420 réponses à ce sujet

[Phex]

Can you actually not side with either and, uh, blow everything up? Because I think that's exactly what I'd like to do on my next playthrough.

[Kohaku]

EmperorZorn wrote...

In DA2 every single mage seems to turn into a demon,
at least as much as there were Hurlocks in DA:O.
Its a bit ridiculous.

Also, in this game I didnt want to take either side as none of them seemed reasonable to me.
In the end I went with Anders' idea of blowing everything up.

I was going to put something like this in my signature.

Anders: "Uh... I didn't do it."
Hawke: "But a blood mage did!"

I thought blood magic was a rare special butterfly. Apparently everyone, their mother and their dog practice it.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 14 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Red Templar]

I sided with the Templars, and I feel like the outcome I got was the best choice for everybody. I killed Anders for his terrorism, and purged the blood mages and their sympathizers from the circle... but overruled Meredith to spare as many innocent mages as possible (Bethany included) and killed her to restore conscience and sanity to the templars and allow Kirkwall to return to the rule of law as normally as possible. Plenty of folks are sure to side with the mages based on underdog morality and (misplaced?) idealism, but I think that siding with the templars, but opposing Meredith's excess, is the "right" choice. For all that Meredith was crazy, she wasn't completely deluded. Orsino's depraved associations are far worse than Meredith's tyranny. Better to purge the elements that caused the system to fail and thereby restore the rule of law and normality than to gamble everything and everyone in a revolution inspired by terrorism and fought with blood magic.

[Estelle019230]

 There's no way in hell I'm siding with the templars at the end.  The mages have my sympathy; I mean, seriously.  From the very beginning, they've been persecuted for something they don't necessarily have any control over.  They don't choose to be mages, and they don't choose to be targeted by demons.  Sure, some do and end up turning into abominations, but a majority of the mages are good people who only wanted to be treated as fairly as everyone else.  The templars just seem evil to me, so yeah.  I couldn't care less what happens to Meredith.  I hated that woman as soon as I laid eyes on her.

[Red Templar]

Estelle019230 wrote...

 There's no way in hell I'm siding with the templars at the end.  The mages have my sympathy; I mean, seriously.  From the very beginning, they've been persecuted for something they don't necessarily have any control over.  They don't choose to be mages, and they don't choose to be targeted by demons.  Sure, some do and end up turning into abominations, but a majority of the mages are good people who only wanted to be treated as fairly as everyone else.

Talking about the mages of Kirkwall though, it seems like blood mages make up the majority, not the minority. And Orsino... that eloquent, reasonable guy who Anders thinks is an apologist and who seems to represent the more moderate mages of Kirkwall... that dude was pen palls with an insane blood mage who stalked the city for years, murdering women and chopping them up into the Bride of Frankenstine. The most respectable mage in the city, the guy leading the actions and policies of Kirkwall's mages, protected this serial killer and traded notes with him. Dislike Meredith and the templars all you like... but there was something very, very wrong with the mages of Kirkwall way before she invoked the Right of Annulment.

I would much sooner side with an overzealous police chief than a guy who sponsors Doctor Mengela.

[Thiefy]

the only real problem i have with siding with the templars is you get put in the position where you have to kill your sister, or kill yourself, and thus the circle isn't really "annulled" if you dont follow through with that.

[Red Templar]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

the only real problem i have with siding with the templars is you get put in the position where you have to kill your sister, or kill yourself, and thus the circle isn't really "annulled" if you dont follow through with that.

Not really. In my playthough, I spared mages who fled Orsino's madness, by overruling Meredith to her face with Cullen's support, and then likewise spared Bethany, and still finished the game with the loyalty of the templars. So it seems like siding with the templars allows for somewhat more moderation than siding with the mages.

[Takeva_]

I played a mage and I realize that I hate all other mages. Especially blood mages. And I now really hate Anders<_<. But I sided with the mages because Orsino seemed more reasonable. Meredith wanted to kill all of them because Anders<_< is a possessed idiot. I wanted to romance him my second playthrough but I'm sticking with Fenris:wub:. But then I get attacked by the very mages I'm trying to help >.> Like where are all the good mages like my Hawke.

But I will still probably wind up helping the mages my next playthrough because I loved the fact that Cullen came over to my side to help the mages even though he hates them XDD
 ...and Carver stopped being a jerk.
Bioware you know what I want for DA3 don't you? <3

Modifié par Takeva_, 14 mars 2011 - 02:45 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Sided with the Templars even though I was pro-mage the entire game, everybody I ever helped on the mage side had to prove themselves blood mages and after what Anders did I couldn't just sit there and let it happen. I didn't want to Annul the circle but it was the only choice that ever had a chance to keep order in Kirkwall, though I would've probably asked for Meredith to stand down.

Ironically, I was on the exact opposite. Pro-Templar throughout, last minute switch at the end.

With a male warrior Warden who was more than a little Templar-sympathetic, he tried and tried to support the Templar 'moderates' and moderate them, but when it came down to it... that Hawke put family first, and would fight the world rather than fight his sister. And his girlfriend, who's a rather sweet blood mage. The city, and the world, wasn't as important to him as his personal connections.

A rough, but sentimental, guy at heart.

[Thiefy]

Red Templar wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

the only real problem i have with siding with the templars is you get put in the position where you have to kill your sister, or kill yourself, and thus the circle isn't really "annulled" if you dont follow through with that.

Not really. In my playthough, I spared mages who fled Orsino's madness, by overruling Meredith to her face with Cullen's support, and then likewise spared Bethany, and still finished the game with the loyalty of the templars. So it seems like siding with the templars allows for somewhat more moderation than siding with the mages.

i meant from a role playing standpoint. they are going to kill *every* mage, meaning either your sister, or you, respectively.

[RazorrX]

The problem with the mages is they were being vastly mistreated in kirkwall, resulting in more and more of them turning to dark arts to win freedom. It is fully understandable perspective, and one I TRIED over and over again to explain to the templars. You dehumanize them long enough, mistreat them long enough, and you will have created your fears.

The templars FEAR that all mages will go bat**** crazy, embrace dark magic and nuke the world. Then they mistreat them horribly (even propose to tranquil all mages) and point when they do snap as reason for the mistreatment.
When you first arrive in Kirkwall you learn that the Kirkwall Circle is under very harsh rule. Why a family with an apostate as a child would STAY there is beyond me (Thanks for insisting mom). As time progresses you find that the circle is out of control, draconian enforcement is being enacted, radical treatment of mages is the norm (kill them all, tranquil them all, etc.) The high cleric is trying to negotiate peace between the two but it seems the knight marshal is not under her authority.

To add to this, the first enchanter, while seeming like a normal and likeable guy, is actually one of the reasons the circle virtually lost near the end. The Knight Marshal is insane, templars realize this and actively try to over throw her (yet the game has you kill them rather than help them). The more draconian the templars get (yep good old Cullen is there preaching how mages (ALL mages) are dangerous and should never be treated like humans), the more the mages get desperate. More desperation led to more falling to forbidden magics to fight for freedom.
So in the end, there is no right choice. Both sides are lost, and I will not allow someone to kill innocents just because she can.
If I had my way there would never have been a problem. I would have killed Anders WAY earlier in the game for being an abomination (in fact, I would have killed him the MOMENT I found out what he was), I would have killed the first enchanter for his correspondence with the serial killer, etc. There would not have been a huge issue at the end. And Cullen would have died the day he came to take my sister to the circle.

[rma2110]

Sefferz wrote...

Can you actually not side with either and, uh, blow everything up? Because I think that's exactly what I'd like to do on my next playthrough.

Same here. I wanted sail away on Isabella's ship. Siding with either faction feels wrong.

[Hellosanta]

Templar FTW! because you can be a viscount if you support the templars 8D!

[Dean_the_Young]

BrettF wrote...
You can apply this logic to real world scenarios.  By your logic firearms should all be banned.  Imagine that one person does not have a gun and other people do.  When a person who owns a gun gets angry they can simply massacre everyone around them, while a person without a gun cannot.

Two problems with that analogy, though.

First, anyone can weild a gun. Not everyone can use magic.

Second, we do ban weapons with disproportionate power. No one can (legally) buy an assault rifle or machine gun or grenade launcher or tank or five hundred pound ordinance or mortors or-

You get the idea. What people can get, while lethal, is not catastrophic on any level near what mages can do.

What do you propose, that all weapons should be banned?

That is precisely what some countries do, and to varying levels of success. Gun crime is very, very low in Europe.

  And those who will not surrender their firearms should all be killed at birth? 

The proper analogy would be 'locked away.'

Which is what we do to people who hold illegal items, be they weapons or drugs.

That's absurd.  Other citizens can be trained in templar ways to defend themselves against magic or law enforcement agencies could hire good mages to use magic to defend others.

And that's even more absurd. Civilians are civilians because they aren't able, in a position to, or available for regimented, continuous military training and organization.

If your solution to allow mage freedom is a universal military state where everyone is being trained to kill mages, you've neither improved overall freedom or made it much safer for the mages.

[DuskWanderer]

At first I sided with the mages, thinking Orsino was reasonable and level-headed, and Meredith was just insane. After all, Anders nuked the chantry, it was clear he acted alone, and he wasn't even a Circle member, yet she just annulls them.

And then, you see all the blood magic they were using, Orsino included. Blood Magic may not be intently evil (Merrill being the prime example), but it was clear Orsino was hiding behind his position to practice and encourage forbidden arts, and that Meredith may have been overzealous, but she had a really valid point.

And plus, the lyrium sword she had at the end could, while not justify, explain her insanity (sort of like Branka, but slightly more forgiving to Meredith), there's nothing that would justify Orsino's insanity.

[Treadwyck]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

the only real problem i have with siding with the templars is you get put in the position where you have to kill your sister, or kill yourself, and thus the circle isn't really "annulled" if you dont follow through with that.

Not really. In my playthough, I spared mages who fled Orsino's madness, by overruling Meredith to her face with Cullen's support, and then likewise spared Bethany, and still finished the game with the loyalty of the templars. So it seems like siding with the templars allows for somewhat more moderation than siding with the mages.

i meant from a role playing standpoint. they are going to kill *every* mage, meaning either your sister, or you, respectively.

Not even true from an RP standpoint. Cullen questions Meredith's ability to call for the Rite of Anullment and defends the mages who surrender, though it seems clear he'd follow orders if it wasn't for the Champion insisting they are spared. With Meredith a charred corpse, the Rite of Anullment is effectively revoked (not that it matters much, there aren't many mages left to kill at that point). Cullen and the other templars didn't seem too eager to kill the mages that surrendered; they were willing to defy Meredith on Cullen and the Champion's command. 

[NarayanNL]

Blood magic not being evil.
Merril's dabbling in blood magic caused her keeper to become possesed with a demon and killed,as well as her complete clan massacred on the spot because they wanted to avenge their keeper. I don't think it gets more evil as that. And I warned her throughout the game not to be involved with it.

I actually wished they made choosing the blood magic tree for the player character also have unintended consequences like you see happen to all the other mages who dabble in blood magic could be awesome if you think about it

[RazorrX]

Actually, in the case of Merril, it was an indirect cause from blood magic that led to her clans death.

Merril did not CAUSE the keeper to be possessed. The keeper was hoping you could persuade Merril to give up on her quest. When it became obvious that you could not stop her, the keeper out of love for Merril decided to save her 'daughter' the only way she could. SHE became the prison for the demon, and when you kill her (as she hints you must before she even reveals it), you free Merril from the chance of possession.

The clan goes nutso and irrationally blames Merril for what the keeper did and thus they all die.

That had very little to do with blood magic. It was more from the demonology aspect of it.

[fathomless33]

I think its pretty funny how so many people defend the mages and what they do. I mean if someone is bullying me or threatening me, that does not make it ok to pull a gun and blow their head off.

If you argue that the mages are correct, then that would be the same as saying that those kids in columbine (sp?) were correct. They were oppressed by their peers on a daily basis, and reached for a gun (blood magic, demonic possession) to solve their problem, were they justified?

Maybe i am just alone in this, but even if i was subjected to terrible behavior i would still hold myself accountable and not freak out. I would not set off a nuclear bomb in a church full of civilians to cause a revolution.

I wanted to side with the mages, and even did at the end as well due to family ties with bethany, however this playthrough i will not be doing the same thing. I believe everyone deserves the same freedom, however some things are just too much.

A dog doesnt have a choice to become rabid, doesnt mean they deserve to live and play with the kids.

[Vaemer-Riit]

DuskWanderer wrote...
 
At first I sided with the mages, thinking Orsino was reasonable and level-headed, and Meredith was just insane.  After all, Anders nuked the chantry, it was clear he acted alone, and he wasn't even a Circle member, yet she just annulls them.

And then, you see all the blood magic they were using, Orsino included. Blood Magic may not be intently evil (Merrill being the prime example), but it was clear Orsino was hiding behind his position to practice and  encourage forbidden arts, and that Meredith may have been overzealous, but she had a really valid point.

Not quite, while he had some information about blood magic he specifically states that he buried the information because it was too dangerous. (This was while he is turning into the harvester)

DuskWanderer wrote...

And plus, the lyrium sword she had at the end could, while not justify, explain her insanity (sort of like Branka, but slightly more forgiving to Meredith), there's nothing that would justify Orsino's insanity.

Being backed into a corner with no hope of escape is not a valid reason to snap? Hell you see this happen throughout the acts.

Act 1 had very few blood mages, and the templars where not to represive yet.

Act 2 more blood mages but still not many, templars are starting to become more repressive (rumors of the Tranquil Solution ect).

Act 3 blood mages fighting in the streets, templars are sending death squads to mages families and creating tranquil for voicing an opposing opinion.

Even the mission where you work for Meridith to retrieve the 3 mages. One was an elf who snapped because of the ****ty ways society treated elves, the 2nd was afraid of being made tranquil (the templars at this point where doing this for voicing an opposing opinion) and the 3rd mage just wanted to meet someone outside the circle(so he wouldn't die a virgin).

Modifié par Vaemer-Riit, 14 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Joshd21]

I went through the playthrough twice, and I just can't seem to side with the templars. I mean the cute elf is a mage, your sister was a mage. I can't think of helping the people to destroy all of that, just seems to evil. They were the ones that pushed the mages harder, and very few of them.

As I recall DA Orgins, not all mages are bad but the bad ones make the group look really bad.

[Augustei]

Meredith may have been insane, but she was right that the people would demand blood for what happened to the chantry, if you side with the mages.. The city will tear itself apart until more templars come along and kill all the mages anyway to restore order. Also Leliana points out an Exalted March is being considered to be declared, siding with the mages makes itr a definate. So its either.. Side with the mages kill all the templars and the mages and people of Kirkwall will die anyway.. Or side with the Templars, kill some mages, gain the Templars respect. They make you Viscount. You form alliances with your neighbours Ferelden and Nevarra and put an end to this exalted march business

Besides, neither choice actually decides a victor.. The fight between Mage and Templar begins anyway regardless of who you choose.. And if Hawke has the respect of the templars and they would apparently listen to him.. And said templars have rebelled against the chantry as well. Then dont you think mage freedom would be far easier to obtain if you had their enemies listening to you?

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 14 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[Joshd21]

Wait if you side with the Templars, you are chosen to rule the city?

[Treadwyck]

RazorrX wrote...

Actually, in the case of Merril, it was an indirect cause from blood magic that led to her clans death.

Merril did not CAUSE the keeper to be possessed. The keeper was hoping you could persuade Merril to give up on her quest. When it became obvious that you could not stop her, the keeper out of love for Merril decided to save her 'daughter' the only way she could. SHE became the prison for the demon, and when you kill her (as she hints you must before she even reveals it), you free Merril from the chance of possession.

The clan goes nutso and irrationally blames Merril for what the keeper did and thus they all die.

That had very little to do with blood magic. It was more from the demonology aspect of it.

Merrill's obsession with the Iluvian is definitely more at fault than blood magic, but blood magic did play it's part. 

Still, you don't have to fight her clan, there is the option in conversation (can't remember which) that allows you to leave, but Merill can never come back. 

I wouldn't call them blaming Merrill irrational though; her obsession - however well-intentioned - ultimately led to the Keeper's death. If she'd have just listened to reason the Keeper never would have made the decision she did to save Merrill (which seems a dereliction of her duty to the rest of her people).

Modifié par Treadwyck, 14 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Augustei]

Joshd21 wrote...

Wait if you side with the Templars, you are chosen to rule the city?

Yeah they make you Viscount