420 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

thats1evildude wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

There is no justification for what the Chantry does to mages.

*koff koff abominations koff koff*

Meaning what?  Kill the abominations when they appear, by all means.  Don't lock every mage in the country up in a cage on the fear that they might go all demon-worshipping on you.

It really boils down to whether you want your country to be free or be safe.  You can't have both.

[thats1evildude]

If every mage who turned into an abomination then locked themselves in a room, I could see your point. But that's not what abominations do. They go on killing sprees. They sunder the Veil and bring over their fellow demons from the Fade. They destroy whole communities. And it may not even be the choice of the mage; he/she may have been forcibly possessed.

Killing abominations when they appear is all fine in theory, but what about all the collateral damage they commit? The Circle exists, in part, to prevent harm occuring to the general populace; if a mage gets possessed while in the Circle, then the threat can be quickly contained.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:00 .

[Drasynd]

Only good templar is a DEAD templar.

[Chun Hei]

[Unlike people in our world who have to choose to be instruments of destruction the mages in DA are capable of becoming dangerous without even trying. Wynne told a story about how she unintentially set a boy on fire as a child and whether the player likes the way mages were portrayed in DA2 or not the game shows that even a mature mage is capable of unintentially becoming a rampaging abomination under when threatened.

You could argue that the boy was a bully but that does not mean he deserved to be set on fire. And if you say a mage child has the right to do magical violence unto "normal" people then you have to admit that the "normal" people's desire to see mages suffer from magical transgressions is also understandable.

The Templars and the pirates who scared the adult mages into becoming abominations may deserve being attacked by the monsters they helped create but an abomination continues to be a threat to any innocent people they may encounter. Even the sympathetic mage Hawke is attacked.

Throw in the fact that other societies like the Chasind, the Tevinter Imperium, the Dalish and the non-Qunari Rivani have mages assuming the roles of leadership not based on leadership qualifications but on the mere fact that they have magic powers it is easy to see why "normal" people may have find the Chantry alternative attractive.

[TheJediSaint]

Remember that the Chantry Templars and the Circles were not created in a vacuum, but as a reaction to the atrocities committed by the Magisters of the ancient Tevinter Imperium. According to the lore, they would sacrifice slaves by the thousands to fuel their blood magic. There was also this little thing called the Blight that came about as a result of their actions.

I do believe the Circle as it exists is wrong, but I also think that there needs to be a framework in place for preventing bad mages from using their power to exploit people who cannot protect themselves.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:08 .

[jamesp81]

thats1evildude wrote...

If every mage who turned into an abomination then locked themselves in a room, I could see your point. But that's not what abominations do. They go on killing sprees. They sunder the Veil and bring over their fellow demons from the Fade. They destroy whole communities. And it may not even be the choice of the mage; he/she may have been forcibly possessed.

Killing abominations when they appear is all fine in theory, but what about all the collateral damage they commit? The Circle exists, in part, to prevent harm occuring to the general populace; if a mage gets possessed while in the Circle, then the threat can be quickly contained.

The Circle doesn't seem to be particularly effective at killing abominations.  It's also based on the disgusting idea that if some bystander has to die, well, they're just mages.

The 'collateral damage' they do is unfortunate, but it happens whether the circle exists or not when a mage becomes an abomination.  That collateral damage is quite simply unavoidable without instituting an oppresive police state, and even then, it doesn't work all that well.

Like I said, you can have a meager, inadequate measure of safety or you can have freedom.  You can't have both.

It doesn't matter that mages have unusual power.  They're people entitled to the same human rights as everyone else.  Every other consideration is secondary to that, unless you like living in a police state.

Chains or Freedom.  There is no middle ground, you will have one or the other.

[TastesLikeTNT]

thats1evildude wrote...

If every mage who turned into an abomination then locked themselves in a room, I could see your point. But that's not what abominations do. They go on killing sprees. They sunder the Veil and bring over their fellow demons from the Fade. They destroy whole communities. And it may not even be the choice of the mage; he/she may have been forcibly possessed.

Killing abominations when they appear is all fine in theory, but what about all the collateral damage they commit? The Circle exists, in part, to prevent harm occuring to the general populace; if a mage gets possessed while in the Circle, then the threat can be quickly contained.

Indeed.

There bare no other people in Thedas capable of causing as much damage single-handedly as mages, even unwittingly. And anyone who might get caught in harm's way have virtually no way of defending themselves against abominations or mages on a rampage. Push come to shove, I am a mage sympathizer, but I know the tradegy of suddenly losing dozens upon dozens of the people in my community. The threat mages pose can't just be shrugged off.

[Chun Hei]

I would like to see a Rivani seer in an upcoming DA game or expansion. According to the codex the Rivani mages who are not under the control of the Qun actually seek to become abominations and the Chantry scholar who observed this seemed to indicated that they do not [all] become dangerous killers. Add to this the fact that according to Morrigan Flemeth started out as an abomination before she became "something more" after a couple hundred years so there is another aspect of abominations we have yet to see.

[thats1evildude]

It works pretty well. The only thing that prevented a demonic invasion of Ferelden was the fact that the Circle Tower was isolated.

And many templars would argue that the greater good and the protection of Thedas overrules the rights of mages, especially when the only example of a society that advocates for the freedom of mages is the most oppressive state in Thedas (ie. the Tevinter Imperium).

[Dave of Canada]

They'd deserve the same rights as everyone else if they were the same as everyone else, that isn't the case. Therefore, they need to be treated differently.

They actually get treated better than the average Thedosian, being given free food / shelter / education and are capable of leaving the Circle if they recieved permission.

Mages going abomination is a constant threat and the Circles exist to limit the damage, when the entire Ferelden Circle went crazy... did anybody notice? I don't mean the Templar involved to deal with the damage, I don't mean the Mages themselves but the citizens of Ferelden.

No, they didn't. The Ferelden Circle situation was contained thanks to the Circles, outside society lived on without any difference except for possibly the families of the deceased mages and templar.

Chains or Freedom. There is no middle ground, you will have one or the other.

It's "safety or freedom".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:24 .

[Chun Hei]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Remember that the Chantry Templars and the Circles were not created in a vacuum, but as a reaction to the atrocities committed by the Magisters of the ancient Tevinter Imperium. According to the lore, they would sacrifice slaves by the thousands to fuel their blood magic. There was also this little thing called the Blight that came about as a result of their actions.

I do believe the Circle as it exists is wrong, but I also think that there needs to be a framework in place for preventing bad mages from using their power to exploit people who cannot protect themselves.

And the fact that Tevinter also committed genocide by destroying the Elven homeland of Arlathan. It is not difficult to see why the rest of the Dalish clan was offended by Merrill's use of blood magic. That would be the equivelant of an Native American survivor of Wounded Knee telling her tribe that she's decided to help her people by converting to the White man's religion.

[Wulfram]

Chun Hei wrote...

And the fact that Tevinter also committed genocide by destroying the Elven homeland of Arlathan. It is not difficult to see why the rest of the Dalish clan was offended by Merrill's use of blood magic. That would be the equivelant of an Native American survivor of Wounded Knee telling her tribe that she's decided to help her people by converting to the White man's religion.

You assume that blood magic is not part of Elvish tradition?

[thats1evildude]

Wulfram wrote...

You assume that blood magic is not part of Elvish tradition?

Given how Merrill was driven out of her clan for messing with blood magic and demons? Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:31 .

[jamesp81]

thats1evildude wrote...

It works pretty well. The only thing that prevented a demonic invasion of Ferelden was the fact that the Circle Tower was isolated.

And many templars would argue that the greater good and the protection of Thedas overrules the rights of mages, especially when the only example of a society that advocates for the freedom of mages is the most oppressive state in Thedas (ie. the Tevinter Imperium).

And those templars will die on the end of my sword, as they should.

Basic human rights are not legitimately "overruled" by anything.  When the attempt is made, killing every bastard trying to do it becomes justified self-defense.

Given Chantry policy on the circle, it is literally impossible to kill a templar without it being justified as self defense or as an assault on the agents of a tyrant.

"The Greater Good" is a favored phrase of many tyrants.  When you start hearing that it's usually best to be on your guard for what they really want.

I would also contend that the Qunari are equally as oppressive as the Tevinter Imperium.  The Tevinters don't even begin to have a monopoly on tyranny.

Modifié par jamesp81, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:36 .

[TheJediSaint]

Blood Magic is an easy route to power. Not every blood mage is evil, but I'm willing to bet that every evil mage is a blood mage.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:33 .

[jamesp81]

Dave of Canada wrote...

They'd deserve the same rights as everyone else if they were the same as everyone else, that isn't the case. Therefore, they need to be treated differently.

They actually get treated better than the average Thedosian, being given free food / shelter / education and are capable of leaving the Circle if they recieved permission.

Mages going abomination is a constant threat and the Circles exist to limit the damage, when the entire Ferelden Circle went crazy... did anybody notice? I don't mean the Templar involved to deal with the damage, I don't mean the Mages themselves but the citizens of Ferelden.

No, they didn't. The Ferelden Circle situation was contained thanks to the Circles, outside society lived on without any difference except for possibly the families of the deceased mages and templar.

Chains or Freedom. There is no middle ground, you will have one or the other.

It's "safety or freedom".

I'm quite familiar with the exact quote.  The chains come with the safety.  There is no avoiding it, and there is no compromise between the two any more than lions compromise with gazelles or water compromises with fire.

[Chun Hei]

Wulfram wrote...

Chun Hei wrote...

And the fact that Tevinter also committed genocide by destroying the Elven homeland of Arlathan. It is not difficult to see why the rest of the Dalish clan was offended by Merrill's use of blood magic. That would be the equivelant of an Native American survivor of Wounded Knee telling her tribe that she's decided to help her people by converting to the White man's religion.

You assume that blood magic is not part of Elvish tradition?

The Keeper Marathari talked of blood magic with disdain and Pol ran right into the arms of a rampaging monster to avoid contact with a blood mage so I assume that blood magic is only slightly less reviled by the Elves since they let her live in exile [with the option to return if she gave it up] rather than kill her out-right.

[Wulfram]

thats1evildude wrote...

Given how Merrill was driven out of her clan for messing with blood magic and demons? Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption.

Not really.  Current Dalish practice isn't the same as past Elvish tradition.  Marethari herself makes it clear that some parts of Elvish history she believes are better forgotten - while Merrill believes it's a Keeper's role to remember even the dangerous things.

IIRC Merrill doesn't know whether the Elves or the Tevinters summoned the Demon on Sundermount, which suggests that she at least believes blood magic may have been performed on both sides.

[thats1evildude]

jamesp81 wrote...

And those templars will die on the end of my sword, as they should.

You sound like Anders. I've seen where that type of extremism ends.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:39 .

[TheJediSaint]

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

[jamesp81]

thats1evildude wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

And those templars will die on the end of my sword, as they should.

You sound like Anders.

Anders was an idiot.

He should've set the bomb in Meredith's office instead:lol:

[Dave of Canada]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because as long as limitations exist, people will cry out that it's oppression and mages will feel like victims because they aren't allowed to be miserable like everybody else.

[jamesp81]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Why can't there be compromise? I think it's pretty clear that both extremes are unworkable. Absolute freedom leads to the Tevinter Imperium, while the overly oppressive circles lead mages attempting to rebel. Perhaps the the only solution is to find a middle ground.

Because as long as limitations exist, people will cry out that it's oppression and mages will feel like victims because they aren't allowed to be miserable like everybody else.

I think the trick is to loosen the screws enough to keep the feeling of oppression below a certain "critical mass" while at the same time providing the nessicary level of security so that the common people dont need to worry about dying to a rampaging abomination.  

I actually like the Chantry for the most part,  I think Andraste was a pretty rad chick.   But perhaps the responsiblity of policing mages should be left to secular authorities rather than a religous order.  Perhaps then Mages could be allowed  a certain level of particpation in the governement.  Say for example, the First Enchanter being considered the quivlaent to an Arl or similar noble?

[TheJediSaint]

jamesp81 wrote...


Because the only proper state of affairs is to let mages lead their lives, without interference, as anyone else would.  Anything short of that is criminality on someone else's part.  You don't negotiate with people who intend to deprave you of basic human dignity.  You stop them.

And what constitutes a deprvation of basic human dignity?  There are people who consider paying taxes to be a violation of the rights, after all.  

And if Mages are allowed to lead there own lives, what's to protect people like Leandra from Mages like Quentin?  Do the people who fall victim to the predation of rogue mages not deserve basic human dignity themselves?

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:54 .