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[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Kemor wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Orsino seemed more reasonable than Meredith, but even he cracked in the end.

Meredith is under the relic' influence, what's Orsino's excuse again?

Desperation, Meredith is committing mass murder and nobody is willing to stop her, so Orsino has good reason to be angry and afraid. Orsino also ends up turning to blood magic only as a last resort when backed into a corner and witnessing the murder of innocent mages (although I wish he had attacked the templars not Hawke, storywise). Orsino was witnessing a holocaust can yo blame him for snapping?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Yes, part of her specific reasoning was to appease the public, which is a purely political move, but that doesn't mean siding with the Templars has you agreeing to everything she says.

Except she IS the Templars.

No, she is not. Even by Chantry standards, what she was doing was excessive, ever since Act 1 (being involved in politics).

And not only do we see active opposition against Meredith from within the Templars themselves (Thrask), we also see skepticism from within, from people like Cullen (in italic to emphasize. Cullen). And both use Templar and Chantry rethoric to explain their opposition. 

Cullen says that he is starting to doubt that Meredith and the Order are not one and the same anymore.

Orsino's actions from the beginning are simply to remove Meredith from power.  That is his long term goal.  Not free reign.  He doesn't even oppose the Templars, just Meredith.

Wasn't Meredith supposed to be the Templars?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Meredith is NOT the Templars. That's kind of obvious when Cullen and the rest question her almost the entire way and then completely abandon her. That's exactly the outcome I wanted. The Templars are fine; Meredith is the problem.

Challenging Meredith will result in a war that would likely extend past the city of Kirkwall.
Siding with her, despite knowing she's crazy, allows you to temper her insanity and minimize the damage she causes. And that's exactly what you do. You kill those mages who summon all the demons to block your path (and I don't remember seeing any "innocent" mages on that path). You get to spare some mages against Meredith's will, and in the end when Meredith shows she is undoubtedly corrupt and unreasonable you oust her. The city remains intact, the evil mages are stopped, the good mages (or a portion of them) are alive, and order is restored.

And meanwhile Orsino is harboring known blood mages and murderers in his circle because he's interested in their research... The mage circle is not a bunch of innocent daisies being stomped on by the templars. There are as many evil, douchebag mages like Huon or Leandra's killer as there are evil, douchebag Templars like Alrik.

[LobselVith8]

Speaking of Cullen, maybe be played a role in the Order of Templars breaking free from the Chantry, since the incident at Kirkwall seems to have inspired revolution for the Circles.

[TheRevanchist]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Meredith is NOT the Templars. That's kind of obvious when Cullen and the rest question her almost the entire way and then completely abandon her. That's exactly the outcome I wanted. The Templars are fine; Meredith is the problem.

Challenging Meredith will result in a war that would likely extend past the city of Kirkwall.
Siding with her, despite knowing she's crazy, allows you to temper her insanity and minimize the damage she causes. And that's exactly what you do. You kill those mages who summon all the demons to block your path (and I don't remember seeing any "innocent" mages on that path). You get to spare some mages against Meredith's will, and in the end when Meredith shows she is undoubtedly corrupt and unreasonable you oust her. The city remains intact, the evil mages are stopped, the good mages (or a portion of them) are alive, and order is restored.

And meanwhile Orsino is harboring known blood mages and murderers in his circle because he's interested in their research... The mage circle is not a bunch of innocent daisies being stomped on by the templars. There are as many evil, douchebag mages like Huon or Leandra's killer as there are evil, douchebag Templars like Alrik.

This was exactly my mind-set when I decided to side with the Templars...at first I was uneasy about making that choice...because when Orsino declared that Circle was innocent regarding the death of the Grand Claric and was blameless...he was kind of right...so sideing with the Templars because of that was wrong...but after I did I foud that sideing with them was the right move...almost the entire circle was full of demons and blood magic...and the city streets were littered with blood mages and demons when I was on my way to the Gallows. Cullen of all people realized Meredith is wrong...and its a Templars duty to not just protect the people from mages...but also to protect mages from the people. He and the entire order defys her and she is forced to stand alone.

I also think that people who think "they were desperate" just automaticly makes it OK to turn to evil magic and dangerous things is out of their mind...desperation does not make somthing acceptable.

[KAAurious]

The difference between Meredith and Orsino:

Orsino: Willing uses blood magic, even when the Champion sides with him, possibly involved with the man who killed the Champions mother. Is not good.

Meredith: Zealous and winds up suffering from the corruption of the evil primeval lyrium idol thing.

Meredith didn't have a choice in the matter of her corruption,Orsino did. It's a reverse of what Anders says regarding templars, "Mages can't choose to not be mages. Each templar chooses to become what they are." Meredith did not choose to become what she became. Orsino did.

[Pileyourbodies]

Except the circle wasn't innocent Orsino himself worked with blood mages! they might not have been in collusion with anders but with other rogue mages they were. Circle wall circle was lost. theres been an annulment every 50 years or so. so once every other generation the circles must be culled clearly kirkwall was overdue.

[TheRevanchist]

Like the Grand Claric said...I feel sorrow for the Mages I truly do...in DA2 they it brought upon themselves by trying to justify using evil magic with "desperation" as if the word is some magic get out of jail free card.

[jab19782010]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

In fact, was there a single mage in the entire game who wasn't a stark raving mad power hungry blood mage? Bethany. That's it. Bethany is litterally the only non lunatic power-seeking Blood craving mage in the entire game. One might argue Alain and Feyndrial as well, but since Feyndrial is in Tevinter, I'd say it's a given he's going to learn blood magic, and Alain just sort of vanishes during the fight with the Templars, so who knows about that How in the world did I think I was helping the oppressed? It's like thinking freeing a bunch of psychotic killers from a supermax prison is helping the oppressed. True only in the semantics, while being utterly rediculous in meaning.

Yeah and Bethany was raised outside of the circle by her parents one being an apostate mage. Call me crazy, but if I was a young child ripped or forced away from my parents and sent to the circle living under the scrutiny of the templars I would probably resort to drastic measures for freedom as well. I don't believe that turning to blood magic is right in order to gain freedom, but I believe in seeing Bethany and knowing some about Malcom Hawke shows that mages can live on their own without becoming a threat to society.

Just thought I would add my two cents...but I hated having to make the choice in the game period. Both sides have flaws but need to find some sort of medium ground.

[AlexXIV]

Well For DA2 it seems to be better to side with the templars since the mages die and lose anyway. You don't have any different result other than if the mages are fond of you or the templars. Even though it may be that for DA3 if you want to side with the mages there you are better off siding with the mages in DA2.

[Statulos]

I think the game makes a clear point that this is Kirkwall. Yes, the consequences are worldwide, but the situation between both factions is very specific from Kirkwall.

That being said, I tried to think about the lesser of two evils but what I found is that both are quite tied.

[mjgoodsman]

I will side with the Templars because it is true to my avatar's character. I am playing a tyrannical despot named Muammar Gaddafi.

It's good to be the King

[Darkcyde]

Vandicus wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Orsino seemed more reasonable than Meredith, but even he cracked in the end.



Not if you learned he was behind the Kirkwall Killer http://social.biowar...ticons/wink.png



Well, he did have a rationale for it - he didn't want to give Meredith any more ammunition than she already has

Bull! he gave him materials to further his insane research that had a hand in hawke's mother's murder. I suspected he was the mage who sent that note with the books. Orsino had no control over his circle he reminded me of harrowmont to weak to side with. I hated Merridith but didn't want to risk having to kill Carver plus i was banking on the fact that that Merridith would turn on me solidifying Hawke as the only viable candidate to lead later on so I'd be in position to salvage the situation later and prove again that not all mages are bad or weak willed they can be heroes.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Except the circle wasn't innocent Orsino himself worked with blood mages! they might not have been in collusion with anders but with other rogue mages they were. Circle wall circle was lost. theres been an annulment every 50 years or so. so once every other generation the circles must be culled clearly kirkwall was overdue.

How does one man's possible actions condemn hundreds or thousands of people? The men, women, and children of the Circle were innocent. They were born mages, but the actions of the First Enchanter have no bearing on their innocence. Knight-Commander Meredith wants to mercilessly murder them because they're mages. How is that moral? How is that even reasonable when she's facing the man who was responsible for destroying the Chantry? She doesn't try to arrest Anders, she wants to senselessly murder all the mages now. Meredith's actions are vile, and if murdering people for no reason is the same for the other Rights of Anulment that took place over the past 700 years, I can see why mages want to be emancipated from the Chantry and it's Order of Templars.

Regardless of what one man did, it doesn't make all of them guilty by default. No matter what the First Enchanter may or may not have known (and he does call the research by Quentin "evil" so it's difficult to know whether or not he was actually privy to Quentin's actions as the serial killer at the time he was killing women), his actions don't condemn all of the mages in Kirkwall.

Personally, I found the Order of Templars to be on the wrong side of the debate. Mages shouldn't be enslaved to the Chantry. The decision my Hawke faced was between the subjugation of mages for another thousand years, or a chance at freedom provided by Anders. I sided with the mages who wanted to be freed from their oppressors.

kylecouch wrote...

Like the Grand Claric said...I feel sorrow for the Mages I truly do...in DA2 they it brought upon themselves by trying to justify using evil magic with "desperation" as if the word is some magic get out of jail free card.

You mean mages did absolutely nothing to warrant the death sentence Meredith signed for them. There's no justification for Merdith to murder innocent men, women, and children when Anders is stand right in front of her.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[draken-heart]

 at first, i thought calling the rite of anullment on the circle, which had NOTHING to do with the Grand cleric's death was uncalled for. still think its abit harsh, but right call now that i played through it for once.

also i heard that if bethany is in the circle, merideth will try to kill her if you side with the templars and you can save her, what exactly is her reaction in the circle fighting against her own sibling?

Modifié par draken-heart, 16 mars 2011 - 08:31 .

[Brejin]

I played a mage who was sympathetic to other mages who hadn't turned to blood magic.  In the end I had to side with the templars because all of the mages in Kirkwall were screwed because of what Anders did.  By siding with the Templars I could do what I could to find the truely innocent mages and spare them.  Being a prominent mage and political figure in the end would be a good way to get the templars and the mages back on the right track.  I was prepared for Meredith to turn on me and was completely expecting it.

[Darkcyde]

my thinking was similar to bejin's: i played as a mage thinking it was the most logical choice for hawke having magic running in both his bloodlines. tried to help both sides during the game saving those I could and talking meredith down when possible as champion in an attempt to fill the role that the viscount played in kirkwall. My dealings with orsino let me know he was weak and as much of a sheep as the blood mages he failed to police himself and had no firm grip on his circle which gave meredith all the ammo she needed. mage or templar hawke was in between a rock and a hard place so i decided to go with the option that allowed me to take the lowest personal loss meaning not having to fight my last immediate remaining family member (carver). and setting my biggest enemy merridth up to one take the blame if things went further south and slit her own throat politically by either refusing to show any mercy to the mages that surrendered and/or by betraying the champion while he fought by her side. believing that the 1st one of them to show there fangs against the other would lose all political currency and the support of the templars the cities #1 power leaving the other to lead unopposed. so yes i risked sacrificing a weak circle of magi in order to show kirkwall and thedas once again that a mage can be a leader a hero and a CHAMPION!

[ShrinkingFish]

Both sides of the conflict are wrong. There is no good nor evil. Just extremists pushing one another into deeper and deeper extremes until the boiling pot erupts and everyone burns. The only position that is morally justifiable is the position of the moderate who tries to keep peace. However, as is seen throughout many of the quests, the extremists on either side quickly consume all moderates and thusly prevent peace from being achieved.

I tried to play a "good" Hawke at the beginning, trying to keep the peace and hold the city together. But the extremists of either side kept forcing my hand. Eventually I became fed up and picked a side, choosing to back my favorite character in this game: Vengeance.

I took Flemeth's advice to heart. As I stood on the precipice of the abyss, I leapt, and plunged the whole world into chaos along with me.

It was quite satisfying.

Modifié par ShrinkingFish, 18 mars 2011 - 01:03 .

[Darth_Ravor]

Nothing is true, Everything is permited.

[Darth_Ravor]

oh wait, wrong game!

[Jaldaen]

All I can say is the enigma of Kirkwall made it easier to choose Templars (after choosing the mages my first time around)...

If I'd had the choice... I'd have torn the city down brick by brick, salted the earth, and placed "Do Not Enter on Pain of Annulment" signs around it.

The poor mages in Kirkwall never had a chance... not with what lies beneath that city. The Tevinter Imperium broke something there that shouldn't have been broken. And no one should live there (especially mages!)... it's a timebomb waiting to go off... or perhaps it already has...

Modifié par Jaldaen, 18 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[Minaach]

I personally found myself siding with the mages because of my sister...I didn't want to kill Bethany. So I rolled a mage so that an Ogre would kill her and it would taken out of the equation, I will side with the templars. A mage siding with the templars...sounds odd.

[Pileyourbodies]

You can side with the templars and still keep bethany.

[Minaach]

O i know, but I just didn't want to betray her...I would feel terrible

[candyrehab]

Well, Can't help but feel that mages in this game are full of it, saying they're oppose usage of blood magic..... and in the end they are all friggin bloodmage lol.