168 réponses à ce sujet

[Kingofdragoons]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Another thing is the city of Kirkwall - it's a city not a hallway right? Where are the markets? The wide open spaces with interesting people to talk to? Why are the streets laid out like a platform game instead of a city?

For my 10 cents, only Rockstar and Bethesda have ever built realistic fully realized cities. Everywhere else it's the bare minimum of a city while giving you whatever the gameplay requires a Hub to be.

It's just a part of suspending your disbelief. You have to belief that there's more to a city than the Hub before you.

Amaranthine wasn't bad though. Neither was Vigil's Keep for that opening. That place looked cool.

Im going to have to argue with you because the only real thing they had to spend alot of time creating out of the world was Kirkwall. You spend 80% of the game in that city so they had plenty of reason to make it feel as life like as possible. Yeah they had the coast and a couple other zones but half of it is just recycled over and over again throughtout the game.

Not that in the end this was anything that would really have made or broke the game for me. Heck the original Mass Effect had that all over the place.

[Jaduggar]

Axis Swordarm wrote...

For example in ASOIAF people lie, they lie and they cheat, but they all act towards their personal goals and you can respect the characters because of that.  You may not like them at all, but you are gripped by their manouvering.

The same goes for the supporting cast, they only ever react in ways dictated by plot or worse what is funny to say at a given time.  They're written for moments and not as individuals.  There's no real emotion there because characters are simply telling you their story or acting out a set path that in many cases isn't logical and isn't impacted by anything but the railway line the narrative is on.

Your rant is both pointless and vague without stating any concrete examples of characters or their properties.

And, out of curiosity, do you think Valve has created any 'real' characters?

[Thibbledorf26]

I recovered the dead corpse of someone in darktown, and returned it to their allies in hightown, who were interested in recording what happened to the person. My character's statement 'Did you drop this somewhere?'. Their response "Oh thanks. I didn't think I would ever find it again'. This is the problem with pre-generated responses to the fed-ex quests.

[Mrbananagrabber]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Believe me when I say that we do look at many different threads in our community, and unlike some of the threads we've been reading, we don't automatically dismiss opinions and thoughts that disagree with ours. We are human, however, and we can only take so much "sensationalist hyperbole" with the criticism. Well presented thoughts and opinions like this thread and a few others I've been reading are a good way to present your likes and dislikes.

We believe many of the concerns are legitimate. We would prefer to hear them without the conspiracy theories, name-calling, insults, spam, and posturing. Thank you for presenting yourselves and your opinions well. We appreciate it.

EDIT: I would also prefer good threads to not be hijacked or sidetracked by internet memes and folks who think the posted forum rules do not apply. Again, thank you.

If you are serious about this Mr Woo, then I suggest you read this thread: http://social.biowar...33058/1#6533268

This perfectly sums up my concern with the direction you guys took with the game.

[Axis Swordarm]

Jaduggar wrote...


Your rant is both pointless and vague without stating any concrete examples of characters or their properties.

And, out of curiosity, do you think Valve has created any 'real' characters?

We're not in the spoiler section, of course I'm not giving exact examples.  However every person you meet who tells you they are innocent you can always believe them meaning pretty much every event in the game is a journey from A-B-C without investigation until the plot presents resolution.  Especially in Act II where events are outside of your control completely due to plot demands.

I have absolutely no idea why you're bringing up Valve, I'd point toward the writing of Uncharted 2 as being quality writing that is almost universally appreciated because it is always based on character and not what works.  Likewise with the motivations of characters in The Witcher, you can justify every main characters actions not by demands of plot but by their experiences and desires.

Bioware, being a company that always pushes the quality of writing as being one of their major strengths are most open to criticism when they get it wrong.  I'd also think they appreciate it more than acceptance of it being passable without improvement.

[Foolsfolly]

He is not a real character, even one the player has control over, that we can share enthusiasm for or have empathy for because the writers want him to be a voiced character but are afraid to make him a real character.

Part of that fear might be because of backlash. Remember how these forums acted when they found out you had one origin? And then again when you had a brother, sister, and mother. They were all screaming about how it ruined RPG'ing and that the game would no longer qualify as an RPG (a debate that's gone on for far too long on these forums).

I think it's a justifiable fear. Perhaps they should have taken more of a stand with the character. Look at John Marston from Red Dead Redemption. You have some choices over his actions but he most definitely his own character. He has his own weight and past, even his appearance evokes a sense of that past.

But it might take away too much from the role-playing. And that'd probably ruin an aspect of the game to some players.

Also, I think all the companions are properly fleshed out characters. They're not as memorable as the Origins guys but they're all full characters and each has a central theme/problem. I liked the characters a lot, and Varric especially.

[Foolsfolly]

Kingofdragoons wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Another thing is the city of Kirkwall - it's a city not a hallway right? Where are the markets? The wide open spaces with interesting people to talk to? Why are the streets laid out like a platform game instead of a city?

For my 10 cents, only Rockstar and Bethesda have ever built realistic fully realized cities. Everywhere else it's the bare minimum of a city while giving you whatever the gameplay requires a Hub to be.

It's just a part of suspending your disbelief. You have to belief that there's more to a city than the Hub before you.

Amaranthine wasn't bad though. Neither was Vigil's Keep for that opening. That place looked cool.

Im going to have to argue with you because the only real thing they had to spend alot of time creating out of the world was Kirkwall. You spend 80% of the game in that city so they had plenty of reason to make it feel as life like as possible. Yeah they had the coast and a couple other zones but half of it is just recycled over and over again throughtout the game.

Not that in the end this was anything that would really have made or broke the game for me. Heck the original Mass Effect had that all over the place.

Oh, I'm not even arguing that! Kirkwall was so
central to the story (it's the only location) that it should have more
impressive on a dozen different levels.

The game would have been
more enjoyable if you saw the city change or felt that the place was more than just a spawning point for 50 ninjas at night. I agree 100%.

I was just saying I've never really seen fully realized cities that engrossed me outside of Rockstar or Bethseda. Liberty City circa GTA4's one of the best realized cities in games. It feels so much like a real city and some of the places in Morrowind and Oblivian felt really well done. Morrowind especially had Balmora which felt familar and real even though it was all really static.

But yes, if you're going to set your game in one place that means you can't rely on variety to spice things up. You must have a well done location. Even something as simple as a seasonal change would have helped. An Act taking place during winter, for example, would have both added much to the visuals and also the story. Imagine all those refugees in Darktown trying to get through a harsh winter. There could be multiple side-quests in that one map alone at winter.

[Jaduggar]

Axis Swordarm wrote...

Jaduggar wrote...


Your rant is both pointless and vague without stating any concrete examples of characters or their properties.

And, out of curiosity, do you think Valve has created any 'real' characters?

We're not in the spoiler section, of course I'm not giving exact examples.  However every person you meet who tells you they are innocent you can always believe them meaning pretty much every event in the game is a journey from A-B-C without investigation until the plot presents resolution.  Especially in Act II where events are outside of your control completely due to plot demands.

I have absolutely no idea why you're bringing up Valve, I'd point toward the writing of Uncharted 2 as being quality writing that is almost universally appreciated because it is always based on character and not what works.  Likewise with the motivations of characters in The Witcher, you can justify every main characters actions not by demands of plot but by their experiences and desires.

Bioware, being a company that always pushes the quality of writing as being one of their major strengths are most open to criticism when they get it wrong.  I'd also think they appreciate it more than acceptance of it being passable without improvement.

I wanted examples of characters that were 'real' of course. I already know that you don't believe the DA2 characters are 'real,' so there's no reason to cite them.

I bring up Valve due to the linearity of their game design, but I suppose Uncharted works just as well.
How are the characters in Uncharted 'real' (Yes, I hate that you used that word), when they follow the exact same thing you just criticized?

"The same goes for the supporting cast, they only ever react in ways dictated by plot or worse what is funny to say at a given time.  They're written for moments and not as individuals.  There's no real emotion there because characters are simply telling you their story or acting out a set path that in many cases isn't logical and isn't impacted by anything but the railway line the narrative is on."

[Kingofdragoons]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Kingofdragoons wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Another thing is the city of Kirkwall - it's a city not a hallway right? Where are the markets? The wide open spaces with interesting people to talk to? Why are the streets laid out like a platform game instead of a city?

For my 10 cents, only Rockstar and Bethesda have ever built realistic fully realized cities. Everywhere else it's the bare minimum of a city while giving you whatever the gameplay requires a Hub to be.

It's just a part of suspending your disbelief. You have to belief that there's more to a city than the Hub before you.

Amaranthine wasn't bad though. Neither was Vigil's Keep for that opening. That place looked cool.

Im going to have to argue with you because the only real thing they had to spend alot of time creating out of the world was Kirkwall. You spend 80% of the game in that city so they had plenty of reason to make it feel as life like as possible. Yeah they had the coast and a couple other zones but half of it is just recycled over and over again throughtout the game.

Not that in the end this was anything that would really have made or broke the game for me. Heck the original Mass Effect had that all over the place.

Oh, I'm not even arguing that! Kirkwall was so
central to the story (it's the only location) that it should have more
impressive on a dozen different levels.

The game would have been
more enjoyable if you saw the city change or felt that the place was more than just a spawning point for 50 ninjas at night. I agree 100%.

I was just saying I've never really seen fully realized cities that engrossed me outside of Rockstar or Bethseda. Liberty City circa GTA4's one of the best realized cities in games. It feels so much like a real city and some of the places in Morrowind and Oblivian felt really well done. Morrowind especially had Balmora which felt familar and real even though it was all really static.

But yes, if you're going to set your game in one place that means you can't rely on variety to spice things up. You must have a well done location. Even something as simple as a seasonal change would have helped. An Act taking place during winter, for example, would have both added much to the visuals and also the story. Imagine all those refugees in Darktown trying to get through a harsh winter. There could be multiple side-quests in that one map alone at winter.

Im not entirely sure but I do think the city changed ever so slightly act to act. If I remember correctly the city starts out very brillant and in the sunlight and by the 3rd act its actually on the verge of the sunset the entire time. I dont know if they we're going for mood with that too make it feel like a darker time in Kirkwall's history... maybe... *Shrug*

[Foolsfolly]

This is off-topic but I really though Alex from Half-Life 2 was a 'real' character. Ok, not so much in Half-Life 2 but the two Episodes since then have done great strides in giving her depth. That last part of Episode 2 tore my heart out and her acting (both digital and audio) were extremely well done.

I don't think I can speak for Axis Swordarm but I think what he means that emotional investment you get when a character is no long the sum of its parts but instead lives on inside your mind. It's actually quite rare in video games, it's amazing that BioWare's had so many.

....I still sometimes throw KOTOR in because of Canderous and Jolee.

Im not entirely sure but I do think the city changed ever so slightly
act to act. If I remember correctly the city starts out very brillant
and in the sunlight and by the 3rd act its actually on the verge of the
sunset the entire time. I dont know if they we're going for mood with
that too make it feel like a darker time in Kirkwall's history...
maybe... *Shrug*

I'm going to keep an eye out for that now.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 14 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[Axis Swordarm]

Jaduggar wrote...


I wanted examples of characters that were 'real' of course. I already know that you don't believe the DA2 characters are 'real,' so there's no reason to cite them.

I bring up Valve due to the linearity of their game design, but I suppose Uncharted works just as well.
How are the characters in Uncharted 'real' (Yes, I hate that you used that word), when they follow the exact same thing you just criticized?

"The same goes for the supporting cast, they only ever react in ways dictated by plot or worse what is funny to say at a given time.  They're written for moments and not as individuals.  There's no real emotion there because characters are simply telling you their story or acting out a set path that in many cases isn't logical and isn't impacted by anything but the railway line the narrative is on."

Real characters act for what appears to be their own motivations and not for what is blatantly serving the plot.

I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that.  Nathan Drake and his friendships feel natural and not forced, the story flow is actually dictated by this.  The dialogue is also good to the point of being universally enjoyed because it is natural sounding and doesn't rely on the appeal to a certain crowd DA2 does.

Listening to them you get the sense that these are real people and not simply actors spouting their lines or giving exposition.  Some of that is to do with the incredible voice acting but a lot is down to how they are written.

Someone else gave the example of John Marston, again he had a driving factor throughout the game which made you want him to succeed and in many cases the situation screwed you over, but it always had natural reasons in the context of the gameworld and character.

In DA2 we have allusions to **** atrocities in the most ham fisted way possible alongside encounters and events that make no sense in the game world.  There's a deep roads encounter for example that in game world terms is an incredible feat and never mentioned at all, by anyone.

[Jaduggar]

Axis Swordarm wrote...
Real characters act for what appears to be their own motivations and not for what is blatantly serving the plot.

I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that.  Nathan Drake and his friendships feel natural and not forced, the story flow is actually dictated by this.  The dialogue is also good to the point of being universally enjoyed because it is natural sounding and doesn't rely on the appeal to a certain crowd DA2 does.

Listening to them you get the sense that these are real people and not simply actors spouting their lines or giving exposition.  Some of that is to do with the incredible voice acting but a lot is down to how they are written.

Someone else gave the example of John Marston, again he had a driving factor throughout the game which made you want him to succeed and in many cases the situation screwed you over, but it always had natural reasons in the context of the gameworld and character.

In DA2 we have allusions to **** atrocities in the most ham fisted way possible alongside encounters and events that make no sense in the game world.  There's a deep roads encounter for example that in game world terms is an incredible feat and never mentioned at all, by anyone.

I haven't said my stance on anything, yet. Please don't assume such things.

How are the characters in Dragon Age not pursuing their own lives and motivations? I know for that the characters in Uncharted are not completely living out their own lives with their heads stuck underground—that, there, would just be messy, confusing 'writing.'

Could you, just to help me out here, cite concrete examples from both Uncharted and (for contrast) Dragon Age 2 to show this vast different characterization you believe exists between these two games?

Perhaps you have an issue with the transitions and animation in Dragon Age 2. It’s a tricky thing to do—separating the writing and the presentation of writing.

Modifié par Jaduggar, 14 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Cazlee]

This game lacked an "Origin" for Hawke.
Very crappy introduction.
Hawke may as well be one of those sterotypical heroes with selective amnesia.

Modifié par Cazlee, 14 mars 2011 - 07:01 .

[Jaduggar]

Aren't his first years in Kirkwall his 'origin?'

I mean, you might as well argue the origins in DA:O didn't have origins.

Modifié par Jaduggar, 14 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[Cazlee]

The wardens' Origins showed that they had friends and family that loved
them... the Origin also allowed you to develop personal and strong
motivation for finishing the game...

There's no emotional
connection in Hawke's introduction... and you just wander aimlessly not
knowing what the point of the game is.

Modifié par Cazlee, 14 mars 2011 - 07:25 .

[Foolsfolly]

I thought Ostagar and/or Lothering was his origin.

Warrior/Rogue Hawke: From Lothering, fought with the King's Army.
Mage: Hides in Lothering until the Blight forces him to run.

It's even about as long as some of the Origins from DA1 if you count all the way up to joining either the Mercs or the Smugglers.

[philosopherStoned]

Jaduggar wrote...

Aren't his first years in Kirkwall his 'origin?'

I mean, you might as well argue the origins in DA:O didn't have origins.

That's because DA:O is the origin. It's the first game in the series.

[4love]

well i was eager to buy DAO but DA2 IS A MOTHER****ING HACK AND SLASH,SO NOT BUYING AND NOT PLAYING IT I DON'T CARE

[Axis Swordarm]

Jaduggar wrote...
Could you, just to help me out here, cite concrete examples from both Uncharted and (for contrast) Dragon Age 2 to show this vast different characterization you believe exists between these two games?

Perhaps you have an issue with the transitions and animation in Dragon Age 2. It’s a tricky thing to do—separating the writing and the presentation of writing.

This is just from the demo, it shows clunky exposition writing and just plain bad dialogue that permeates the game.  Likewise in terms of Isabella there, like all characters she is not speaking to Hawke, she is describing things to the player in a clumsy way.

This is not a well crafted character.

This sequence is a cutscene from about halfway through Uncharted 2.

In this you can see characters express their own feelings that build character without any exposition.  You know everything you need to know about who these characters are and what they're like by how they act. You may be getting lied to, you may get double crossed but it's all down to solid personal reasons.   It makes the characters more natural, makes them feel like they exist in a world that is very real to them.

[Jaduggar]

Cazlee wrote...

The wardens' Origins showed that they had friends and family that loved them... the Origin also allowed you to develop personal and strong motivation for finishing the game...

There's no emotional connection in Hawke's introduction... and you just wander aimlessly not knowing what the point of the game is.

I guess I can't argue against this as I can't really understand where you're coming from.
I never felt any emotional connection towards my Warden. I also happen to prefer slow-burn stories.

For me, the origins were just some exclusive areas of content to play through.

[enrogae]

While there are other negatives, which I have already mentioned in other posts that I hope Mr. Woo (or someone at Bioware) noticed, I agree with you for the most part. I was attached to the characters in DA:O... I grew to like or dislike them. I hated Loghain with a passion and even on my "good" character couldn't help but kill him. In DA:2 I do not feel anything for any of the characters, not even my own. The story in DA:O flew along a natural and believable, though fantastical, progression. The story in DA:2 is disjointed and lacking in any real driving force. I felt like I was just running around delivering FedEx packages, or going through the MMO-like motions of "go here, kill X, return". The most I can say for it... is it was bland, at best.

What I don't get, is that they seemed/claimed? to be trying to go in more of a ME2 direction. First, ME2 didn't sell as well (to my knowledge, at least) as DA:O. Second, ME2 actually succeeded... for me anyway. I was attached to my Shepard. I was attached to my crew. I felt sorry for Jack. The only conclusion I can reach is that the writing and story for ME2 had to have been better-done.

And I know it's been mentioned a hundred times, and even once before by me, but I can't help but pointing out... the same maps over and over did nothing to help my level of immersion.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Cazlee wrote...

The wardens' Origins showed that they had friends and family that loved them... the Origin also allowed you to develop personal and strong motivation for finishing the game...

There's no emotional connection in Hawke's introduction... and you just wander aimlessly not knowing what the point of the game is.

This. 

+50 approval.

Gaider probably too focus to write his novel that he forget the playesr who suppose to be Hawke ( BioWare emphasis Hawke is "You" in their marketing's quote. ) have no background family to start with, therefore required more guidance/details as in Origins.

Or Varric's shouldn't tell my personal story in the first place due to his third person observation's lack of understanding how my family bond works.

Edit: Spelling

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 14 mars 2011 - 07:24 .

[Axis Swordarm]

Jaduggar wrote...

Aren't his first years in Kirkwall his 'origin?'

I mean, you might as well argue the origins in DA:O didn't have origins.

We're introduced to Hawke on a mountainside fighting random monsters.  Even as someone who played Origins and knowing where Lothering was and what Darkspawn are this was a bad introduction because it told me nothing about Hawke and I didn't care a whit for any of the strangers I was with.

The destruction of Lothering would have made for the perfect introduction to the game and given you the springboard from which you and your family can grow as characters. 

It was a terrible decision to begin the game after the start of the protagonists story.  Sure we're told they're running, but it would have given the game some actual heart to start with the families life in Lothering on the last day.

I get the impression this decision was a gameplay one that trumped story as Laidlaw was proud to say you start fighting within minutes.  It's ridiculous.

[Katzen]

My favourite thing about the dialogue in Origins was it was so unpredictable. You had to be really careful and actually put thought into what you said to your companions or people you met because they acted in refreshingly unstereotypical ways.

In DA:II that's gone and we're back to pigeon-holing companions and the standard good/bad choices.

[TaHol]

Thank you OP for saying everything I was thinking of. I'm just starting the act 2, and I still have no clue why Hawke exist, what is the point of the whole story, and why I'm playing this game. I was thinking that DA:O was meant for people in their 30's, and DA2 obviously for people who are not much over 15. At least in DA:O I knew form the start that my character is on the mission. What is Hawkes mission, I don't know, and I don't even care. I just keep killing respawning bandits in recycled caves. Mind you, I like killing pixels, but for that I have other games. This I bought for the story, and I found there is no story.