168 réponses à ce sujet

[Axis Swordarm]

I will admit I was already lukewarm on the propsect of Dragon Age 2 after hearing the marketing drone about every button doing something awesome and some of the writers attempts to generate excitement through describing characters as gigglesquee.

However, I was still surprised to find that Dragon Age 2 simply was not enjoyable to me for two major reasons. 

Design Flaws

When you set a game in a City over the span of ten years, and the entire focus is on that city, and the lives within, it needs to be interesting.  Kirkwall was grey and brown and I won't even go into commenting on the reuse of areas.

There was no atmosphere in this game, there was no sense of moving through a city you love or hate, it was just there.  A few hundred square feet of nothing with the exciting names Hightown, Lowtown and Darktown.  NPC's simply stand around gossiping as you slaughter wave after wave of people with no reason to attack you, especially not in such numbers.

They'll state, casually, how boring a night it is as you use your magic sword to blow up 20 guys with the name Fake Guardsmen.  A sense of mystery and wonder is just not possible in this place and I saw NWN Persistent worlds with greater depth to a city.  The design strategy for this game makes pretty much no sense, it's pretty much Courier Quest 3D for fifteen hours.

Why do you believe that this decision was a good one?  Why do you believe that it should make for a gripping experience on a tactical, emotional and atmospheric level?

Writing Flaws

Even more obvious is the terrible writing on display in every aspect of the game.  From overall plot to simply holding a conversation the writing fails to generate anything approaching immersion or invitation to care.  Hawke is as charismatic as a cinder block and his absolute lack of purpose shatters any real meaning in the game.

You need motivation, you don't need a world shattering evil to craft a story and I appreciate this was an attempt to do just that but it's either incompetence on the writers part or a conscious decision not to have any form of hook for the story.  Your companions simply say they'll stick around, in most cases there is no reason for you even to be friends except to play the suck up minigame that guarantees a poorly thought out romp in your rumpus room.

The dialogue was poor on a number of levels, leaning toward exposition over actual engagement.  Why should I give a damn about NPC 289676 When their first act is to start describing in monotonous detail the circumstances that led them to one of 3 reasons for needing help from Kirkwalls resident pizza boy?

I genuinely want to know what the writing process was and whether you will actually evolve and learn anything from this? 

Why do characters talk about the Templars with fear and worry because they're mages as they stagger through the streets blowing fire from their gigantic permanently on display Wizard Staffs in full view of their apparent ennemies? 

Compiling hooks for each character that are logical and make sense along with a narrative that entertains is the central part of the writing process. You can do either on their own, but it works best when matched together.  There has been very little logic in DA2 and even less sense, worst of all there is no true narrative or depth to any events.  The greatest issue is that it's boring, there is no investment, it's simply going through the motions without any drama or real change.

There's no drive here, there's no power to anything that happens.

What are you going to take away from this to improve future games?

[Cymaniel]

This is my biggest worry here. The game itself is fine. Its fun. I enjoyed it. But as i finish I find i just dont care. When i finished the first I wanted more! More more! Now I troll the forums responding to things i care about in the game, because I dont actually want to play the game. I mean I want to play the game but i just cant. Because I know ill play through it all again get to the end, and i just wont care again.

[mickey6688]

Sadly, I have to agree with you. I plan on putting a proper piece up myself, but I've decided to wait a couple of weeks, both because BioWare is more likely to pay attention after what they refer to as the reaction period is over, and because the forum trolls will probably tucker their little fingers out.

Still, I will say that this shouldn't be derided by anyone as some useless piece of hate. These are concerns that are common at least to me, if not many others, and are legitimate.

[Sandy2009]

If you think of this game as written by teenagers, designed by teenagers, programmed by teenagers for teenage audience, then everything makes sense. Obviously most people complaining in this forum are not the target audience. 

[Axis Swordarm]

I'm harsh here because I just logged off and really don't know if I can muster the will to play any further in Act 3. I've always been a huge fan of Biowares games and love change for the better, Mass Effect 2 was brilliantly done to me and I also loved Origins.

However absolutely nothing I've encountered make me think this was positive change or even sensible design decisions. The writing baffled me most of all because in most instances it certainly didn't put me in the mindframe that this was done with any real love or heart. More daytime soap than dark epic.

I agree with you Sandy, it also makes me wish they would avoid trying to bill it as mature or grim when the characters or narrative, have no appeal in those terms at all.

Modifié par Axis Swordarm, 14 mars 2011 - 03:50 .

[Stanley Woo]

Believe me when I say that we do look at many different threads in our community, and unlike some of the threads we've been reading, we don't automatically dismiss opinions and thoughts that disagree with ours. We are human, however, and we can only take so much "sensationalist hyperbole" with the criticism. Well presented thoughts and opinions like this thread and a few others I've been reading are a good way to present your likes and dislikes.

We believe many of the concerns are legitimate. We would prefer to hear them without the conspiracy theories, name-calling, insults, spam, and posturing. Thank you for presenting yourselves and your opinions well. We appreciate it.

EDIT: I would also prefer good threads to not be hijacked or sidetracked by internet memes and folks who think the posted forum rules do not apply. Again, thank you.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 14 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Cobrawar]

[Now it's spam.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 14 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[Adugan]

Stanley, I was just wondering... are the devs ignoring some of the issues due to fear of a PR meltdown?

[DA2isBad]

Design flaws.

[mr_nameless]

Axis Swordarm wrote...

I will admit I was already lukewarm on the propsect of Dragon Age 2 after hearing the marketing drone about every button doing something awesome and some of the writers attempts to generate excitement through describing characters as gigglesquee.

However, I was still surprised to find that Dragon Age 2 simply was not enjoyable to me for two major reasons. 

Design Flaws

When you set a game in a City over the span of ten years, and the entire focus is on that city, and the lives within, it needs to be interesting.  Kirkwall was grey and brown and I won't even go into commenting on the reuse of areas.

There was no atmosphere in this game, there was no sense of moving through a city you love or hate, it was just there.  A few hundred square feet of nothing with the exciting names Hightown, Lowtown and Darktown.  NPC's simply stand around gossiping as you slaughter wave after wave of people with no reason to attack you, especially not in such numbers.

They'll state, casually, how boring a night it is as you use your magic sword to blow up 20 guys with the name Fake Guardsmen.  A sense of mystery and wonder is just not possible in this place and I saw NWN Persistent worlds with greater depth to a city.  The design strategy for this game makes pretty much no sense, it's pretty much Courier Quest 3D for fifteen hours.

Why do you believe that this decision was a good one?  Why do you believe that it should make for a gripping experience on a tactical, emotional and atmospheric level?

Writing Flaws

Even more obvious is the terrible writing on display in every aspect of the game.  From overall plot to simply holding a conversation the writing fails to generate anything approaching immersion or invitation to care.  Hawke is as charismatic as a cinder block and his absolute lack of purpose shatters any real meaning in the game.

You need motivation, you don't need a world shattering evil to craft a story and I appreciate this was an attempt to do just that but it's either incompetence on the writers part or a conscious decision not to have any form of hook for the story.  Your companions simply say they'll stick around, in most cases there is no reason for you even to be friends except to play the suck up minigame that guarantees a poorly thought out romp in your rumpus room.

The dialogue was poor on a number of levels, leaning toward exposition over actual engagement.  Why should I give a damn about NPC 289676 When their first act is to start describing in monotonous detail the circumstances that led them to one of 3 reasons for needing help from Kirkwalls resident pizza boy?

I genuinely want to know what the writing process was and whether you will actually evolve and learn anything from this? 

Why do characters talk about the Templars with fear and worry because they're mages as they stagger through the streets blowing fire from their gigantic permanently on display Wizard Staffs in full view of their apparent ennemies? 

Compiling hooks for each character that are logical and make sense along with a narrative that entertains is the central part of the writing process. You can do either on their own, but it works best when matched together.  There has been very little logic in DA2 and even less sense, worst of all there is no true narrative or depth to any events.  The greatest issue is that it's boring, there is no investment, it's simply going through the motions without any drama or real change.

There's no drive here, there's no power to anything that happens.

What are you going to take away from this to improve future games?

Coulnd't agree more. 

[kozzy420420]

I agree with your points about some of the design, but definatly dont agree with your opinion on teh writing. I though the writing of the dialogue and story was very well done.

[Sandy2009]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Believe me when I say that we do look at many different threads in our community, and unlike some of the threads we've been reading, we don't automatically dismiss opinions and thoughts that disagree with ours. We are human, however, and we can only take so much "sensationalist hyperbole" with the criticism. Well presented thoughts and opinions like this thread and a few others I've been reading are a good way to present your likes and dislikes.

We believe many of the concerns are legitimate. We would prefer to hear them without the conspiracy theories, name-calling, insults, spam, and posturing. Thank you for presenting yourselves and your opinions well. We appreciate it.

EDIT: I would also prefer good threads to not be hijacked or sidetracked by internet memes and folks who think the posted forum rules do not apply. Again, thank you.

Since Stanley answered so politely, I have a question for Stanley. Is the reaction you got for DA2 unexpected for you? In other words, were you expecting your fans will be happy to embrace DA2? 

[Psython]

Agreed. I groan everytime I mow down 20 random thugs in the street right in front of a templar using firestorm. I havent finished yet but I have no idea what the point of this game is except for getting rich. This is definately the worst Bioware game I have played in a lot of ways. However, its still a pretty fun experience with some good elements that just never came together properly.

Also, everytime I see Isabela I laugh. What an ugly trashy outfit :}

[DA2isBad]

@Stan We understand you guysare human and dont like being insulted.

We dont like being insulted by your products either. And quite frankly what you put out for our consumption at a $60 price point and expected to do better than it is (according to Laidlaw in his interview) was pretty insulting to our intelligence as consumers and gamers.

In other words, Bioware trolled us and is getting trolled back in return.

[Addai]

I won't comment on the design and atmosphere, as I personally found it fine. The world could have been much bigger and more detailed, especially given a linear game where open world is not the priority, but what was there was tasteful and beautiful and had creative touches.

I find it hard to believe we played the same game, however, when it comes to the writing. I was impressed by both the dialogue and the game story. I thought there was a bit too much "evil magery" around- mages slaughtering innocents on every corner- but other than that heavy hand, I thought they did a marvelous job of introducing, building, weaving and resolving both big and small plot elements with the character stories. Origins may have had more depth, but DA2 raises the stakes for the story of Thedas, while still introducing a new hero and blending in the events of Origins. Does the OP really appreciate how difficult it is to do that, in a game where player choice also has to matter?

[Gvaz]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Believe me when I say that we do look at many different threads in our community, and unlike some of the threads we've been reading, we don't automatically dismiss opinions and thoughts that disagree with ours. We are human, however, and we can only take so much "sensationalist hyperbole" with the criticism. Well presented thoughts and opinions like this thread and a few others I've been reading are a good way to present your likes and dislikes.

We believe many of the concerns are legitimate. We would prefer to hear them without the conspiracy theories, name-calling, insults, spam, and posturing. Thank you for presenting yourselves and your opinions well. We appreciate it.

EDIT: I would also prefer good threads to not be hijacked or sidetracked by internet memes and folks who think the posted forum rules do not apply. Again, thank you.

If I was to write a well written letter outlining what the general public seems to be saying about the game, would the devs read it?

I feel that in both ME1->ME2 and now DA:O->DA2, there seemed to have been a lot of "throw the baby out with the bathwater" going on in design, regardless if people liked a mechanic or not.

I wouldn't expect anything to be taken to heart, but at most I'd like the designers to awknowledge certain issues more than people in this forum and elsewhere going "THIS GAEM IS TEH SUXX I HAET THIS PART" and not suggesting alternatives or why they didn't like something.

When it comes down to it, it's noble to design a game you might like to play as the designers, but at the end of the day it's us who will buy your product.

The most I can do is to suggest things, and the team can decide what they want to do.

Modifié par GvazElite, 14 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[DA2isBad]

@Sandy2009 According to Mike Laidlaw in his post release DA2 defence interview yes, they expected the game to be recieved much better. He also went on to say he beileved all criticism was from... of all things... 4Chan. Google eurogamer to see the review. It's quite disturbing.

[Upset Goldfish]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Believe me when I say that we do look at many different threads in our community, and unlike some of the threads we've been reading, we don't automatically dismiss opinions and thoughts that disagree with ours. We are human, however, and we can only take so much "sensationalist hyperbole" with the criticism. Well presented thoughts and opinions like this thread and a few others I've been reading are a good way to present your likes and dislikes.

We believe many of the concerns are legitimate. We would prefer to hear them without the conspiracy theories, name-calling, insults, spam, and posturing. Thank you for presenting yourselves and your opinions well. We appreciate it.

EDIT: I would also prefer good threads to not be hijacked or sidetracked by internet memes and folks who think the posted forum rules do not apply. Again, thank you.

This I support. The forums have been so flooded with crap in thhe past few days that a decent, calmly-explained thread has been hard to come by, or hijacked by that god damn dog in the giraffe suit.

OP, I have to agree with you. When the main setting is dull and uninspired, those feelings are reflected on me whilst I play: dull and uninspired.

I have no motivation to save GENERIC CITIZEN #447, especially when the reward for saving them is, most of the time, some fairly bland dialogue. 

The discussions with your squadmates also seemed rather shallow, although I am exceptionally glad that there is no more "Zevran Syndrome" (AKA WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS FLIRTING WITH ME).

[Persephone]

DA2isBad wrote...

@Stan We understand you guysare human and dont like being insulted.

We dont like being insulted by your products either. And quite frankly what you put out for our consumption at a $60 price point and expected to do better than it is (according to Laidlaw in his interview) was pretty insulting to our intelligence as consumers and gamers.

In other words, Bioware trolled us and is getting trolled back in return.

How VERY mature.

[Cobrawar]

DA2isBad wrote...

@Stan We understand you guysare human and dont like being insulted.

We dont like being insulted by your products either. And quite frankly what you put out for our consumption at a $60 price point and expected to do better than it is (according to Laidlaw in his interview) was pretty insulting to our intelligence as consumers and gamers.

In other words, Bioware trolled us and is getting trolled back in return.

 I would call fan reaction more akin to rage.

Modifié par Cobrawar, 14 mars 2011 - 04:02 .

[Cajeb]

Obviously some of this is part of just being in a video game. They let you play blood mage even if it breaks realism.

However, the writing was worse than I have come to expect from a Bioware game. The two main problems are a lack of a narrative hook/drive and a lack of meaningful choice. What is Hawke's purpose throughout the game? What can he really affect?

[strinder]

I just didn't get why I was doing anything in this game. Ok, at first I needed to get my family out of the slums... but then? Am I just an adrenaline junky? Ultimately as I have said on these forums before, this entire game just feels like one long trailer for Dragon Age 3.

[Selectric]

Very much agreed.

[SmokePants]

The writing was awesome. It's a dynamic, variable game, rather than a static, linear book. They have so much more to consider. I don't know how they pull off what they do and I find it outrageous for people to question their competence. I have to assume it stems from extreme ignorance of the entire process.

[Sandy2009]

DA2isBad wrote...

@Sandy2009 According to Mike Laidlaw in his post release DA2 defence interview yes, they expected the game to be recieved much better. He also went on to say he beileved all criticism was from... of all things... 4Chan. Google eurogamer to see the review. It's quite disturbing.

This more like a political defence. Mike is lead designer and probably finds it easier to blame the evil 4chan instead of placing the responsibilty where it belongs.Very few people are good at introspection.

I believe at least some people in company should have been able to predict the fans reaction. That's why they put out the demo (don't buy if you don't like the demo) .