133 réponses à ce sujet

[Boss Fog]

Bioware did what they could with this game; mind you I think it's an excellent game but it could have been better were it not for the EA overlords.

[MasterSamson88]

Honestly I didn't really find many faults in the game. I guess it's either just not your cup of tea or you're nitpicking things because you just generally are more attached to Origins.

It's a pretty normal thing for most fans to absolutely turn on developers the moment they change something about a franchise.

[bobo_minky]

Icy Magebane wrote...

MICHELLE7 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.

Meredith kinda explained it at the end...she gave Hawke a pass and to an extent the rest of those with her (if you look at the codex...I think Anders was left alone from Templar harrassment because of her) because she was the champion and protector of the city.

I remember that conversation from somewhere in Act 3, but what about Act 1?  You're just some person who wandered off a boat and starts casting spells... why wouldn't the Templars be interested in that?  They don't even give their own citizens the freedom to be magic-wielding vigilantes, but they just ignore some penniless refugee apostate?  Everything they say about the Kirkwall Circle tells me that Hawke should have been put in chains and brought in for questioning and indoctrination.  Or at least they could have tried... anything would have been better...

Edit:  Regarding Blood Magic in DA:O:  Wynne should not have even been allowed to take that specialization.  It was ridiculous that you could teach her to use the very magic she detests most!

Exactly, you're a frigging Fereldan refugee nobody. This gets pointed out often enough, and yet you have the freedom to kill people and engage in massive fights in the Hightown streets, and the bloody Templar, who are crawling all over the place do NOTHING!

Having something like the the Chantry apprehend you if you use magic in the city walls would have been an awesome opprotunity to make playing a mage that much more dangerous and exciting. And to prevent it from cramping your style too much, maybe they could have made it so that when you return from your expedition, with gold and your noble house had been restored, they tolerate/turn a blind eye, as long as you don't use magic infront of them. Just something to keep what happens IN game consistent with what were told of how the world works.

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 06:12 .

[darth_hel]

bobo_minky wrote...

reddragon567 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.

This was a problem in DA:O as well. Wynne, a non-warden circle mage. You could have her doing blood magic and ripping people apart from thier veins. And she doesn't care.

Agreed. The lack of reaction to your use of blood magic in front of Wynne WAS very disappointing.

However, the issue of being apostate was sort or resolved because the MC in DA1 was a Warden first and foremost, and therefore able to act as a mage outside of the circle. I will agree that there was an issue with the apostate Morrigan, as everyone, Wynne included, turned a very convenient 'blind eye' to her use of magic.

I kind of assumed that everyone turned a blind eye to Morrigan because she was with the warden so what's the point. They get all worked up, try to take her to the circle, warden claims right of conscription and she leaves free and clear. Just no reason to try to apprehend anyone that a warden wants to protect unless you're prepared to attack the warden.

[AlexXIV]

Well it is has been a rushed development and you can't really avoid to notice it. I don't think anything is really bad, but alot of things could have been done alot better. I think EA's idea is that if they only sell half as many copies of DA2 with such a short develpment time it still is better profit than with DA:O. Since time is probably the most cost intensive factor in the development.

[monima]

darth_hel wrote...

bobo_minky wrote...

reddragon567 wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.

This was a problem in DA:O as well. Wynne, a non-warden circle mage. You could have her doing blood magic and ripping people apart from thier veins. And she doesn't care.

Agreed. The lack of reaction to your use of blood magic in front of Wynne WAS very disappointing.

However, the issue of being apostate was sort or resolved because the MC in DA1 was a Warden first and foremost, and therefore able to act as a mage outside of the circle. I will agree that there was an issue with the apostate Morrigan, as everyone, Wynne included, turned a very convenient 'blind eye' to her use of magic.

I kind of assumed that everyone turned a blind eye to Morrigan because she was with the warden so what's the point. They get all worked up, try to take her to the circle, warden claims right of conscription and she leaves free and clear. Just no reason to try to apprehend anyone that a warden wants to protect unless you're prepared to attack the warden.

Not to mention the circle was in shambles and everyone was running for their life. I would not apprehend a powerful mage that might just help save the day during such dire circumstances. Probably be more busy running for my life.

Kirkwall on the other hand is one of the worst places for a mage to be. The circle is much harsher and more people are being made tranquil. The Knight Kommander is not the merciful sort, and there is templars all over the place. And no one says anything, makes no sense. 

Though Meredith was not possed in the beginning so maybe it wasnt as bad when you first arrive as it is in the end?

[bobo_minky]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Honestly I didn't really find many faults in the game. I guess it's either just not your cup of tea or you're nitpicking things because you just generally are more attached to Origins.

It's a pretty normal thing for most fans to absolutely turn on developers the moment they change something about a franchise.

As I've said previously, considering DA1, the DA world and History, this game had potential. It was not used in my opinion. RPG's are my cup of tea, however, story inconsistencies, repetitive combat, unrealistic/poorly designed dungeons/environs, boring loot are not my cup of tea.

Trying to undermine what I feel to be valid points against the game by assuming I'm 'turning' on the devs because they changed some elements of the game is one big, stuffed straw man. I have given reasons why I feel some changes, like the inventory/interface system, seem a step backwards, not forwards. And the story/world inconsistencies have nothing to do with the DA franchise change, and everything to do with poor plot crafting.

Do you care to give reasons WHY you think DA2 is equal to or better than DA1?

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[ToJKa1]

Good points OP, but still i think

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think anything is really bad, but alot of things could have been done alot better.

this. I don't hate nor dislike DA2, but i certainly hope DA3 will be closer to Origins

 That mage thing did bother me too, Cullen being such a blood mage fearing templar should've imprisoned Hawke when s/he came to report him at the Gallows.And then have the chance to escape, have other apostates help you, or submit to the Templars? There is plenty of unused potential in this game.

Modifié par ToJKa1, 14 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[bobo_minky]

ToJKa1 wrote...

Good points OP, but still i think

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think anything is really bad, but alot of things could have been done alot better.

this. I don't hate nor dislike DA2, but i certainly hope DA3 will be closer to Origins.

You know, I don't hate the game either. It's an average game and it's the fact that's it's so mediocre that get's me sad. The RPG genre in general offers so much potential in terms of world immersion and great storytelling, and DA2 just another game that falls short of the hype.

The point of my long-winded OP was not to spread the hate or nitpick, but to hopefully get people talking about some serious Immersion/World issues. If nothing ever gets discussed critically then how can Bioware hope to know what their audience is thinking of their work?

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[bobo_minky]

monimakitten wrote...

Not to mention the circle was in shambles and everyone was running for their life. I would not apprehend a powerful mage that might just help save the day during such dire circumstances. Probably be more busy running for my life.

Kirkwall on the other hand is one of the worst places for a mage to be. The circle is much harsher and more people are being made tranquil. The Knight Kommander is not the merciful sort, and there is templars all over the place. And no one says anything, makes no sense. 

Though Meredith was not possed in the beginning so maybe it wasnt as bad when you first arrive as it is in the end?

Good point. The situation in DA1 with the destruction of the circle and the very real threat of the darkspawn horde did make it more beleivable that apostates could get away with using magic more openly. It's not 100% believable, but it IS better than the complete reality fail of Apostates/Templars in DA2.

[Cipher1989]

Reason why this game is being "bashed" is because it's called Dragon Age "2", the officiall sequel to Dragon Age: Origins. Had Bioware made this game as a spin-off series called Dragon Age: Rise to Power or something, and not an official sequal (something like Dark Alliance to Baldurs Gate) then it will be much better received from fans.

[MasterSamson88]

Well it's mostly the fact that a lot of the issues you bring up were present in Origins actually.

[SuperMedbh]

bobo_minky wrote...

SuperMedbh wrote...

So, did you like it?

Some parts are ok, but I'm getting no sense of plot so far, combat is one big, frustrating bore, I'm not immersed in  the world at all, and I'm starting to think my time will be better spent replaying DA1.

I was only being slightly flip.  Personally, I think the game has gameplay issues that become plot flaws (your point about the blind Templars is well taken).  But I don't think flawed equals mediocre.  Call it uneven.  I mean, if you just took the dialogue from the escape from Lothering, you'd be groaning about the "obligatory dead family member" start (gosh, haven't seen that before).  But there's quite a bit that can touch you--  as the game goes on, you find that your party members have a fair amount of depth to them.  Merril, for example, is more than the naive country girl and the bit where she screams at Hawke for not given her the mirror part (haven't done it the other way) feels really authentic and moving.  The various plot elements feel episodic, and yet taken individually (aside from the FedEx quests), they are usually more than just "go here, kill that".  Combat is unrealistic, filled with waves of magically appearing baddies, and most of the "tactics" boil down to doing combos and keeping squishies away from the fight.  And yet....it's fun and a bit of a gigglefest with the over the top animations.

I'm still not sure what to make of DA2.  I thought I'd hate it based on the demo, but hey, I'd promised it to myself as a reward for keeping a New Year's resolution.  Then I found myself OCD finishing it, now on a second run.  So, in a cognitive self-apperception sense, I *guess* I really enjoy it.  But I'm not always sure why.  Go figure!

PS, just did a DAO run a week ago for old times sake.  It stands up, even if the graphics aren't on par with DA2 (I'll disagree about Kirkwall being uninspired.  I found it beautiful, actually.  Recycled caves, not so much)

Modifié par SuperMedbh, 14 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[bobo_minky]

Cipher1989 wrote...

Reason why this game is being "bashed" is because it's called Dragon Age "2", the officiall sequel to Dragon Age: Origins. Had Bioware made this game as a spin-off series called Dragon Age: Rise to Power or something, and not an official sequal (something like Dark Alliance to Baldurs Gate) then it will be much better received from fans.

Perhaps some are bashing it because it's not an exact replica in terms of interface/system, however, I do feel that most of the points in the OP have nothing to do with the DA franchise shift and everything do to with the numerous inconsistencies in terms of the world.

Not to mention some of the interface issues that seem overly complicated in a game that supposed to be streamlined. I have no problme with change, if it's for the better and adds to my enjoyment of the game, that is. I do have a problem with inconsistently applied attempts at 'streamlining' and poor world immersion.

And speaking of Baldur's Gate and spin offs; the official sequel to Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2, was everything I could hope for in an RPG. Spin-offs such as Icewind Dale left me cold (pardon the pun) and as with DA2, I will probably never complete it because it was not a great game.

I really think it has nothing to do whether it's an official sequel or not, and everything to do with whether it's a well-crafted, immersive, interesting and enjoyable world to adventure through.

[HawXV2]

I'm glad this isn't a troll hate thread, but I don't like seeing this here. How about putting it in GD with all the other hate threads? I come here to discuss the story with other people who like and enjoy it, not see the same crap I did in GD.

[bobo_minky]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Well it's mostly the fact that a lot of the issues you bring up were present in Origins actually.

That's a nice vague statement. If you don't mind, could you please give examples?

The only ONE I can think of is the question of Blood Magic not being properly reacted to. The issue of Apostate MC & Morrigan has been covered sufficiently in previous posts.

[bobo_minky]

HawXV2 wrote...

I'm glad this isn't a troll hate thread, but I don't like seeing this here. How about putting it in GD with all the other hate threads? I come here to discuss the story with other people who like and enjoy it, not see the same crap I did in GD.

Well, this thread started off in the General Discussion Section, and at the request of one of the Official Bioware admins is was moved here. I'm also glad to hear you think this isn't a troll hate thread, but I have to ask then why you'd like it put it with 'all the other hate threads'?

Regarding discussing story elements, there have been a couple mentioned here, namely the lack of realsim concering Apostates in Kirkwall. Care to offer an opinion on that? As far as I've read, no other thread has addressed this element of the story yet, so it does not qualify as 'that same crap you've read in GD'.

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[Mastermadskills]

Your OP made me laugh.

This game has so many issues it's a freak show. :S

[Jessycaxx]

While playing DA:2 i just didnt find myself being sucked into it...As in DA:O good point here was they rushed it. Bioware are amazing developers, but i believe EA pretty much sucked out there soul and pushed it "trying" to be like mass effect. It had all the same crap as ME i love the game, but DA:O to ME are two different story lines, two different games. 
TBH the talking hero kind of turned me away with the lack of options you once had, and the companions crap? you dont get sucked into actually "befriending" these people just... "oh god we have to talk to them again"
I've defeated the game and the one thing that pissed me off the most was "every mage turns to either demons or blood magic" EVEN AT THE FRIGGEN END! when you choose the enchanter he GOES TO BLOOD MAGIC! just... its enough of this crap, everytime i turn around a mage goes to demons. Im pretty sure it DA:O you could go into the fade and kill that demon? but it DA:2 there is no possible way you must kill them... sigh. 
Either or, it was a okay game. They changed a lot, and took steps back on a lot of things. Lets hope if they make a 3rd one they would at least have more devoloping time so theres a lack of glitchs and bugs.

I agree with everything, everyone is saying. I LOVE dragon age, but sometimes a fan needs to actully say the problems so bioware will actully see them.

[Elen]

Great review, I agree with everything. You even left out some obvious annoyances like massive recycling. If you hurry, you can probably see every single map the game uses during the first 30 minutes. At one point I completed three quests in a row that all were completed on the same warehouse map (different location, same map). With the only difference being some sealed doors.

[bobo_minky]

Mastermadskills wrote...

Your OP made me laugh....

Glad to hear it

[bobo_minky]

Elen wrote...

Great review, I agree with everything. You even left out some obvious annoyances like massive recycling. If you hurry, you can probably see every single map the game uses during the first 30 minutes. At one point I completed three quests in a row that all were completed on the same warehouse map (different location, same map). With the only difference being some sealed doors.

Thank you!

I did pick up on the shameless recycling, but I think it was the lack of immersion and reality fails that bugged me the most. I'm willing to look past a number of issues in a game, as long as the world and story keep me immersed. If immersion is lacking, that's when all the other faults become that much more obvious.

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 07:41 .

[GregoriusMaximus]

OP is absolutely right.

I would add that the plot in general is completely absurd, follows no coherent path and had me lolling many many times - and not at the crappy jokes. When Anders blew up the Chantry it was just like...

www.loiterink.com/photos/products/129_795_500x500.jpg

Modifié par GregoriusMaximus, 14 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[bobo_minky]

Jessycaxx wrote...
TBH the talking hero kind of turned me away with the lack of options you once had, and the companions crap? you dont get sucked into actually "befriending" these people just... "oh god we have to talk to them again"

Agreed! The dialogue was very lacking. If given a choice in a game, I'd rather have all the dialogue in text only, but with nicely thought out options and replies, as opposed to limited replies, delivered by a largely uninspiring set of voice actors.

Jessycaxx wrote...
I've defeated the game and the one thing that pissed me off the most was "every mage turns to either demons or blood magic" EVEN AT THE FRIGGEN END! when you choose the enchanter he GOES TO BLOOD MAGIC! just... its enough of this crap, everytime i turn around a mage goes to demons. Im pretty sure it DA:O you could go into the fade and kill that demon? but it DA:2 there is no possible way you must kill them... sigh.

Good point regarding demon possesion! In DA1 we could go into the fade and save people from posession, why not the same in DA2?

And there is a predictable trend of having Apostates turn to demons or blood magic, but then I guess that's just going to become one of those Dragon Age world cliches.

[MasterSamson88]

bobo_minky wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Well it's mostly the fact that a lot of the issues you bring up were present in Origins actually.

That's a nice vague statement. If you don't mind, could you please give examples?

Well you mention the citizens just standing around, but I'd remind you that they did the exact same thing in Origins. The environments were also equally if not more so empty than the ones in Kirkwall.

The sibling's death is revisited numerous times in the game after the fact. I'd also defend that the death of your sibling happens while you're also attempting to run for your life, so putting this huge dramatic scene into something for a character you met maybe 10 minutes ago seems rather pointless. More could have been put into character intro's perhaps, but the fact that you basically run home and then run from it immediately makes that difficult as well. You also don't want to risk making an intro too long as many people want to get freed up to play the main game.

Being an apostate is mentioned, but it's much like being a mage in Dragon Age Origins, where as people say "You are a mage" every once in a while. However now some party members will be a little more turned off by you depending on if you are one or not. Granted it IS slightly unrealistic that Meredith would not try to apprehend you, but really the only thing you had suspending your belief of why you weren't arrested in Origins was the fact that you were a Grey Warden and above the law somehow. 

You could also to my knowledge wreck as much havoc in Denerim and not really suffer any repercussions. But then again Dragon Age never really did feature any kind of law system. It's definitely not designed to play like the Elder Scrolls where you free roam and are arrested or told off for any wrong doing you do. It's just not that kind of RPG. Plus I'd say that if we actually put that much thought into how many enemies attack you as opposed to how many people are in the city we wouldn't have much of a game. Wave combat was less pronounced in Dragon Age Origins, but it was there. The only reason it's more blatant now is because of the fact that combat is much more fast paced than Origins was. There are no doubt improvements to be made, but overall I don't really mind the way it's handled.

You also mention lack of body types... but really? Most games I've played have only one body type for each race/sex/character. The improvement in Dragon Age 2 is that at the very least the races have been more defined with their own body types rather than Elves just being shorter humans with the same sized hands and broad shoulders. Qunari are now intimidatingly huge with their immense muscular bodies and huge horns, an improvement over the somewhat large grey men in Origins I think.

As for fat vs skinny. It costs money to make varied body types for that kind of stuff, and from what I've seen from plenty of games is that most don't really bother and focus on other things. Origins actually tried to very things slightly, but it was rather pointless because you'd basically see the occasional overweight male or female, almost always using the same skin. Seeing them pulled from the game really didn't surprise me too much.

As for shuffling party members in and out of your party I'd say that, it is a bit of a trudge to have to go and select people and take them out to access their items and put them on someone else, I agree with you. However I believe it's a massive improvement having the party in their own houses as opposed to a magical teleporting camp thats in the same neck of wilderness all the time and at the same perpetual time of day. Plus with their own houses they're able to interact more with things, they're able to sit, pick things up, lay down. The horn thing in their houses... it really doesn't bother me. I know it's there for a gameplay reason, constructing your party before heading out I don't really see anything incredibly unrealistic about it, I practically pretend it's not there.

The interface seems nearly the same for me, apart from the fact that I have to enter another menu to level up my characters and such. However now at the very least there's more information in what each character does damage-wise. I can see the DA1 UI there, the inventory works nearly the same for the most part. Certain aspects of leveling have been separated, I agree that it was indeed kind of awkward as I was used to just flipping around in the Origins UI, but really it didn't bother me all too much. I just got used to it in the end I guess. Really though, UI's always tend to change from game to game in a franchise for better or worse. All the developer can really do is pick it up for the next game, see what worked and what didn't and try again. As for alternate weapon set ups I don't really see why there's really a need for them in Dragon Age 2. All the classes have been more confined to weapons of their class, so now Warriors are typically confined to great swords/great axes or sword and shield. Putting points into both sword and shield and two hand seems like a easy way to get nowhere in the game combat wise so I suppose this is why they took it out. As for things like bows, they've been now confined to rogues, and the same kind of applies, and it sort of applied to Origins as well. If you're focusing on dual weapons, why put points into bow? Pointless really.

As for combat, I suppose it's a very subjective thing. People can argue for hours and never come to a conclusion as to what kind of combat is better. Personally I prefer the new faster paced combat with waves of enemies. As I said before the only reason for the waves is really the fact that you can run through droves of enemies with how powerful you can become. To me? That never gets old... But to me there's something satisfying about it. I think one of the problems I had with Dragon Age Origins combat was that it reminded me far too much of Final Fantasy XI, an MMO I played for a year or so. You basically clicked an auto attack and sort of selected special moves when you had the power needed. In Origins, Two handed warrior was really tedious for me, because of the fact that I'd really run out of stamina almost instantly, so there was a drastic improvement in DA2. Rogue has improved too with the much faster paced combat and backstabbing. Mage is less over powered than in Origins but from my experience it's a whole lot more fun and a lot better looking.

Thievery... I'd argue, was never really a big part of Dragon Age... Stealth for the most part was mostly a combat based skill. All chests, crates, cabinets and such were free for plundering. Dragon Age once again never really did go too far in depth like the Elder Scrolls did when it came to looting and getting arrested for it, because that's just not really a focus of Dragon Age. I will say that lock picking isn't really as common as it was in Origins, I was a little annoyed by this and I didn't really know WHY they got rid of so many locked chests. And all too often I opened them only to find junk.

Loot... well I agree with you on loot. It's pretty bad, it's pretty worthless. Not only is about 90 percent of it junk now but it's all worth even less than it was in Origins. Which makes it kind of hard to actively make money from selling things you've found. I also miss the weapon and loot descriptions. But in the end it really doesn't upset me all that much.

In the end I guess we can agree to disagree, overall I've noticed a lot of improvements from Dragon Age Origins which was by no means perfect, and at the same time I can see a lot of things that will need to be improved in Dragon Age 3. But really I think this can be said about any game.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 14 mars 2011 - 07:56 .