224 réponses à ce sujet

[darkwonders]

It's less that people think this is a terrible game and more that they had higher hopes that Bioware would keep one game from going mainstream. I can't fault people for wishing this game was just a more refined DA:O.

But then again, Bioware has been clear with their intentions on how the game would be. There were no surprises here. It's rather silly for people getting up in arms after the game is released when everything about the game was mentioned before release.

[Prongsys Girl]

I'll be the first to admit that there are some issues with DA2 (mostly in continuity with DAO: Awakening, but I really like DA2! I thought that Origins was more epic in scale and I love the little stuff in the epilogue, but I think that DA2 was way more emotionally charged - it was extremely character driven. I feel like DAO was more scenario driven (ie. everything was about people responding to the Blight rather than the scenario responding to characters - don't know if that made sense). That said, I probably couldn't pick one game to over the other. I do miss origin stories tho! I love playing beautiful dwarf commoners like the one to the left.

[Fast Jimmy]

darkwonders wrote...

It's less that people think this is a terrible game and more that they had higher hopes that Bioware would keep one game from going mainstream. I can't fault people for wishing this game was just a more refined DA:O.

But then again, Bioware has been clear with their intentions on how the game would be. There were no surprises here. It's rather silly for people getting up in arms after the game is released when everything about the game was mentioned before release.

I completely disagree with this point of view.

Its not the gamer's responsibility to keep up with every developer interview or statement before buying a game. If a new direction and feel of a game is not conveyed in the trailer video or as part of a commercial, but rather information that could only be obtained by doing specific research on it, it is by no means the consumer's responsibility to understand that there would be a huge variance between a first game's iteration and its second.

If Assassin's Creed 2 had no assassinations, because focus groups found that murder and violence weren't marketable to their target audience of eight year olds, you wouldn't blame fans of the original game for making an outcry.

That's an extreme, over -the-top example,  but its the same premise. Besides, the "new direction" the devs talked about in those interviews made it sound like it WASN'T a new direction, but a refinement of DAO. They touted the combat as quicker, but still very tactical. They touted choice as a big component, when it wasn't. They said the game had Companion relationships that were deep, but which only let  you have five conversations over the course of ten years.

None of the deficiencies were advertised or even acknoledged in the pre-release information. So you can't blame the consumer for not liking it and wishing they had stuck with the DAO formula.

[Zanallen]

Really? Did this 11 month old thread really need to be necro'd?

[chunkyman]

Zanallen wrote...

Really? Did this 11 month old thread really need to be necro'd?

11 months from now I'm going to return here and quote this. 

[Masako52]

Lots of people love DA2. It's generated a strong fanbase, despite criticism. So no, OP is not alone.

Now this thread can go back to the mausoleum it cam from.

[gaurdian9sunshine]

 I really liked the combat better in 2 actually. In origins, the mages basic attack was really slow. I really like Dragon Age two, story and all.

[Imrahil_]

Masako52 wrote...
Lots of people love DA2. It's generated a strong fanbase, despite criticism. So no, OP is not alone.

No, that's demonstrably wrong. It sold less than half of the original, so it clearly weakened the fanbase, even if you assume all the DA2 purchasers liked it, which is also demonstrably untrue.

DA2 lost over half the fanbase, & that continues to get worse as DA:O outsells DA2 to this day.  So, let's say DA:O sold a very conservative 4 million & generously say that DA2 sold 2 million, 'cause it makes the math easy.  Granted, DA:O is a good deal higher & DA2 is likely a bit lower, but let's go with that.

Even if every DA2 player was also a DA:O player, it lost 2 million players from the fanbase.  So, just based on that, DA2 is a weak fanbase, because of math, & that's assuming every DA2 purchaser actually liked DA2 (we know that's not the case - it's at best split).  So, weaker fanbase is obvious.

But, certainly, not every DA2 buyer was a DA:O player, right?  Which means that for every new DA2 player added, that's an additional DA:O player lost, yes?  Because of math.  Let's say it added 500,000 new players.  That now means it lost 2.5 million+ players from the original game!  2.5 million customers lost!  And for every new customer you'd like to claim over 500,000, that means it lost an additional player from the original, making it even worse.

That's... well... I mean, after searching for an appropriate term, I gotta settle on *weak*.  Certainly not strong.  Weak.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 11 février 2012 - 03:38 .

[Plaintiff]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
Lots of people love DA2. It's generated a strong fanbase, despite criticism. So no, OP is not alone.

No, that's demonstrably wrong. It sold less than half of the original, so it clearly weakened the fanbase, even if you assume all the DA2 purchasers liked it, which is also demonstrably untrue.

DA2 lost over half the fanbase, & that continues to get worse as DA:O outsells DA2 to this day.  So, let's say DA:O sold a very conservative 4 million & generously say that DA2 sold 2 million, 'cause it makes the math easy.  Granted, DA:O is a good deal higher & DA2 is likely a bit lower, but let's go with that.

Even if every DA2 player was also a DA:O player, it lost 2 million players from the fanbase.  So, just based on that, DA2 is a weak fanbase, because of math, & that's assuming every DA2 purchaser actually liked DA2 (we know that's not the case - it's at best split).  So, weaker fanbase is obvious.

But, certainly, not every DA2 buyer was a DA:O player, right?  Which means that for every new DA2 player added, that's an additional DA:O player lost, yes?  Because of math.  Let's say it added 500,000 new players.  That now means it lost 2.5 million+ players from the original game!  2.5 million customers lost!  And for every new customer you'd like to claim over 500,000, that means it lost an additional player from the original, making it even worse.

That's... well... I mean, after searching for an appropriate term, I gotta settle on *weak*.  Certainly not strong.  Weak.

Sales numbers are not an accurate reflection of a game's quality or its fanbase. Generally, when people don't buy a sequel to something, it's because they disliked the first installment.

Origins continues to sell well, but that doesn't mean that everyone who plays it likes it or even finishes it. Awakening and other DLC for Origins sold a pathetic amount, which indicates that a siginficant chunk of people simply were not interested in continuing the story of DA:O.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 11 février 2012 - 04:57 .

[TEWR]

Sales numbers are not an accurate reflection of a game's quality or its fanbase. Generally, when people don't buy a sequel to something, it's because they disliked the first installment.

Or you know, when a recession is going on and unemployment is pretty high priorities are acted upon.

"Buy food or buy DAII? I'll buy food."

The fact of the matter is that what generally happens is irrelevant to right now. That whole generally schtick applies when most of society isn't in the ****heap.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2012 - 05:16 .

[Lasien]

Liked it. Had some (easily fixable) problems. I even like (gasp!) the new art style and the new elves!!!

[Masako52]

Imrahil_ wrote...

Masako52 wrote...
Lots of people love DA2. It's generated a strong fanbase, despite criticism. So no, OP is not alone.

No, that's demonstrably wrong. It sold less than half of the original, so it clearly weakened the fanbase, even if you assume all the DA2 purchasers liked it, which is also demonstrably untrue.

DA2 lost over half the fanbase, & that continues to get worse as DA:O outsells DA2 to this day.  So, let's say DA:O sold a very conservative 4 million & generously say that DA2 sold 2 million, 'cause it makes the math easy.  Granted, DA:O is a good deal higher & DA2 is likely a bit lower, but let's go with that.

Even if every DA2 player was also a DA:O player, it lost 2 million players from the fanbase.  So, just based on that, DA2 is a weak fanbase, because of math, & that's assuming every DA2 purchaser actually liked DA2 (we know that's not the case - it's at best split).  So, weaker fanbase is obvious.

But, certainly, not every DA2 buyer was a DA:O player, right?  Which means that for every new DA2 player added, that's an additional DA:O player lost, yes?  Because of math.  Let's say it added 500,000 new players.  That now means it lost 2.5 million+ players from the original game!  2.5 million customers lost!  And for every new customer you'd like to claim over 500,000, that means it lost an additional player from the original, making it even worse.

That's... well... I mean, after searching for an appropriate term, I gotta settle on *weak*.  Certainly not strong.  Weak.

That has little to do with the fanbase itself. There are any number of reasons DA2 didn't sell as well as DAO, first being that sequels don't usually sell as well as originals. But again, that's not at all what I was referring to - if you browse Deviantart, fanfiction websites, fandom forums, even places like 4chan, etc., you'll see that DA2 has indeed generated a huge crowd of loyal fans who put effort into churning new ideas, discussions and fanworks. And this fandom is a lot larger than many more "successful" video games. The point is that DA2 did leave an impression on a lot of people, and those fans actively participate in the fandom.

Frankly, your "math" isn't a good indicator of fanbase. Some games sell very well but have no "fanbase" at all. And I don't know why you're comparing it to DAO - I never did nor made any claim that DA2 sold more games. I said Dragon Age has a very strong fanbase. And it's demonstratably true.

[TEWR]

I said Dragon Age has a very strong fanbase. And it's demonstratably true

Technically you said DA2 has a strong fanbase despite the backlash.

That's not the same thing as saying the series itself has a strong fanbase.

[Imrahil_]

Plaintiff wrote...
Sales numbers are not an accurate reflection of a game's quality or its fanbase. Generally, when people don't buy a sequel to something, it's because they disliked the first installment.

Oh, wow, no.  Just no.

I mean, you are a joke, no one takes you seriously, sure, most people understand that, but even *you* don't generally offer such crazy, baseless theories.  You're seriously trying to claim that DA:O was *disliked*?

DA:O won awards.  DA:O has high ratings on any scale, on any rating system, on any board you choose, in any arena you'd care to look at.  If you want to make such a wild, baseless, unsupported claim, you surely need to provide evidence for it.  DA:O was *disliked*?  That's a ridiculous claim to make, completely unsupported by any evidence.  Wildly untrue.  Hilariously wrong.  Literally LOL worthy.

Thank you.  I haven't laughed at a post this much in quite a while.

[Imrahil_]

Masako52 wrote...
There are any number of reasons DA2 didn't sell as well as DAO, first being that sequels don't usually sell as well as originals.

That's simply wrong.  Try again.  Mass Effect 2, The Witcher 2, & Skyrim disagree.
 

But again, that's not at all what I was referring to - if you browse Deviantart, fanfiction websites, fandom forums, even places like 4chan, etc., you'll see that DA2 has indeed generated a huge crowd of loyal fans who put effort into churning new ideas, discussions and fanworks. And this fandom is a lot larger than many more "successful" video games.

No. Are you now claiming 4chan likes DA2?  No, sorry.  Go to any gaming forum & ask what they think about DA2.  Seriously, go do it, now.  It's a laughingstock of the internet.  I have no doubt you could find some fanfic site that likes it, but check out any *gaming* forum.  It doesn't even need to be an RPG forum.  DA2 is a laughingstock.

You could even start a post that supports DA2, you'll get flooded with posts that say it sucks.  Try the same with ME2, TW2, or Skyrim.  You'll see the difference.
 

The point is that DA2 did leave an impression on a lot of people...

Well, that's true.  It did leave an impression.

Frankly, your "math" isn't a good indicator of fanbase. Some games sell very well but have no "fanbase" at all. And I don't know why you're comparing it to DAO - I never did nor made any claim that DA2 sold more games. I said Dragon Age has a very strong fanbase. And it's demonstratably true.

Well, ok, fair enough.  If you want to count the DA:O fans among the fanbase, then yes, it has a strong fansbase.  The only strong fanbase DA2 has is the vast majority of gamers that strongly think it's a joke.  Sorry.  That's just a fact.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 11 février 2012 - 08:09 .

[Imrahil_]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Or you know, when a recession is going on and unemployment is pretty high priorities are acted upon.

"Buy food or buy DAII? I'll buy food."

The fact of the matter is that what generally happens is irrelevant to right now. That whole generally schtick applies when most of society isn't in the ****heap.

No offense (to immediately differentiate from my previous posts), but that's backwards.  During a recession, cheap recreation purchases actually go up.  Games, comic books, sports cards, DVD's... all go up.  See here:

http://www.pcworld.c...ys_nielsen.html

The idea is that people look for recreational items that provide a higher bang for the buck.  $60 for 100 hours of gameplay?  Cheap, compared to what they would spend money on in boom times.  People look for ways to take their minds off their situation.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 11 février 2012 - 07:50 .

[alex90c]

Hey Plaintiff, you should go to the somethingawful forums and make a thread about why you like DA2 so much, they'll definitely agree with you there.

[Masako52]

Imrahil_ wrote...

No. Are you now claiming 4chan likes DA2?  No, sorry.  Go to any gaming forum & ask what they think about DA2.  Seriously, go do it, now.  It's a laughingstock of the internet.  I have no doubt you could find some fanfic site that likes it, but check out any *gaming* forum.  It doesn't even need to be an RPG forum.  DA2 is a laughingstock.

And no, that's not true. I participate in DA2 fandom, so I'm pretty sure I have a better idea of how big it is than you do. (and lol, I've participated in pro-DA2 threads on 4chan, so um, fail? 4chan is hardly a single collective opinion.) It's a laughingstock to people who are convinced it deserves to be a laughingstock and no more. Listen, I don't care if you don't like DA2. I don't care if lots of people don't like DA2 - and I never denied that the game doesn't have a lot of critics. But honestly you seem to be trying to speak for the Internet and deny something that exists and flourishes - and that's a DA2 fandom. Seriously, some of the haters on this board seem to have a vendetta against the game, for goodness sake, and can't seem to comprehend that a lot of people legitimately love and enjoy the game.

And as far as sequels go, there can be sequels that do better than originals, sure. But this is also simple math - with games that have a connected storyline, most people who play the sequels have played the originals, you have less people that go out and buy sequels, especially when the original is still a very new game. But this is so very beyond the point I'm making here.

DA2 has a strong Internet fanbase. What I said is completely true. Fans of the series have a lot of very active outlets online, and it's pretty stupid/ignorant/petty to pretend that doesn't exist. A lot of people do like the game, so the OP hardly has to feel isolated about it.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Masako52 wrote...

And no, that's not true. I participate in DA2 fandom, so I'm pretty sure I have a better idea of how big it is than you do. (and lol, I've participated in pro-DA2 threads on 4chan, so um, fail? 4chan is hardly a single collective opinion.) It's a laughingstock to people who are convinced it deserves to be a laughingstock and no more. Listen, I don't care if you don't like DA2. I don't care if lots of people don't like DA2 - and I never denied that the game doesn't have a lot of critics. But honestly you seem to be trying to speak for the Internet and deny something that exists and flourishes - and that's a DA2 fandom. Seriously, some of the haters on this board seem to have a vendetta against the game, for goodness sake, and can't seem to comprehend that a lot of people legitimately love and enjoy the game.

And as far as sequels go, there can be sequels that do better than originals, sure. But this is also simple math - with games that have a connected storyline, most people who play the sequels have played the originals, you have less people that go out and buy sequels, especially when the original is still a very new game. But this is so very beyond the point I'm making here.

DA2 has a strong Internet fanbase. What I said is completely true. Fans of the series have a lot of very active outlets online, and it's pretty stupid/ignorant/petty to pretend that doesn't exist. A lot of people do like the game, so the OP hardly has to feel isolated about it.

You know what else has a vociferous fanbase, despite being the laughingstock of most of the internet? Sonic the Hedgehog. Just sayin'.

[Ivucci]

Hardly.

I only finished DA2 three/four weeks ago (various real life and other issues got in the way). I had been initially put off by its bad reputation (although, if you actually asked me *where* had I got this impression, I wouldn't be able to tell) but when I finally got my hads on it and started playing... I loved it.

Now, two playthroughs later, I am more critical and I start seeing the flaws (reading this forum is largely to blame , but I do remember very clearly that my first reaction was Wow (the very good sort of Wow). For many reasons. I'm still in the "I love the game" camp.

Edited to say that I stopped caring a long time ago if something is a laughingstock of the internet. I trust myself enough to assume that when I like something, it can't be complete rubbish. And not just in videogames. I'm not saying this to dismiss the negative response, though - it's somehow fascinating to see how much opinions vary.

Modifié par Ivucci, 11 février 2012 - 11:43 .

[culletron1]

Ivucci wrote...

Hardly.

I only finished DA2 three/four weeks ago (various real life and other issues got in the way). I had been initially put off by its bad reputation (although, if you actually asked me *where* had I got this impression, I wouldn't be able to tell) but when I finally got my hads on it and started playing... I loved it.

Now, two playthroughs later, I am more critical and I start seeing the flaws (reading this forum is largely to blame , but I do remember very clearly that my first reaction was Wow (the very good sort of Wow). For many reasons. I'm still in the "I love the game" camp.

I remember my first playthrough... I initially thought " this is awesome, I don't know why people are bashing it"... After putting about 10 hours into it I realized that quality of the game was in fact quite shocking. The linear storyline, the MMO fetch quests (which they didn't even TRY to mask in story or dialog), the never changing city, the awful dialog, the one dimensional characters to the reused maps and everything in between. 

Compared to its predecessor, other bioware games and other AAA RPGs of last year it really is a very very poor effort and has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Then when you take into account the amazing leg up the game had due to the rich and amazing world Gaider had created with DA:O, Stolen Throne and The Calling it just makes me even more annoyed.

Modifié par culletron1, 11 février 2012 - 11:52 .

[TEWR]

No offense (to immediately differentiate from my previous posts), but that's backwards. During a recession, cheap recreation purchases actually go up. Games, comic books, sports cards, DVD's... all go up. See here:

http://www.pcworld.c...ys_nielsen.html

The idea is that people look for recreational items that provide a higher bang for the buck. $60 for 100 hours of gameplay? Cheap, compared to what they would spend money on in boom times. People look for ways to take their minds off their situation.

None taken. I honestly did not know that people spend more money in a recession. Doesn't make much sense to do so, but it's understandable for them to do so. I just thought people might save up their money for the more important things like gas, car repairs, bills, food, and stuff.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2012 - 12:11 .

[puppy maclove]

I really wanted to like it but it was a major disappointment for me in the strongest possible terms. The reasons have been well documented. I'm happy for everyone who enjoyed it but I think you are in a very small minority. Just my opinion.

Still, I'm still looking forward to DA3, it's going to be interesting where they decide to take it!!!!! Lets hope it meets everyone's expectations.

[SinnSly]

I absolutely love DAII, but I hate DA:O
People expect too much from some games etc thus get let down real bad when they see something they don't like etc

I enjoy playing DAII over and over =)