131 réponses à ce sujet

[cglasgow]

Red Templar wrote...

The little guys are folks like Ketojan, who stoicly choses death in duty to the Qun over freedom

To be more accurate, he chooses 'death because my handler got killed and my culture's rules state that any mage who is out from under supervision for any length of time at all isn't even guilty until proven innocent, they're just guilty period'.

Let's not whitewash 'em.

[Myrmedus]

Also, a funny point - when I first saw a Sten Qunari I was concerned - I thought it was THE Sten until I realized by the second one it was simply a "rank".

[Red Templar]

cglasgow wrote...
To be more accurate, he chooses 'death because my handler got killed and my culture's rules state that any mage who is out from under supervision for any length of time at all isn't even guilty until proven innocent, they're just guilty period'.

Let's not whitewash 'em.

Not exactly sure how I whitewashed anything. Such was what his culture held was his duty. And, dutifully, he did it. For us to morally quibble over it is a different matter from the fact that Ketojan, as a member of said society's lowest of the low, would rather die for said duty than live and be free. It implies either complete intdroctrination, or actually being content with his miserable lot in life and his service to society, or a mixture of both.

[Dakim Dragco]

Replieng mostly to the OP and 1st pages:

I think we can see that despite all moral debate, all parties involved in this games plot have at some point been right, but at others been completely wrong. Why? ............. Because we are indeviduals (sorry for spelling) who have other idees about right, wrong, and what people deserve at basis.

On alot of thing i agreed with the arishok, but so did i agree with the templars and mages in other points. In the end i feel all of them were right in there belief, but wrong in their action. Its a shame we dont have a third option, one were hawke doesnt take a side.

[cglasgow]

Red Templar wrote...

Not exactly sure how I whitewashed anything. Such was what his culture held was his duty.

Because the devil is in the details.   'Doing your duty' is not a blanket defense; it depends on what your duty was.   Saying that duty excuses everything, without qualification, sends you down a road that (Godwin alert) ends at "We were just following orders!", Nuremberg style.

'Duty' is a strong word, and generally a good word.   But its a word whose meaning changes depending on what your duty is towards.    Likewise with the word 'culture'; that's a word that's been used to justify both good things and total atrocities in history, so, when somebody says 'its my cultural values!', the next question is '... and those values are, exactly?'

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:13 .

[Legbiter]

I'd lay a substantial part of the blame on the Viscount. Well-meaning but completely ineffectual beyond proper dinner etiquette by the looks of it. As head of the Kirkwall nobility he should have taken concrete steps to kill all the Qunari as soon as they showed up in the numbers they did. At the very least he should have put plans in place to liquidate them after an ultimatum (with free shipping thrown in) to leave Kirkwall.

And he should have had an iron grip on that brat of his, he should have been a squire at some noble lord's court in another city in the Free Marches and/or strategically married off to cement some alliance.

[cglasgow]

If I remember what the Viscount said correctly, he had virtually no real political power beyond choosing the menu for dinner; his sole usefulness was to act as an arbiter between all the various power factions of town, each of which had their own agenda. He could try to balance the mess, but couldn't hope to steer it.

Hell, the templars flat-up murdered the last viscount and appointed this one as a figurehead ruler!

[TobiTobsen]

cglasgow wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

The little guys are folks like Ketojan, who stoicly choses death in duty to the Qun over freedom

To be more accurate, he chooses 'death because my handler got killed and my culture's rules state that any mage who is out from under supervision for any length of time at all isn't even guilty until proven innocent, they're just guilty period'.

Let's not whitewash 'em.

But he still chooses to obey the rules of the Qun without being forced. He kills himself even after Hawke tells him he could just become a Tal'Vashoth, because he thinks it's the right thing.

And maybe the rule you quoted isn't that stupid. Before he commits suicide he gives you his trinket. A trinket that buffs blood magic. I believe that he thinks that he is to dangerous to walk around without somebody to watch over him.

[Myrmedus]

I felt so sorry for that Qunari, it was really sad watching him kill himself. It was one of the few occasions in the game I declined to let a character do as they wish (though he did it anyway!)

Modifié par Myrmedus, 15 mars 2011 - 12:18 .

[cglasgow]

TobiTobsen wrote...

But he still chooses to obey the rules of the Qun without being forced. He kills himself even after Hawke tells him he could just become a Tal'Vashoth, because he thinks it's the right thing.

Yes, so?   The logic of 'This thing can't be so horrible; if it was, nobody would be loyal to it!" is totally flawed.   History is full of people who have remained loyal to horrible things and horrible leaders, even when they're totally being crapped on.    Cripes, look at North Korea right now.

And maybe the rule you quoted isn't that stupid. Before he commits suicide he gives you his trinket. A trinket that buffs blood magic. I believe that he thinks that he is to dangerous to walk around without somebody to watch over him.

He did have somebody to watch over him.  His new handler was right there.   That was the guy who was killing him!

No, the qunari rules on mages make Meredith look sane. 

PS: And that's before we even get into the part where the Qun says you have to die too, just because you stood next to him.

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[Myrmedus]

Yes that is one place I'd agree with you on the Qunari...their treatment of Mages is disgusting.

[Red Templar]

cglasgow wrote...
Because the devil is in the details.   'Doing your duty' is not a blanket defense; it depends on what your duty was.   Saying that duty excuses everything, without qualification, sends you down a road that (Godwin alert) ends at "We were just following orders!", Nuremberg style.

'Duty' is a strong word, and generally a good word.   But its a word whose meaning changes depending on what your duty is towards.    Likewise with the word 'culture'; that's a word that's been used to justify both good things and total atrocities in history, so, when somebody says 'its my cultural values!', the next question is '... and those values are, exactly?'

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying "It was his duty, therefore the right thing", nor was I saying "cultural relativism hoorah!". Not that I think he didn't do the right thing - sacrificing himself to nullify any risk he might pose to others doesn't hurt anyone, and certainly seems noble. But what I was getting at with bringing him up is "here is a guy at the very bottom of this social system, and his choice is to give his life for that system even when other options are available to him". It doesn't make the qunari way the right way, but it establishes that a) their way isn't just embraced by guys at the top, like the Arishok, and even the guys who get are the worst off in their social order genuinly have belief that is the best thing for everyone. In reaction to your implied point that the only people who can be happy with the qunari way of life are the guys at the top, not the guys at the bottom.

And yes, just because he believes it doesn't mean it is right, people can be tricked into believing things that are bad for them. But his actions show that the qunari way of life - right or wrong or cabbage - creates a certain harmony that even the lowest of the low can believe in. Therefore it is valid from their POV. Therefore it might also be valid for others who might come around to that POV.

Modifié par Red Templar, 15 mars 2011 - 12:23 .

[cglasgow]

*points up*

Like I said, history is full of examples where peons remained loyal even when the system was totally ****ting on their heads; therefore, pointing to Ketojan's loyalty proves nothing.

Especially since history is also full of examples that if you catch people young enough and brainwash them, you can make them believe the craziest things, even to the point of suicide; and the qunari take Saarebas in as small children.

As for their human and elven converts; anybody in Kirkwall who goes to the qunari compound is somebody who has already decided that human society has no place they want to accept.   With that in mind, its hardly surprising that they're happier about their new home; they've already self-selected for a massive dissatisfaction with their parent culture!   That doesn't prove anything about how all the people who didn't choose to convert would also be happier under the Qun, because, y'know, I sorta doubt they would be.

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[TobiTobsen]

Was the Arvaarad there to kill him? I thought he was assigned as the new "supervisor" of Ketojan after he lost his old one.

Not that it would excuse the... "control rod" thing he used on him.

[Red Templar]

cglasgow wrote...

*points up*

Like I said, history is full of examples where peons remained loyal even when the system was totally ****ting on their heads; therefore, pointing to Ketojan's loyalty proves nothing.

Especially since history is also full of examples that if you catch people young enough and brainwash them, you can make them believe the craziest things, even to the point of suicide; and the qunari take Saarebas in as small children.

Made an edit to address that, but to clarify. Him believing in it doesn't mean it is right - it means that he believes in it, even to his own disadvantage, for the sake of a social harmony that is more consequential than his own life. Regardless of right or wrong... it is valid from the perspective that places rule of law and the wellbeing of the everyman before individualism.

[edit] and when I spoke about human converts earlier, I mean the rivaini (I misspoke. Not Rivaini - the other converts from the lands the Andrastians reoccupied) converts who the Chantry ended up killing because they wouldn't renounce their new faith in the Qun, and the various other folks Genetivi mentioned.

Modifié par Red Templar, 15 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[Legbiter]

cglasgow wrote...

If I remember what the Viscount said correctly, he had virtually no real political power beyond choosing the menu for dinner; his sole usefulness was to act as an arbiter between all the various power factions of town, each of which had their own agenda. He could try to balance the mess, but couldn't hope to steer it.

Hell, the templars flat-up murdered the last viscount and appointed this one as a figurehead ruler!

Oh, Maker, you're saying the Kirkwallers are like some 15th. century Italian city nobility.

That would explain it.

[Doc Faust]

Sonris89 wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

The Qun are no better than the Templars, they ultimately want to impose rigid order and control on society. I'm not much of an anarchist but both groups made me want to buy a Guy Fawkes mask and a black chapeau and start blowing up large parts of Kirkwall.

It is substantially different though. The templars impose order on a minority of society for the greater good and for the wellbeing of the rest of the populace. The qunari don't just impose rigid order - they convert, they improve, they change society to the point where it works without the need for tyranny; what do you need heavy handed force for in a culture where everyone willingly conforms? Sure, there is precious little freedom and flexibility in it... but individualism is a small price to pay for a society that achieves perfect rule of law without corruption or abuse. People who convert to the Qun are happier for it, and their society truly seems to be about the good of the whole and unfailing honour. A society where even the lowest of the low is honoured and respected for playing his role in the Qun is more noble than the ambitious, cutthroat culture that humans have cultivated.

The Qunari culture is very stern, but there is a certain nobility of spirit and refreshing honesty in it that I find appealing.

Are they honest? they seem to enjoy lieing by ommission alot and I think they can do anything if the Qun (their leader caste) tells them too.

The Qun is not their leader caste. It is their religion. When they speak of "Demands of the Qun" they speak of things their honor requires them to do, not demands made by people.

Qunari are not ruled by people, they are ruled by principle, organized by people.

I find them compelling. It might be interesting to see how the culture evolves, if, indeed, it can, given its underpinnings. Also important to note that the only Qunari we have ever seen are their career soldiers or rebels drawn from their career soldiers. These people are neccessarily going to be stricter and more stern than their civilian population.

Further, we only ever see them on duity. Yes, the Qun defines peoples professions for life, but life is about considerably more than what you do for a living-- Sten's dream from the fade sequence of Origins suggests that Quarni have friendships, and warm ones at that, just as surely as humans, elves and Dwarves do. I daresay they have hobbies as well.

The Qun's treatment of mages, however, damns them. Especially since it puts the lie to the idea that all those of the Qun are honored-- perhaps Serabaas are supposed to be honored, but the group sent to reclaim the one you find most certainly does not respect them.

They are an interesting group, but like all the groups set fourth in the game, they are flawed.

[cglasgow]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Was the Arvaarad there to kill him?

Yup! 

You apparently picked the 'He must be free' option and killed the Arvaraad before he did anything.   I went the other way, handed Ketojan over as soon as they asked, and the Arvaraad put down Ketojan on the spot and then said 'That's what we always do to Saarebas who are away from their handlers, even for just a little while.  Because they might possibly be corrupted, they have to die.'

Then the Arvaraad tried to kill me because I might be 'corrupted' too, because I'd stood next to an unmonitored Saarebas.  Paranoid friggin' bunch, the qunari.

Look, when I said their anti-mage anti-abomination paranoia made Meredith look normal, I was not kidding.

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[Red Templar]

cglasgow wrote...

Yup! 

You apparently picked the 'He must be free' option and killed the Arvaraad before he did anything.   I went the other way, and the Arvaraad put down Ketojan on the spot and then said 'That's what we always do to Saarebas who are away from their handlers, even for just a little while.  Because they might possibly be corrupted, they have to die.'

Then the Arvaraad tried to kill me because I might be 'corrupted' too, because I'd stood next to an unmonitored Saarebas.  Paranoid friggin' bunch, the qunari.

The way I remember it, Ketojan mumbled something, and then the Arvaraad said something to the effect of "are you certain?" before killing him. Meaning there was a certain amount of choice involved, and that choice was Ketojan's. And then of course Ketojan was all grateful and pious and honoured Hawke for leading well and turning him over to the Qunari, etc.

Don't call me out for whitewash and then willfully try to blacken things yourself. One's as bad as the other

Fair enough to the reply below. My memory of the wording wasn't that specific.

Modifié par Red Templar, 15 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[cglasgow]

Yeah, the choice was whether to be executed there or when they got back to the qunari compound.

Remember that the Arvaraad's response was 'Very well, then we will do it here'... as opposed to 'Very well, then we will do it'.

Basically, the only choice Ketojan had was whether he wanted to just get it over with, or if he wanted whatever ceremony they normally did back at base.

I think also that Ketojan was asking for the chance to say good-bye to you, given that the Arvaraad unlocks his voice long enough for him to do so.

But remember what the Arvaraad and Ketojan say repeatedly, in both endings; the reason that Ketojan wants to die is because the Qun says that he has to die.    And no, that's not me 'blackening' it; that's what Ketojan actually says, in the 'Ketojan kills himself after you kill the Arvaraad' ending.  

'I do not want to die; I want to live by the Qun.'
'But the Qun says you have to die!'
'Yes.  Is this so hard to understand?'

Which means there's no doubt about what the Qun prescribes for a Saarebas that has been outside supervision, even temporarily; death, death, death.

Modifié par cglasgow, 15 mars 2011 - 12:40 .

[Fishy]

The Qun = Scientology

[Vandicus]

No, the Arishok goes ballistic just like Anders, and the Qunari whole society is totalitarian and crazy.

[TobiTobsen]

cglasgow wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Was the Arvaarad there to kill him?

Yup! 

You apparently picked the 'He must be free' option and killed the Arvaraad before he did anything.   I went the other way, handed Ketojan over as soon as they asked, and the Arvaraad put down Ketojan on the spot and then said 'That's what we always do to Saarebas who are away from their handlers, even for just a little while.  Because they might possibly be corrupted, they have to die.'

Then the Arvaraad tried to kill me because I might be 'corrupted' too, because I'd stood next to an unmonitored Saarebas.  Paranoid friggin' bunch, the qunari.

Look, when I said their anti-mage anti-abomination paranoia made Meredith look normal, I was not kidding.

Yeah, after he forced Ketojan to his knees I asked him if someone like Bethany looked dangerous to him. He wasn't pleased to discover that I was runing around with even more unmonitored "Saarebas" than just Ketojan.

And you're right. The Qunari seem to be scared ****less (if thats even possible for a qunari ) of uncontrolled mages. A POV I can understand, but like the Kirkwall Templars they enforce it to harsh.
Nonetheless I was pretty surprised that Ketojan was even able to speak. Didn't Sten told us that the Qunari cut the tongue of their mages out?

[cglasgow]

Actually, I think he said they sew their lips shut or something. Apparently that's been retconned into some kind of magical gag, that the Arvaraad has a control rod/switch for.

*shrugs*

[Doc Faust]

TobiTobsen wrote...

cglasgow wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Was the Arvaarad there to kill him?

Yup! 

You apparently picked the 'He must be free' option and killed the Arvaraad before he did anything.   I went the other way, handed Ketojan over as soon as they asked, and the Arvaraad put down Ketojan on the spot and then said 'That's what we always do to Saarebas who are away from their handlers, even for just a little while.  Because they might possibly be corrupted, they have to die.'

Then the Arvaraad tried to kill me because I might be 'corrupted' too, because I'd stood next to an unmonitored Saarebas.  Paranoid friggin' bunch, the qunari.

Look, when I said their anti-mage anti-abomination paranoia made Meredith look normal, I was not kidding.

Yeah, after he forced Ketojan to his knees I asked him if someone like Bethany looked dangerous to him. He wasn't pleased to discover that I was runing around with even more unmonitored "Saarebas" than just Ketojan.

And you're right. The Qunari seem to be scared ****less (if thats even possible for a qunari ) of uncontrolled mages. A POV I can understand, but like the Kirkwall Templars they enforce it to harsh.
Nonetheless I was pretty surprised that Ketojan was even able to speak. Didn't Sten told us that the Qunari cut the tongue of their mages out?

That might have been ret-conned. The real issue is that they stitch the lips shut: Ketojan shouldn't be able to open his mouth (you can see the stitching). He can.

Its all very confused.

Modifié par Doc Faust, 15 mars 2011 - 12:52 .