131 réponses à ce sujet

[Wowlock]

I intended to ask Arishok's help about the tension but those stupid Fanatics and Mother Petrice......the only sad thing about that was we couldn't kill her ourselves.....

I wouldn't use the extreme force on the city but I guess Qunari didn't saw a better option. And from the looks of the Act 3 , they were right....

Hell I can go as far as and tell ... Aveline and Varric ( also Bethany ) maybe the only sane and stable ones over the years. And make no mistake I took them with me on every mission. Aveline was just a great companion, like a caring big sister with her touching humanly story. And Varric... well who doesn't love him ?

[cglasgow]

And if the qunari were buying and selling their own people to each other, slavery might hold up as a comparison.

Slavery does not require slave trading; it can be hereditary, or caste-based. Although the latter is more commonly called 'serfdom', yes; different words, pretty much the same brand of suck for those on the bottom, tho.

Fair point, and if it turns out the Qunari way of life is just a house of cards, obviously my statements here won't be valid. But the Qunari that we've met and what we have read of their culture in codex entries, as well as all the converts to their religion that we've read about, think of it as the perfect, ordered society that I'm defending here.

Which means exactly nothing, because belief doesn't remotely determine objective reality. If I tried to post a list of every belief system on Earth that was a horrid failure in reality and yet still had millions of fanatical believers who all with total sincerity thought that it was the path to paradise on Earth, this server would crash.

[Red Templar]

cglasgow wrote...
Which means exactly nothing, because belief doesn't remotely determine objective reality. If I tried to post a list of every belief system on Earth that was a horrid failure in reality and yet still had millions of fanatical believers who all with total sincerity thought that it was the path to paradise on Earth, this server would crash.

I get that, I do. But if the Qun is what it appears to be, my argument is 100% valid... at least for what I am trying to achieve with it. If it is not, then my argument will either be less valid or completely wrong. I admit that freely. But we don't know that it isn't, and on the grounds that I'm talking about a theoretical society that we are led to believe exists, I think everything I've said is solid, yeah.

[Northern Sun]

I can't say I like the idea of living in a society where my leaders partner me with someone for the sole purpose of breeding then have my children taken away to be raised by priests.

Modifié par Northern Sun, 14 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

The Qun are a peaceful society less because they lack people who turn against them and more because the people who turn against them tend to leave the society. Kind of like how a Muslim traditionalist's daughter who wanted to walk around with her face uncovered and in mildly revealing clothes wouldn't stay in a Muslim traditionalist society with her face uncovered and in mildly revealing clothers... unless she wanted to deal with having Muslim traditionalists swooping down on her (swooping is... bad).

EDIT: The obligatory disclaimer--not saying anything against Muslims in general, so don't even go there. If you're the sort who plays games that involve magic, you're probably not even close to the sort I refer to. Thank you for not jumping to conclusions about my meaning.

People who go against social rules and norms in less strict societies can stay and cause trouble within those societies, making those societies appear worse. In reality, the only difference is that the social elements don't get as segregated from one another.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 14 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[Grunk]

I can't agree that the Qun is the best way to go, if only because we don't actually know what their culture is, only what has been said. For all we know, there could be a load of political backfighting going on or something. I mean, the Qunari we meet tell us it's good, but really, they're the military and the proselytizing faith; I wouldn't expect the Crusaders way back when to go "Yeah, Christ isn't all that hot."

But I don't really wanna draw real world examples like that. Suffice to say that I'm unwilling to take the few examples of Qunari outside of their environment entirely at their word. I mean, Sten and the Arishok might really love their country and think it's great, but it could be crap in actuality.

I did sympathize with the Arishok's frustration, though. But if it was really that bad, I still fail to see why he didn't just camp outside the city or something. With all the time they spent there, they could've chopped down a bunch of wood and built themselves a crude fort or something.

[Wowlock]

Northern Sun wrote...

I can't say I like the idea of living in a society where my leaders partner me with someone for the sole purpose of breeding then have my children taken away to be raised by priests.

Huh , I guess parents of mages has the common feeling about this Bolded out part :innocent:

[Nathan Redgrave]

Wowlock wrote...
Huh , I guess parents of mages has the common feeling about this Bolded out part :innocent:

At least those mages don't have to deal with leashes, face-obscuring masks, control rods, and having their LIPS STICHED TOGETHER.

[cglasgow]

At the risk of derailing the discussion, now I have a funny mental image of dealing with the Anders problem by convincing him that the qunari treatment of their mages is even more unjust than the Chantry's treatment of human mages, and therefore a total commitment to Justice means that the Qun should be his primary target, and the Chantry only on the list after he's done down south.

That ought to keep him well out of our hair for a while.

[cglasgow]

Hey, admiring the qunari -- as a fictional creation -- is one thing.   I do that too.

Agreeing with the Qun -- as a philosophy -- is something else entirely.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Northern Sun wrote...

I can't say I like the idea of living in a society where my leaders partner me with someone for the sole purpose of breeding then have my children taken away to be raised by priests.

Well, that's largely because you're of a culture in which your leaders don't partner you someone for the sole purpose of breeding, nor were you removed from your parents.

[Nathan Redgrave]

cglasgow wrote...

At the risk of derailing the discussion, now I have a funny mental image of dealing with the Anders problem by convincing him that the qunari treatment of their mages is even more unjust than the Chantry's treatment of human mages, and therefore a total commitment to Justice means that the Qun should be his primary target, and the Chantry only on the list after he's done down south.

That ought to keep him well out of our hair for a while.

It wouldn't just keep him out of your hair, it would get him killed before he could do anything worth thinking about.

[DieHigh2012]

Dileos wrote...

To be honest every major faction had me wishing for a "screw this, I'm going back to Ferelden" line.

Seriously, Hawke would have been much better off just moving to Denirim with the cash he got after the blight ended.

^this

*In my best Cartman voice*

"Screw you guys, I'm going home"

[cglasgow]

After having seen act 3, I'll agree; ask Merrill if she wants to go restoring her mirror around the Brecilian forest, load Mama on the boat, tell the Grey Wardens to forward Bethany/Carver's mail to Denerim, and haul ass. It'll be tough leaving Varric and the gang behind, but they're grownups, they'll manage.

[DieHigh2012]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

At the risk of derailing the discussion, now I have a funny mental image of dealing with the Anders problem by convincing him that the qunari treatment of their mages is even more unjust than the Chantry's treatment of human mages, and therefore a total commitment to Justice means that the Qun should be his primary target, and the Chantry only on the list after he's done down south.

That ought to keep him well out of our hair for a while.

It wouldn't just keep him out of your hair, it would get him killed before he could do anything worth thinking about.

Can we hope for such a blessing?

[Evil Asch]

I haven't played awakening yet but as far as I know we never see the Qun'ari in their own land where they are fully dominant. All we have to go on are Sten and the Kirkwall faction of Qu'nari. It is premature to declare the Qun a wise and wonderful path without viewing its impact on the entire society.

Another point, say hypothetically that the Qu'nari expand and conquer all of Thedas and the lands are brought into line blah blah. What will the warriors do then? Hunt rebels and criminals? That's pretty pathetic compared to empire building. Take away any caste's social function and then what?

And conflating/combining meritism with the rigid Qun is a disservice.

[JamieCOTC]

The Arishok made some good points, but the Qun's batsh*t crazy caste system is a greater evil.

[cglasgow]

And as Robert A. Heinlein once said: "The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort."

[SnakeHelah]

Heh, The Arishok was right, sure, but the Qun is like some kind of communism or something seriously! "everyone has their role" blablah

[cglasgow]

Capt. Obvious wrote...

"To your limited understanding." - Arishok

That's both Appeal To Ignorance Fallacy and attempting to grant the Arishok a free Omniscient Morality License; i.e., logically invalid argument.

You do realize that the Arishok's argument boils down to nothing but 'Because I say so!', right?   That's how a three-year-old argues.    Yeah, I'm not nominating the Arishok to join the ranks of great philosophers any time soon.

Modifié par cglasgow, 14 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[TobiTobsen]

SnakeHelah wrote...

Heh, The Arishok was right, sure, but the Qun is like some kind of communism or something seriously! "everyone has their role" blablah

Yeah. Communism, but actually working communism IF we belive the codex and the Qunari themself, and not the ****ty failing socialism that calls itself "communism" in our world.

And in my opinion sounds working communism much better than the crappy way of life the other countries of Thedas offer. Just ask the Rivaini. If I interpreted the codex right, they even rebelled when the Chantry tried to "reintegrate" them. They seem to like the Qun.