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[ezrafetch]

No, I don't think "maging" is a word, but I can make up my own word, thank you very much.

Archmage: A Guide to Maging in Nightmare

I. Introduction: HIstory, Goals
II. Specializations, Skill Set
III. Stat Distribution
IV. Companions
V. General Strategy
VI. Cross-class Combos
VII. Gear [incomplete]
VIII. Extras
more as the guide is filled out

--------------------------------------

I. Introduction: History, Goals

This build started by trying to emulate the "Archmage" from Diablo II.  At least in the Diablo II world, the "Archmage" was a Sorceress who had skills in all three trees.  Prior to the introduction of skill synergies in Patch 1.09 (as far as I remember), it wasn't actually the worst path in the world.  Nova + Frozen Orb + Fire Wall could get you places, with a well-equipped mercenary at least.  Sure, your damage was lower than a two-tree who could dump points into masteries, but there was literally no enemy you didn't have the silver bullet for.

Of course, that's not how it works in DA2.  In the first Archmage builds, I tried to build around that approach with only meh results.  The fact of life is that mages simply don't have the DPS that the nukers in DAO had, so focus must be directed elsewhere.  The answer is in the Cross-class Combos (CCC).  With CCCs, your mage can begin to emulate the damage output of the nukers in DAO.  So the goal here is to create a build that maximizes DPS through CCC potential  As an ARCHMAGE, you're not supposed to really be wading into the thick of the battle, per sé, so don't constantly go run off like that or you'll end up like Bethany (ba dum tsch?).  If you want to play a Battlemage, look here for tips and tricks on that.

II. Specializations, Skill Set

For those purposes, the key specialization here is Blood Mage.  Paralyzing Hemorrhage is a particularly good skill (key CCC component) but moreover Blood Magic gives the mage a second pool of mana to work with.  Since we do not try to wade into battle, we will, in fact, be casting tons and tons of spells.  Mana will run out, so it's important to have a backup pool of mana besides chugging Lyrium Potions.

However, do note that you should decide whether or not you want to go offensive or defensive and choose that specialization FIRST (so choose Force Mage or Spirit Healer as your level 7 specialization) before Blood Mage, because you don't have the health pool to make Blood Magic worth working with prior to level 14.  Plus, Paralyzing Hemhorrage isn't unlockable until level 15.  You can go with Blood Mage as your first specialization on lower difficulties, though, as optimization is hardly required on those difficulties.

While this will be discussed in greater detail in section VI, it is important to at least introduce the CCCs that are worth working with on this mage: DISORIENTED and STAGGERED.  When inflicted, DISORIENTED enemies receive -50% defense while STAGGERED enemies receive -25% attack and -25% defense.  The real key, however, is that these effects can be applied quickly, often, and amongst the masses to maximize your CCC potential (BRITTLE isn't really worth the effort, as only Petrify + Dessicate and Winter's Grasp + Winter's Blast consistently do so).

Taking advantage of STAGGERED and DISORIENTED takes us to two trees: Primal and Spirit.  You have, at the base, FOUR spells to take advantage of STAGGERED and DISORIENTED effects:

Stonefist + Golem's Fist: DISORIENTED
Spirit Bolt + Spirit Strike: DISORIENTED
Hemorrhage + Paralyzing Hemorrhage: STAGGERED
Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction: STAGGERED

Throwing in some one-point wonders, at base your Archmage should look something like this:

Primal:
Stonefist + Golem's Fist
Petrify + Dessicate
Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction

Spirit:
Spirit Bolt + Spirit Strike
Walking Bomb + Corrosive Walking Bomb + Virulent Walking Bomb

Entropy:
Horror (1pt wonder, you can try getting this elsewhere if need be)

Creation:
Heal (1pt wonder)

Blood Mage:
Blood Magic + Bloodlust
Grave Robber + One Foot In
Hemorrhage + Paralyzing Hemorrhage
Blood Sacrifice

This is 20 skill points and 1 specialization spent, leaving you around level 16 given all the tomes and such.  You can find it layed out here (as you can tell, you may have to save points or simply get to a point where you can respec into what you want/need and level normally from there).  The next question is: what second spec?

I think this is where you can divide it up into the more Offensive-oriented Archmages and a more Defensive-oriented Archmages:

Offensive-oriented Archmages should take Force Mage to get another CCC via Fist of the Maker + Maker's Hammer.  They also get some crowd control options via Gravitic Ring and Pull of the Abyss.  In this tree you take:

Force Mage:
Fist of the Maker + Maker's Hammer
Unshakable
Telekinetic Burst
Pull of the Abyss
Gravitic Ring

Defensive-oriented Archmages should take Spirit Healer.  You have less offensive power, but you can heal and revive folks effectively, and Vitality is quite the boon if you see yourself spending a lot of time in Blood Magic (+Constitution and health regeneration can help offset health lost via Blood Magic).  This is also the option to take if you hate constantly toting around Anders as a whiny "I'm a mage, I'm oppressed!" healbot, allowing you to take the much more bodacious Merrill if that's your fancy.  In this tree you take:

Spirit Healer:
Healing Aura
Group Heal + Unity
Revival
Second Chance
Vitality

Either path takes you to 26 points, which puts you at level 22, which is pretty much endgame.  If you have extra points to spare, I'd suggest picking up Glyph of Paralysis + Glyph of Binding, upgrading Heal to Greater Heal or filling out the Entropy tree some.  You could also fill out Primal or Spirit trees to try to get to the Mastery skills in their trees.  Regardless, you shouldn't have a whole lot of points to work around with after this build is done.

Do note, however, that if you take Spirit Healer and you use Merrill, you may want to de-emphasize a tree (Spirit or Primal, up to you) to buff out your Creation tree to get Haste, Valiant Aura and the like, which will help everyone out, make CCCs easier to pull off and to execute.

III. Stat Distribution

So now that you have your skill set, we can look at the stat distribution.  Most guides determine stat distribution before, but with the passives granted it's probably more effective to look at them after.

Strength: [Base]
Dexterity: [Base]
Cunning: [Base]
Willpower: 31, enough for Champion's set
Constitution: enough for ~175 to ~250 life, after gear
Magic: the rest

Since you have Blood Magic as a "mana pool," you can leave Willpower to the point where you can wear your endgame gear.  Constitution should be enough so you feel comfortable casting in it, and make sure you include your bonuses from gear, and Vitality if you went the Spirit Healer route.  175 would probably be the minimum, especially for those who take Force Mage.  Your healing isn't as good, so you have to be able to maintain a respectable life total so you can run away if you get surrounded.  Spirit Healers should aim for 200 minimum, because they aren't immune to staggers, but they have nice healing powers to help remedy any damage taken.

IV. Companions

Unlike DAO/A where you could get away with all-archer and all-mage parties, DA2 has (for better or for worse, though I say for worse) made it absolutely necessary to maintain at least a semi-balanced party, especially for higher difficulties.  So yes, you will need some semblance of a tank.  And yes, you will need a secondary/support mage.  And yes, you will need a rogue to pick locks unless you enjoy the feeling of inadequacy when you can't open a chest.

So ideal companions include:

Tank
Aveline
Carver/Fenris

Support/Secondary Mage
Anders
Merrill (much less of a support mage, more of a secondary source of DPS)

Rogue
Varric
Sebastien

I personally would take Aveline, Anders/Merrill (depending on second spec), and Varric (seems like Anders and Varric are in everyone's parties, eh?).  Fenris can off-tank and has good DPS (also good for CCC, see later), Anders is a perfect support/secondary mage with a bit of a respec, and Varric is simply pro (by far the best character in the game, and dare I say he's cooler than Hawke? Maybe he's the real Champion of Kirkwall, with an actual sense of humor and all...).  I'm not an expert on tactics, but if you refer to Sabresandiego's über-ridiculously über-good Ultimate Vanguard guide you will be able to see pretty good tactics setups for at least Anders, Merrill, Varric, and Sebastien.  If someone comes up with some good good tank tactics before I come up with them, I'll put them into the guide with full credit given.

SAMPLE BUILDS (a reasonable start, by no means supremely definitive)----
Aveline
Anders
Fenris
Merrill (Merrill's build heavily depends on what yours looks like, because she can cover offensive capabilities if you're playing more defensively)
Varric (as you can tell, the Specialist Tree is...filler)

V. General Strategy

What to do when you actually go into a battle?  At least for yourself, it should be pretty easy.  Cast spells.  If you see a dude low on health, cast Heal.  If you find guys close to you, use Cone of Cold to slow enemies down, allowing you to reposition.  Cast more spells.  See a bunch of dead guys.  Move on.

But to be more detailed:

1. Look for rogues (rogues are THE WORST!).  If you see one, cast Petrify or Horror.  Get everyone to focus on them.  Rogues are the most troublesome, because they like to disappear and all that stupid stuff, and backstabs actually really hurt.
2. Look for mages.  They aren't actually that big of a problem since they don't Fireball-snipe like they used to in DAO.  They usually just cast Force Field (or whatever it is in DA2) and sit there and do nothing.  Watch out for Blood Mages, though, as they have the tendency to try to Hemorrhage-snipe you.
3. Then look towards mobs.  You can start tossing around some spells, but use your companions to get CCCs going, they'll speed up battle significantly.  Fog and Chaos will get DISORIENTED combos rolling (Virulent Walking Bomb is great for mobs), and STAGGERED via your warrior's Sunder/Shield Bash + Pummel/Cleave + Claymore will get those combos off the ground.  Dudes should be dead, but if they aren't just toss around some spells to clean up the mess.
4. If you need to heal a single target, obviously just cast Heal.  If you have Spirit Healer, work your magic.  If you have Anders as your healbot, let him take care of it.
5. If you're running low on mana, activate Blood Magic and continue to shoot spells at dudes until they die.
6. Ideally you don't have to get this far, but if you're still fighting, when you get under 30-40% health you can turn off Blood Magic.  Heal yourself via Spirit Healer skills if you have them or old school Heal (or have Anders do it if you have him), then go crazy again.
7. Have a party when all that's left are...ex-enemies.

As a note, playing as a mage will likely be very, very tactical pause-intensive, so be aware.  If you don't like pause-and-play, you, um, may want to consider another build or class.

VI. Cross-class Combos
Cross-class combos (CCC from here on out) are what can greatly increase your killing speed, and being able to set them up can actually save your butt.  They're not necessary but if you can pull them off battles move a lot faster and are therefore a lot safer.  If you rolled with the [1] setup above, you have these CCC options:

Petrify + Dessicate >>>>>> BRITTLE >>>>>> __________
__________ >>>>>> DISORIENTED >>>>>> Spirit Bolt + Spirit Strike
__________ >>>>>> DISORIENTED >>>>>> Stonefist + Golem's Fist
__________ >>>>>> STAGGERED >>>>>> Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction
__________ >>>>>> STAGGERED >>>>>> Hemorrhage + Paralyzing Hemorrhage
if you took Force Mage, you also get
__________ >>>>>> STAGGERED >>>>>> Fist of the Maker + Maker's Hammer

As you can see, the Archmage is quite good at setting up BRITTLE for others to take advantage of, while being good at exploiting both DISORIENT and STAGGERED effects.  So the question is, what exploits BRITTLE and how can the party set up DISORIENT and STAGGERED?

Here's a full list of things that will take advantage of BRITTLE:
Bursting Arrow + Shattering Arrow [Archery]
Archer's Lance + Punishing Lance [Archery]
Mighty Blow + Shattering Blow [Two-Handed]
Scythe + Reaper [Two-Handed]

And now a list of stuff that sets up DISORIENT:
Pinning Shot + Disorienting Shot [Archery]
Fatiguing Fog + Overpowering Fog [Sabotage]
Confusion + Chaos [Sabotage]

Last, a list of the stuff that sets up STAGGER:
Sunder [Two-Handed]
Shield Bash + Pummel [Weapon and Shield]
Cleave + Claymore [Vanguard]

Just looking at all of these, it becomes rather obvious that a Rogue and a Two-Handed Warrior ensures the ability to set up and exploit CCCs with devastating effect.  You'll definitely want some combo of Varric/Sebastien and Aveline/Fenris/Carver.  Each of them has pretty good STAGGERED/DISORIENTED options.  Fenris may have slightly STAGGERED opportunities given Sunder than Aveline, but he's basically emo.  Varric has a better personality than Sebastien, but otherwise pick who you want (personally I think Varric's Marksman spec is better than Sebastien's, plus the personality).  Pick from those based on who you dislike less...

So I guess by the end of this you can figure out that your party will be 3/4 locked, with:
Hawke
Varric/Sebastien
Aveline/Fenris/Carver

Then your last companion.  Can be either Anders, Merrill, or Sebastien.  If you went with Force Mage, you're pretty much locked into toting around Anders since you need someone to be able to consistently heal.  If you picked up Spirit Healer, you can pick up Merrill or Sebastien to execute more CCCs, Merrill being an extra "finisher" and Sebastien being a better "setup" man.  You could run others, but they'd be suboptimal, especially if you have Fenris going berserk, because he WILL clean out your teammates without abandon if they get too close.  Happened to me a few times.

So yeah, in general, the more ranged, the better, makes for safer executing of CCCs.

VII. Gear [incomplete]

I'm not far enough into the game to be able to spout out "here's X, Y, and Z, get on with it," but as far as I know for any mage the Champion's set is the best for your endgame.  If you know of good Act 1 and Act 2 stuff, post them and they'll be put into the guide.

VIII. Extras

There is actually a way to get around the skill point constraint.  It is, however, a definite glitch so take it as you will.  Take it or leave it.  Obviously you're not really playing the intended game if you do so, but I wanted to make you aware of it in case you want to, you know, not have to deal with waiting around to pick up tons of your skills.  All you have to do is save, use a Maker's Sigh, redistribute the points, reload that last save.  At least on X360, you'll have the aggregate of your pre-Maker's Sigh and post-Maker's Sigh skills and spells.  So in a sense it's a much cheaper spell Tome (helps if you're trying to cobble together the cash for the Deep Roads in A1), but in another sense it can break the game in two.  So use it to your taste.  If you like it legit, don't bother.  If Mage development is a little slow to you, you can speed it up.  Just a forewarning.

--------------------------------------

This is a set of incredibly long musings (a lot of theorycrafting), so advice is needed and welcome, hopefully this will become more of an open-source guide!
[and, of course, credit will be given where credit is due, if you really care for that sort of thing]

Thanks for your input, everyone.  Without feedback this guide would still be terrible.
-e.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 22 mars 2011 - 08:44 .

[atheelogos]

this is sure to be a good read : )

[ezrafetch]

Updated with a Cross-class Combos section. It became an even larger block of text. Yikes.

[Stardusk78]

It's called Scythe, not Reaper but I can see why you made the mistake...good guide though.

[naughty99]

This is excellent info, thanks for putting this together.

You might want to add Pinning Shot + Disorienting Shot to the list of ways to set up DISORIENTED targets.

[SuicidalBaby]

I don't understand why you would take spirit healer over force mage when it fits with the theme you've established. You have 2 mages, just have both get barrier and heal. It's not a stretch and force is 100x more useful than spirit healer.  Fist of the maker  works with combos.  Pull of the void is incredible cc.  Grav is pure lockdown.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 mars 2011 - 11:21 .

[ezrafetch]

Stardusk78 wrote...

It's called Scythe, not Reaper but I can see why you made the mistake...good guide though.

I list it as Reaper because the CCC bonuses only apply with the upgrade to Scythe.  So as to avoid confusion as to whether or not you need the upgrade for it, because you do.  But I see how it can throw people off.  I'll edit it in in a bit.

naughty99 wrote...

This is excellent info, thanks for putting this together.

You might want to add Pinning Shot + Disorienting Shot to the list of ways to set up DISORIENTED targets.

Thanks.  I thought I was missing another DISORIENT setup, I'll throw that in now.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I don't understand why you would take spirit healer over force mage when it fits with the theme you've established. You have 2 mages, just have both get barrier and heal. It's not a stretch and force is 100x more useful than spirit healer.  Fist of the maker  works with combos.  Pull of the void is incredible cc.  Grav is pure lockdown.

The idea was to be much less of CC and much more of an actual Archmage, i.e. throwing spell arounds and nuking things.  I personally find Force Mage to be lackluster.  Besides of Unshakable, you're not doing yourself any favors by investing in skills that accomplish little outside of support.  This mage definitely wants to set up and exploit CCCs, so the Force Mage tree doesn't actually contribute a lot in that regard.

I choose Spirit Healer because it provides party flexibility, you can probably run Sebastien without any problems since your Healing > Anders Healing (except for the cooldowns, but I think the better healing powers more than make up for that).  I'm cleaning up the Deep Roads so I'm not able to use Sebastien yet, but I should be able to try very soon.  Spirit Healer also synergizes well with the way Blood Mage is used in this build.  Blood Magic is an extra mana pool.  You will be casting a lot, so naturally you'll have to turn on Blood Magic.  Spirit Healer is an excellent way to recover health lost via Blood Magic.  And then once you finish healing, go back to Blood Magic if you need it.  Voilá, a self-sustaining system of death and destruction.  Force Mages don't have that ability to become a self-sustaining system.  If you want to constantly tote around Anders, go ahead, but Force Mage requires different tactics than what I advocate (what you're thinking of is probably a Battlemage, and there's a guide for that), and I don't like Anders much in this game.

Also, Vitality is key here.  The extra Constitution saves you a ton of stat points, which you can use to maintain reasonable spell power.

edit: Yes, Fist of the Maker CCCs with STAGGERED, but as you can see the only consistent source of STAGGERED is off of Sunder from your 2H Warrior, which I don't think occurs enough to make Fist of the Maker much of a use.

double edit: There is now a stat distribution section in the guide, didn't realize it wasn't there.  and not that I can currently try it, but Sebastien is starting to sound even better now since he can get that Decoy skill, which definitely would be a boon, and for all the threat it re-allocates could be about equivalent to an Anders heal spell.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 15 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[Stardusk78]

ezrafetch wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

It's called Scythe, not Reaper but I can see why you made the mistake...good guide though.

I list it as Reaper because the CCC bonuses only apply with the upgrade to Scythe.  So as to avoid confusion as to whether or not you need the upgrade for it, because you do.  But I see how it can throw people off.  I'll edit it in in a bit.

naughty99 wrote...

This is excellent info, thanks for putting this together.

You might want to add Pinning Shot + Disorienting Shot to the list of ways to set up DISORIENTED targets.

Thanks.  I thought I was missing another DISORIENT setup, I'll throw that in now.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I don't understand why you would take spirit healer over force mage when it fits with the theme you've established. You have 2 mages, just have both get barrier and heal. It's not a stretch and force is 100x more useful than spirit healer.  Fist of the maker  works with combos.  Pull of the void is incredible cc.  Grav is pure lockdown.

The idea was to be much less of CC and much more of an actual Archmage, i.e. throwing spell arounds and nuking things.  I personally find Force Mage to be lackluster.  Besides of Unshakable, you're not doing yourself any favors by investing in skills that accomplish little outside of support.  This mage definitely wants to set up and exploit CCCs, so the Force Mage tree doesn't actually contribute a lot in that regard.

I choose Spirit Healer because it provides party flexibility, you can probably run Sebastien without any problems since your Healing > Anders Healing (except for the cooldowns, but I think the better healing powers more than make up for that).  I'm cleaning up the Deep Roads so I'm not able to use Sebastien yet, but I should be able to try very soon.  Spirit Healer also synergizes well with the way Blood Mage is used in this build.  Blood Magic is an extra mana pool.  You will be casting a lot, so naturally you'll have to turn on Blood Magic.  Spirit Healer is an excellent way to recover health lost via Blood Magic.  And then once you finish healing, go back to Blood Magic if you need it.  Voilá, a self-sustaining system of death and destruction.  Force Mages don't have that ability to become a self-sustaining system.  If you want to constantly tote around Anders, go ahead, but Force Mage requires different tactics than what I advocate (what you're thinking of is probably a Battlemage, and there's a guide for that), and I don't like Anders much in this game.

Also, Vitality is key here.  The extra Constitution saves you a ton of stat points, which you can use to maintain reasonable spell power.

edit: Yes, Fist of the Maker CCCs with STAGGERED, but as you can see the only consistent source of STAGGERED is off of Sunder from your 2H Warrior, which I don't think occurs enough to make Fist of the Maker much of a use.

double edit: There is now a stat distribution section in the guide, didn't realize it wasn't there.

I am playing a support mage as Hawke (Spirit Healer) one one runthrough but I wanted to do an evilish blood mage one too...and I wanted to max out elemental...thing is, I have noticed, fire damage sucks; even with all the bonuses it does next to nothing and on nightmare required very careful positioning; is there any point in maxing out elemental?

[Stardusk78]

ezrafetch wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

It's called Scythe, not Reaper but I can see why you made the mistake...good guide though.

I list it as Reaper because the CCC bonuses only apply with the upgrade to Scythe.  So as to avoid confusion as to whether or not you need the upgrade for it, because you do.  But I see how it can throw people off.  I'll edit it in in a bit.

naughty99 wrote...

This is excellent info, thanks for putting this together.

You might want to add Pinning Shot + Disorienting Shot to the list of ways to set up DISORIENTED targets.

Thanks.  I thought I was missing another DISORIENT setup, I'll throw that in now.

SuicidialBaby wrote...

I don't understand why you would take spirit healer over force mage when it fits with the theme you've established. You have 2 mages, just have both get barrier and heal. It's not a stretch and force is 100x more useful than spirit healer.  Fist of the maker  works with combos.  Pull of the void is incredible cc.  Grav is pure lockdown.

The idea was to be much less of CC and much more of an actual Archmage, i.e. throwing spell arounds and nuking things.  I personally find Force Mage to be lackluster.  Besides of Unshakable, you're not doing yourself any favors by investing in skills that accomplish little outside of support.  This mage definitely wants to set up and exploit CCCs, so the Force Mage tree doesn't actually contribute a lot in that regard.

I choose Spirit Healer because it provides party flexibility, you can probably run Sebastien without any problems since your Healing > Anders Healing (except for the cooldowns, but I think the better healing powers more than make up for that).  I'm cleaning up the Deep Roads so I'm not able to use Sebastien yet, but I should be able to try very soon.  Spirit Healer also synergizes well with the way Blood Mage is used in this build.  Blood Magic is an extra mana pool.  You will be casting a lot, so naturally you'll have to turn on Blood Magic.  Spirit Healer is an excellent way to recover health lost via Blood Magic.  And then once you finish healing, go back to Blood Magic if you need it.  Voilá, a self-sustaining system of death and destruction.  Force Mages don't have that ability to become a self-sustaining system.  If you want to constantly tote around Anders, go ahead, but Force Mage requires different tactics than what I advocate (what you're thinking of is probably a Battlemage, and there's a guide for that), and I don't like Anders much in this game.

Also, Vitality is key here.  The extra Constitution saves you a ton of stat points, which you can use to maintain reasonable spell power.

edit: Yes, Fist of the Maker CCCs with STAGGERED, but as you can see the only consistent source of STAGGERED is off of Sunder from your 2H Warrior, which I don't think occurs enough to make Fist of the Maker much of a use.

double edit: There is now a stat distribution section in the guide, didn't realize it wasn't there.  and not that I can currently try it, but Sebastien is starting to sound even better now since he can get that Decoy skill, which definitely would be a boon, and for all the threat it re-allocates could be about equivalent to an Anders heal spell.

Force mage does have that 900% damage bonus on fist of the maker AND it has a very low cool down; Fenris staggering multiple enemies does make it seem worth it, no?

[ezrafetch]

Stardusk78 wrote...

I am playing a support mage as Hawke
(Spirit Healer) one one runthrough but I wanted to do an evilish blood
mage one too...and I wanted to max out elemental...thing is, I have
noticed, fire damage sucks; even with all the bonuses it does next to
nothing and on nightmare required very careful positioning; is there any
point in maxing out elemental?

On Nightmare, I personally don't think so.  You get much better damage going through the Primal tree.  I seriously wish that the Fire line was better (like its DAO counterpart), but alas, it was not meant to be.  I think you'd even be better served going through the Spirit tree rather than the Fire tree, and that is even suboptimal to the Primal Tree.

Stardusk78 wrote...

Force mage does have that 900% damage bonus on fist of the maker AND it has a very low cool down; Fenris staggering multiple enemies does make it seem worth it, no?

I'm honestly not sure how often Fenris inflicts STAGGERED on enemies, but my impression is that simply won't trigger enough to be worthwhile.  In addition, I think Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction is enough to complement any STAGGERED instances that do occur.  While Warrior starting a STAGGERED CCC with a mage finish is viable and certainly should not be ignored while you're in-game, I think for the purposes of this particular mage your primary purpose should likely be starting off the CCCs, in which case BRITTLE is king as you have multiple ways to set that up (Winter's Blast, Deep Freeze, Dessicate) and tons and tons of ways of exploiting it.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 15 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Colma]

ezrafetch wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

I am playing a support mage as Hawke
(Spirit Healer) one one runthrough but I wanted to do an evilish blood
mage one too...and I wanted to max out elemental...thing is, I have
noticed, fire damage sucks; even with all the bonuses it does next to
nothing and on nightmare required very careful positioning; is there any
point in maxing out elemental?

On Nightmare, I personally don't think so.  You get much better damage going through the Primal tree.  I seriously wish that the Fire line was better (like its DAO counterpart), but alas, it was not meant to be.  I think you'd even be better served going through the Spirit tree rather than the Fire tree, and that is even suboptimal to the Primal Tree.

Stardusk78 wrote...

Force mage does have that 900% damage bonus on fist of the maker AND it has a very low cool down; Fenris staggering multiple enemies does make it seem worth it, no?

I'm honestly not sure how often Fenris inflicts STAGGERED on enemies, but my impression is that simply won't trigger enough to be worthwhile.  In addition, I think Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction is enough to complement any STAGGERED instances that do occur.  While Warrior starting a STAGGERED CCC with a mage finish is viable and certainly should not be ignored while you're in-game, I think for the purposes of this particular mage your primary purpose should likely be starting off the CCCs, in which case BRITTLE is king as you have multiple ways to set that up (Winter's Blast, Deep Freeze, Dessicate) and tons and tons of ways of exploiting it.

Fenris' chance of staggering is 50% every critical hit with sunder, and his critical chance can reach well over 50% itself in Act 1 if you build him right. So thats ~25% chance each and every swing will cause stagger. Expect 10+ enemies every average, reinforcement fueled fight are gonna get staggered at some point, almost always culstered together...with his AoE auto-attack, taunt and 2 mages the carnage is ridiculous on any difficulty.



To OP:
Nice build, but its not gonna beat nightmare. Nightmare is just too infuriating without unshakable. Everything in does way too much damage to risk knockback and stunlock. Sure you have ways to avoid it, but it will inevitably and often happen, especially with the retarded reinforcements every fight. When it does go ahead and reload, you won't be getting on your feet again.

[SuicidalBaby]

Force mage lackluster? lol you do know what is in the spell tree? lol Force synergies with Blood mage so well you could probably solo with it.

[Prismo]

Personally, I would much rather take Anders for the purposes of healing and go Force Mage. If not for the extremely useful spells then at the very least for unshakable, once you play a mage that doesn’t flinch when enemies so much as look at you it is very hard to go back.

ezrafetch wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...

Force mage does have that 900% damage bonus on fist of the maker AND it has a very low cool down; Fenris staggering multiple enemies does make it seem worth it, no?

I'm honestly not sure how often Fenris inflicts STAGGERED on enemies, but my impression is that simply won't trigger enough to be worthwhile.  In addition, I think Chain Lightning + Chain Reaction is enough to complement any STAGGERED instances that do occur.  While Warrior starting a STAGGERED CCC with a mage finish is viable and certainly should not be ignored while you're in-game, I think for the purposes of this particular mage your primary purpose should likely be starting off the CCCs, in which case BRITTLE is king as you have multiple ways to set that up (Winter's Blast, Deep Freeze, Dessicate) and tons and tons of ways of exploiting it.

I don't see it. I can see Brittle being a very attractive CCC if you are playing a Rogue Assassin (especially an Archer), but if you are playing a mage the only CCC opportunities that Brittle affords are with Varric and Fenris/Carver, out of these possibilities only one doesn't have Friendly Fire considerations, not to mention the chances of you having a 2h Warrior in your party drops precipitously in Nightmare.

Having said that, I think Winter's Blast and Dessicate are great spells and I am neither advocating avoiding their use or failing to capitalise on their CCC potential I am just saying that I think not actively seeking Stagger opportunities is a mistake. If you want your mage to do any kind of respectable damage then Stagger is your go to CCC starter, Chain Lightning on a Staggered enemy is great, but Crushing Prison on a Staggered enemy is a thing of beauty. Aveline by herself is all you need, she has two abilities (namely Shield Bash and Pummel Strike), both on 10s cooldowns, that are very cheap skill point wise.

Modifié par Chazzwazza, 15 mars 2011 - 02:33 .

[ezrafetch]

Colma wrote...

Fenris' chance of staggering is 50% every critical hit with sunder, and his critical chance can reach well over
50% itself in Act 1 if you build him right. So thats ~25% chance each and every swing will cause stagger. Expect 10+ enemies every average, reinforcement fueled fight are gonna get staggered at some point, almost always culstered together...with his AoE auto-attack, taunt and 2 mages the carnage is ridiculous on any difficulty.


To OP:
Nice build, but its not gonna beat nightmare. Nightmare is just too infuriating without unshakable. Everything in does way too much damage to risk knockback and stunlock. Sure you have ways to avoid it, but it will inevitably and often happen, especially with the retarded reinforcements every fight. When it does go ahead and reload, you won't be getting on your feet again.

Chazzwazza wrote...

Personally, I would much rather take Anders for the purposes of healing and go Force Mage. If not for
the extremely useful spells then at the very least for unshakable, once you play a mage that doesn’t flinch when enemies so much as look at you it is very hard to go back.

I've been alternating between Hard and Nightmare with my mage currently (once I had to turn it down to normal because I couldn't not proc different 6 fights at once at the docks in Act 1).  I haven't found it absolutely horrid.  I had to reload once in awhile, but I don't see how it was the absurdity many claim it to be.  Don't put yourself in the position to be hit.  The purpose of this mage is to be ranged.  You have skills to get you in a better position if an enemy gets close (Cone of Cold, Glyphs, Confusion, Fog, Sebastien's Decoy if you run it).  And you should have ways to get threat off of you if you build it up (Goad, Taunt come to mind).  When I run Anders, I have him cast Glyph of Paralysis in sticky situations, which will allow me to put enough distance (even easier if it's upgraded).  If you need to go in for a Cone of Cold, it's just a matter of making sure guys aren't breathing down your back when you go in, the slow effect should be enough to begin with.

The only advantage of going Force Mage outside of Unshakable I can see is that most of the skills put people in the same spot, for AoE, but then that's asking for FF if too many folks get sucked in.  That being said, I haven't really tried Force Mage on Nightmare.  I will give it a shot, but I think to claim it as a spec you ABSOLUTELY CAN NEVER GO WITHOUT is a little...much.

I don't see it. I can see Brittle being a very attractive CCC if you are playing a Rogue Assassin (especially an Archer), but if you are playing a mage the only CCC opportunities that Brittle affords are with Varric and Fenris/Carver, out of these possibilities only one doesn't have Friendly Fire considerations, not to mention the chances of you having a 2h Warrior in your party drops precipitously in Nightmare.

Having said that, I think Winter's Blast and Dessicate are great spells and I am neither advocating avoiding their use or failing to capitalise on their CCC potential I am just saying that I think not actively seeking Stagger opportunities is a mistake. If you want your mage to do any kind of respectable damage then Stagger is your go to CCC starter, Chain Lightning on a Staggered enemy is great, but Crushing Prison on a Staggered enemy is a thing of beauty. Aveline by herself is all you need, she has two abilities (namely Shield Bash and Pummel Strike), both on 10s cooldowns, that are very cheap skill point wise.

I didn't really say that one should completely ignore STAGGERED as a CCC possibility.  There's an upgraded Chain Lightning for a reason.  But with upgraded Cone of Cold, Winter's Blast, Petrify, there's going to be tons of more chances to work with BRITTLE than with only one way to resolve STAGGERED, through upgraded Chain Lightning.  Of course, the thing here is that you're starting the CCC, you're not finishing it off, so it does require good tactics.  And I don't really care about who's finishing or who's starting the combo.

STAGGERED on an enemy still gives tons of useful benefits (-25% attack, -25% defense), but that can be more than enough at times.  If you have a focus on STAGGERED CCCs then I see where Force Mage becomes more useful, since Fist of the Maker works with STAGGERED, but as I noted above I don't think Force Mage is the, well, force that most people claim it to be.  If you, of course, want to work with STAGGERED as a primary CCC, then yes, I think that Aveline is a top option.

I also think that Varric and Fenris/Carver is already plenty of CCC resolution.  There's at least four abilities between the two that will resolve BRITTLE.  And if you want to involve Sebastien, well...that's six.

I appreciate the feedback.  This is a new game and I expect strategies to change as we all get more familiar with the game.  Testing and such will be required.  Perhaps it's reasonable to divide Archmages into two strains...BRITTLE vs. STAGGERED.  If you run with BRITTLE, I think it's best to not worry about taking Force Mage.  If you take STAGGERED, then it's more worth it to take Force Mage.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 15 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[atheelogos]

naughty99 wrote...

This is excellent info, thanks for putting this together.

indeed!

Modifié par atheelogos, 15 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[rahf226]

Can someone test the skill point glitch he talks about? I tried it on my rogue and it didn't work. Does it only work for mages?

[GuyNice]

If you're using Fenris/Carver as a tank, Claymore (the upgrade to Cleave) helps with setting up STAGGERED. Combined with Sunder, your 2hand Tank will be causing serious amounts of STAGGER everywhere.

Modifié par GuyNice, 15 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[ezrafetch]

rahf226 wrote...

Can someone test the skill point glitch
he talks about? I tried it on my rogue and it didn't work. Does it only
work for mages?

I'm not sure how it works for anyone else besides 360.  You Maker's Sigh, allocate your points, the reload your last save.  You'll see that you'll get not only the new skills you've learned, but you'll still have all your old skills.  So you're gaining skill points equal to the amount of new skills you pick up.  You can re-Maker's Sigh to have a ton of points to spend.  The only skill points it can't duplicate are the specialization ones, so be aware.

--------

After testing Force Mage a bit more, I'm warming up to it but as I said before, I don't know if it's quite the powerhouse most people think it is. However, I'm starting to see a paradigm shift with the way I previously approached developing the mage (3 types of damage) and a way where I'm developing the mage now (setting up/executing CCCs). It's yielding separate builds, and it's determining what skills, what specs you take:

[1] BRITTLE requires Elemental, Primal (the original Archmage), with Force Mage / Spirit Healer (need to think about this spec selection more, though, but on paper seems right). This one, at least, has three different damage types. Since BRITTLE is the mage-starting CCC, you'll be setting up CCCs rather than completing them. It's pretty easy to set them up since Petrify + Dessicate and Winter's Grasp + Winter's Blast are 100% chance to BRITTLE while Cone of Cold + Deep Freeze is 60% (assuming you get the Elemental Mastery at the end of the line).
[2] STAGGERED requires a little bit of Primal, a little bit of Arcane, with Force Mage and Blood Mage specs. This one really only covers physical with lightning damage, however. You'll have to find a third type of damage, which may be difficult as there isn't a whole lot of room for flexibility. You will be finishing CCCs primarily.
[3] DISORIENTED requires Spirit, Primal, with Blood Mage and Spirit Healer (though I think for this one Force Mage likely works). This one really requires 2x Rogues to work, because there's not really a whole lot going on in the DISORIENTED-causing department. Also, you will be finishing combos mostly. You'll have some Spirit and some Physical, but I don't think it would be hard or bad to pick up a third type of damage.

If Fenris/Carver inflicts tons of STAGGERED with Claymore and Cleave, [2] might be the best way to go. Of course, you could set up tons of BRITTLE with your mage and exploit them with multiple Rogues, or use multiple Rogues to exploit DISORIENTED combos.  For all I know, you could combine BRITTLE/DISORIENT into one mage, but I'd have to work with the Talent Calculator and iron out the kinks, as I don't think there are enough skill points to go around for both.  My impression is that you could pick a "primary" CCC and relegate the other as a "secondary," and which one you do is personal preference.

And, I tried running Sebastien instead of Varric and it was disastrous, though I may chalk that up to not having a second spec yet, in addition to not being able to pull off the needed CCCs yet.

If you all have any other input, let me know.  I'm going to figure out how to re-construct the guide. It'll take a serious bit of work, and I may not get around to it until Wednesday (it's unfortunate that DA2 came around the week before my finals week...).

Modifié par ezrafetch, 15 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[themaxzero]

Um Brittle is quite poor as a CC. Too limited to apply.

You ain't setting up multiple Rogues with Brittle. The only AoE version is Cone of Cold with a 60% chance. Compared that to AoE Warriors doing on auto attacks (and a bonus chance on crits) or Rogues setting up Disorientate with Fatiguing Fog with a 100% chance and Confusion with a 50% chance AoE.

As a Mage your bread and butter is finishing Stagger with Chain Lightning (which is doable from level 6) and Confusion (replace with Fog at 13) + Walking Bomb (doable from level 9). While the Walking Bomb combo is weaker, Walking Bomb itself is so powerful it does not need to a combo to kill.

Petrify and Dessicate are the only Brittle enabler I use.

Modifié par themaxzero, 15 mars 2011 - 08:00 .

[Stardusk78]

ezrafetch wrote...

rahf226 wrote...

Can someone test the skill point glitch
he talks about? I tried it on my rogue and it didn't work. Does it only
work for mages?

I'm not sure how it works for anyone else besides 360.  You Maker's Sigh, allocate your points, the reload your last save.  You'll see that you'll get not only the new skills you've learned, but you'll still have all your old skills.  So you're gaining skill points equal to the amount of new skills you pick up.  You can re-Maker's Sigh to have a ton of points to spend.  The only skill points it can't duplicate are the specialization ones, so be aware.

--------

After testing Force Mage a bit more, I'm warming up to it but as I said before, I don't know if it's quite the powerhouse most people think it is. However, I'm starting to see a paradigm shift with the way I previously approached developing the mage (3 types of damage) and a way where I'm developing the mage now (setting up/executing CCCs). It's yielding separate builds, and it's determining what skills, what specs you take:

[1] BRITTLE requires Elemental, Primal (the original Archmage), with Force Mage / Spirit Healer (need to think about this spec selection more, though, but on paper seems right). This one, at least, has three different damage types. Since BRITTLE is the mage-starting CCC, you'll be setting up CCCs rather than completing them. It's pretty easy to set them up since Petrify + Dessicate and Winter's Grasp + Winter's Blast are 100% chance to BRITTLE while Cone of Cold + Deep Freeze is 60% (assuming you get the Elemental Mastery at the end of the line).
[2] STAGGERED requires a little bit of Primal, a little bit of Arcane, with Force Mage and Blood Mage specs. This one really only covers physical with lightning damage, however. You'll have to find a third type of damage, which may be difficult as there isn't a whole lot of room for flexibility. You will be finishing CCCs primarily.
[3] DISORIENTED requires Spirit, Primal, with Blood Mage and Spirit Healer (though I think for this one Force Mage likely works). This one really requires 2x Rogues to work, because there's not really a whole lot going on in the DISORIENTED-causing department. Also, you will be finishing combos mostly. You'll have some Spirit and some Physical, but I don't think it would be hard or bad to pick up a third type of damage.

If Fenris/Carver inflicts tons of STAGGERED with Claymore and Cleave, [2] might be the best way to go. Of course, you could set up tons of BRITTLE with your mage and exploit them with multiple Rogues, or use multiple Rogues to exploit DISORIENTED combos.  For all I know, you could combine BRITTLE/DISORIENT into one mage, but I'd have to work with the Talent Calculator and iron out the kinks, as I don't think there are enough skill points to go around for both.  My impression is that you could pick a "primary" CCC and relegate the other as a "secondary," and which one you do is personal preference.

And, I tried running Sebastien instead of Varric and it was disastrous, though I may chalk that up to not having a second spec yet, in addition to not being able to pull off the needed CCCs yet.

If you all have any other input, let me know.  I'm going to figure out how to re-construct the guide. It'll take a serious bit of work, and I may not get around to it until Wednesday (it's unfortunate that DA2 came around the week before my finals week...).

Some Fenris input; I found that with Sunder he caused a lot of staggering so I think any viable mage build (offensive) will include chain lightning but also hemorage and fist of the maker. I definitely think you get staggers quite often from Fenris; alternatively, maxed out Aveline shield has a number of stagger effects too. Carver I just don't like...hehe.

[ezrafetch]

I overhauled the guide, new build. I still think there's a fork in the road with the second specialization. I discuss that in the guide. The Archmage in general now focuses much more on executing CCCs.  Took much, much less time than I anticipated (my testing probably helped me sort everything out in my head).  I also re-titled it since I think the guide is much more capable for Nightmare difficulty now.  And who wants to play on anything less than Nightmare anyways?

Modifié par ezrafetch, 15 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[atheelogos]

does anyone know the max level without cheats?

[atheelogos]

anyone?

[Gennojo Ryuga]

How would a Force Mage/Spirit Healer build work on Nightmare, I'd figure both unshakeable and vitality would greatly benefit a nightmare run, what's everyones thoughts on this?

[ezrafetch]

Gennojo Ryuga wrote...

How would a Force Mage/Spirit Healer build work on Nightmare, I'd figure both unshakeable and vitality would greatly benefit a nightmare run, what's everyones thoughts on this?

I think it can work, but if I went Force Mage/Spirit Healer I'd definitely be emphasizing the de/buffing aspects, with a greater focus on the Creation tree.  I'm going to be looking into this a bit more, so it will be addressed in the guide down the road.

I've updated the guide with sample companion builds.  Been doing a Nightmare-ONLY run with my mage, been toting around Aveline, Varric, and now Merrill.  No real problems.  I had to avoid doing the "The Way It Should Be" ambush one because I hadn't properly respecced and was running with two warriors, so I don't forsee any new problems going in with Merrill...

Modifié par ezrafetch, 21 mars 2011 - 04:01 .