sister the second she justified going peacefully into the Circle. I mean...For HOURS the entire point is to get money and fame so that SHE is safe, then you came back the winner and she happilly goes into the Circle?
I knew I had to kill her at some point, she was clearly possessed by a moron demon

She goes peacefully to the Circle because she got found out, and if she goes without a fuss, the Templars don't drop the hammer on the rest of you.  Cullen said that himself.    She's doing it to protect her family.

And since she isn't a runaway from the Circle, she's a first-timer.  She gets harrowed and everything and becomes a proper Circle mage.  Unfortunately, it's a Circle where you can be Tranquilized on a whim.

"....on a whim".   Sounds like the kind of motivation for death and destruction that the Templars accuse the mages of.

Families harbor apostate mage family members because of the conditions the Templars made in the Circles.  It's an unjust law.

Again, back to "They reap what they sow."  Still feeling no care for the Templars' plight by endgame time.

Modifié par MadCat221, 14 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Kemor]

TheCreeper wrote...

Kemor wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

How does Harboring Apostates  automatically equal Not Innocent? Some of those people could have been just trying to protect their families from the Nightmare that is the Kirkwall Circle (frankly I am amazed bethany isn't tranquilized considering how hardline they are)

Because it's the law?
And because it's for your own protection? Kinda like that elf wished she did when her husband came back to see her? Or Cricket and his brother?

As for Bethany, she stopped being my sister the second she justified going peacefully into the Circle. I mean...For HOURS the entire point is to get money and fame so that SHE is safe, then you came back the winner and she happilly goes into the Circle?
I knew I had to kill her at some point, she was clearly possessed by a moron demon

Bethany was trying to make the most of bad situation, ****ing and complaining would get her nowhere with the Templars.

But killing them would though. I mean that's how we've solved our family problem until the moron demon possessed her. Hawke went into the frikkin Deep Roads for her sake (oh, and died multiple times to that insane crazy rock golem thing)...

Modifié par Kemor, 14 mars 2011 - 03:07 .

[Kemor]

mrsph wrote...

Killing templars?

Yeah, that would work out well.

Hehe, never said I liked Templars overall, I usually dislike zealous people. It's just that between the two, they are less of a risk compared to mages.

All said and done though, I actually could kill tons of Templars AND could kill the sister in the end. That was so perfect!

[MadCat221]

I chalk it up to Gameplay/Story segregation.

[MrMonstah]

If you think about it:

Through out the game, the Templars are mostly only following the Crazy Meredith's orders, where as the Mages are mostly going nuts on their own accord (untill last scenes when they are backed into a corner).

Based on the above and Anders' actions, I was more than happy to side with Templars - and even though I was an Apostate mage, they still made me Viscount HAPPY DAYS

[BrettF]

Kemor wrote...

Templars never seem to go against normal non mage citizens, on the contrary. In their view, everyone can have freedom, just not mages. There is the law for normal people and another law for mages.

It's like..I don't know...imagine on Earth we had a branch of ****** sapiens that evolved differently from the rest and were now able, at will, to go nuclear, killing everything in a 5 miles radius. Everything but for that and they'd just be normal folks, normal lives. Of course, living normal lives, they would be like you and me, pretty decent, sometimes angry, sometimes happy....

But what can YOU do if you're real angry...
Now what can THEY do...

Would you live next door? With your family?


Personally I don't think you can apply the law of "normal people" to people who just can go COMPLETELY destructive in a second. That's what mages are.
You can NEVER tell that one person will never go berserk, just as you can never be sure for yourself. You can be the most reasonable guy, then an accident....and you go nuts, but the impact is very small. With a mage, the impact is devastating...That's why to me they either need to be locked up forever, or killed at birth. And yea it sucks but since it's genetic apparently, in one or two generation, there won't be any problem anymore, though these years will be very, very bloody.

You can apply this logic to real world scenarios.  By your logic firearms should all be banned.  Imagine that one person does not have a gun and other people do.  When a person who owns a gun gets angry they can simply massacre everyone around them, while a person without a gun cannot.

What do you propose, that all weapons should be banned?  And those who will not surrender their firearms should all be killed at birth? 

That's absurd.  Other citizens can be trained in templar ways to defend themselves against magic or law enforcement agencies could hire good mages to use magic to defend others.

[BrettF]

Violent Green wrote...

What about the freedom of innocent bystanders not to have their minds controlled, or their corpses mutilated and reanimated?  By giving freedom to one mage you endanger the lives of countless others.

Those freedoms will of course be protected by law enforcement when they are infringed upon.  You are advocating a system of "guilty before proven innocent."  If you make this assumption then freedom cannot be granted unto anyone because with freedom comes the possibility of abusing that freedom.

Again we can use your logic in real world scenarios.  Why should anyone have freedom if anyone can snap and endanger the lives of others? What about my freedom from being murdered? Anyone can snap so nothing short of a total police state with a complete lack of freedom can ensure that will never happen.

[Phex]

I thought siding with the mages would be the right thing to do (plus Anders kind of influenced me in my decision) but really, after doing all those quests to slay idiot mages who think they can control blood magic and make deals with demons and some nutjob decapitating my mother for some sick zombie wife of his, I really don't know. It's really hard to try and justify something like that. Of course you shouldn't blame the whole group for the actions of few, but you can say that about templars as well. Some templars want to work together with mages and not subjugate them.

I think this is the first time in a BioWare game where I'm set with a decision that makes all the sense and then experience something so radical along the way that I end up thinking I made the wrong decision at the end of the game.

Modifié par Sefferz, 14 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[EmperorZorn]

In DA2 every single mage seems to turn into a demon,
at least as much as there were Hurlocks in DA:O.
Its a bit ridiculous.

Also, in this game I didnt want to take either side as none of them seemed reasonable to me.
In the end I went with Anders' idea of blowing everything up.