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Dragon Age 2: a mediocre game at best, add your voice and maybe next release, we'll get a better game.


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#51
bobo_minky

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GregoriusMaximus wrote...

OP is absolutely right.

I would add that the plot in general is completely absurd, follows no coherent path and had me lolling many many times - and not at the crappy jokes. When Anders blew up the Chantry it was just like...

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Ah, agreement! Always nice to hear.

I've only made it through the first two acts, (and in all probability I'm not going to play too seriously or too hard for much longer) and I must say I feel the plot to be very mundane so far.

It can be summarised as followed:
Lose home and sibling in darkspawn invasion
flee to ex-slaver city
get forced into indentured servitude for one year
get forced into many hours of fed-ex gameplay to grind for gold so I can go on an expedition into the Deep Roads
so I can grind for more gold.
Pick up arbitary companions along the way.
Return to Kirkwall, after grinding for more gold and boring 'treasure' in the Deep Roads, and all I've got is a very bland looking ancestral home to show for it?

Why does Hawke even care? I know right in the beginning Carver points out the fact that without title and wealth I'm an easier target for the templars, but really, the Templars don't care that I'm an Apostate, therefore negating any urgent reason for me to want to amass wealth and a title.

#52
Icy Magebane

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@Mastersamson... I'm in the process of reading your rather long post, but something caught my eye. In DA:O, Warden's aren't just some abstract concept. They actually are above the law and not subject to the Chantry's rules. Apostate mages among their ranks makes sense. Wandering apostate vagabonds do not. Especially not in a city-state known for being extremely harsh in its treatment of ALL mages, and intolerant of foreigners. Hawke is a foreign apostate and I am not seeing any justification for the Templars ignoring his or her presence. Ok, back to reading...

Alright.  That's pretty much all I had to say.  Personally, I thought the combat was fun, and I have no complaints over some of the imperfect details like citizens not fleeing from combat, etc.   These are most likely the results of a limited budget.  For me, the story fell flat more than once, and that's what really lowers this game's quality.  When all is said and done, DA2 wasn't a great game.  It was indeed mediocre.  That's not really an insult though... it's a fair assessment.  Not every game can be a 10.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 14 mars 2011 - 08:09 .


#53
MasterSamson88

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Icy Magebane wrote...

@Mastersamson... I'm in the process of reading your rather long post, but something caught my eye. In DA:O, Warden's aren't just some abstract concept. They actually are above the law and not subject to the Chantry's rules. Apostate mages among their ranks makes sense. Wandering apostate vagabonds do not. Especially not in a city-state known for being extremely harsh in its treatment of ALL mages, and intolerant of foreigners. Hawke is a foreign apostate and I am not seeing any justification for the Templars ignoring his or her presence. Ok, back to reading...


I thought I mentioned it, but I suppose I didn't. Yeah it is a little weird, but it's hard to focus on such a thing with a big side quest of avoiding templars when there are two other classes and other main quests that need to be looked after as well. It's kind of obvious that's for sure, in Act 1, but in Act 2 and 3 I sometimes think that Hawke has so much influence that he's able to sort of skirt by. 

Certainly due to Dumare's influence as Viscount he was able to make it so Bethany wasn't executed and rather taken to the circle tower. As for Hawke, he sort of becomes a right hand and confidant of the Viscount and I think in response he's given some preferential treatment and protection. In Act III, you're basically Champion, and a hero of the people for Kirkwall. Meredith arresting you would be rather ridiculous and she knows this. So instead she seems to try manipulating you to use you as a tool as opposed to just sending an army of templars after you.

Oh and what you said about the Wardens, I may have messed up my thoughts when typing, but I know that they're technically above the law, at least in most countries. But my main point was that was really the only thing keeping you from being arrested, and I don't believe it was really focused on too much.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 14 mars 2011 - 08:11 .


#54
Icy Magebane

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No, I am fine with Acts 2 and 3, and I can understand that they didn't have the time or money to really explore all the possibilities presented by each class. All I'm saying is that... it's noticeable. It's thing like this that make the story seem weak at times, and it's not like we're the ones who decided mages should be feared. This is Bioware's world, and I expected the rules to be internally consistent. As I said, DA2 is a good game, but it could have been better. Anyway, I've been ranting about this issue for some time now... lol... I've probably said all I needed to.

#55
Cipher1989

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Why do Bioware even bother to make a sequal with so short development time? EA's fault?

#56
Arppis

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Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.


I guess people don't care who bails them out. But in this game there is no proper explonation for the tolerance at apostate heroes.

#57
Lakhi

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Dragon age II wasn't the perfect game and I don't think its reasonable for us to expect that, origins was not without its flaws as well.

Dragon Age II added new things for the developers to fiddle with, some things I felt worked such as the frequent inter-companion dialogue and to an extent the new combat system.

What bioware needs to do for DA III is take the elements of DAO (the scale the maps and the non-combat gameplay) that worked and combine them with the elements of DA II that worked (the combat, the inter-character emotions and to an extent the graphics].

I think that had DA II been given another 3-4 months it would have been a lot closer to the mark than it is now, right now I feel like I'm beta testing :(.

#58
bobo_minky

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MasterSamson88 wrote...

.


Okay, now were talking. Nicely worded and thought out post, thank you!

Sibling death/intro: Hmmm, I dunno. I think the intro can be of a decent length (long enough to introduce the characters and get the story atmosphere going at any rate) without having players get impatient.  As long as a player feels like they are gaining something from it in the form of  XP, unique loot or plain old enjoyment at the story. I have not finished the game, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt that the dead sibling issue is handled a little better than it was initially.

As for the initial scene. I didn't expcect a whole big grieving funeral. Time was of the essence, I know, but a little more emotion and intensity from all the characters involved would have helped. Comparitively, more time was spent with Wesleys scene than the dead sibling.

Body types: I hear you, extra models cost more dev time and money and atleast they did take the time and trouble to differentiate the races more. But really, how much extra cost is it to have one or two more NPC models? They could have at least made an effort for Hawkes mother. I mean come on, the woman has grey hair and wrinkles around her eyes and the body of bloody Pamela Anderson and were supposed to believe she's our frail old mother, whose given birth to three kids? Old should be old. I'm sure they can spare some cash and get it right.

Interface: I hear you about each class and companion being geared towards a single weapon setup, but I still say being able to switch out weapons quickly and easily would be useful. So for example if you have two longwrods set up with different runes, it would be lovely to be able to simply switch between the two. The same for a mage who might use ice versus a standard enemy, or need spirit against a Lieutenant.

And don't get me wrong, I quite like having the party members in their own locations. It does add a nice element of realsim. It's just that I feel that having to shuffle companions in and out of my party to equip/unequip stuff is an uneccessary timewaster. I know the perpetual-night camp wasn't much better in terms of realism, but at least it made equipped item management that much simpler. I'm thinking either you go for a game that's properly streamlined, or you go for realism. This awkward mix they have at the moment  just doesn't work, imo.

Combat: The classes in DA1 were very badly balanced, and as such I really only had fun playing a mage and a dual-weilding assasin. The two-handed fighter was totally gimped. Sword and board wasn't that spectalular either. I think DA2 has gone a long way to addressing the class imbalances in the first game, as well as differnetiating the classes and giving them each their own, very unique styles. Level ups are more interesting now in that there are multiple valid routes for each class to go.

Thievery: I know it wasn't core to DA1, but my point regarding the locked/unlocked containers was made more in terms of game streamlining than DA1 vs DA2 realism. My question is: If there is no in-game mechanism to deal with thievery, then why even bother with locking chests? Just have all the containers unlocked and lootable (so we don't need to waste time and effort to go back with a Rogue, which is probably what most players end up doing) OR have some chests locked ( the ones that make sense) and have a mechanism that punishes a poor attempt at theiving. I don't see the point in having anything in-between.

All in all I'm hearing and agreeing to much of what you've written regarding realism. I know DA1 was never super realsitic in the way Elder Scrolls was, but something DA1's story, the urgency of the darkspawn invasion, the fact that you were one of the sole surviving wardens, the tradgedy and treachery of Loghain all made for a much more immersive and epic storyline.

DA2 is flat in terms of world and plot. It's the lack of immersion that has me seeing all the other little faults and gripes. As I've said before, I'm willing to forgive a lot in a game, provided the story is good and keeps me immersed, which unfoirtunately DA2 just isn't doing.

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 08:55 .


#59
Jessycaxx

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bobo_minky wrote...
Agreed! The dialogue was very lacking. If given a choice in a game, I'd rather have all the dialogue in text only, but with nicely thought out options and replies, as opposed to limited replies, delivered by a largely uninspiring set of voice actors.


Yes, thats the one thing that made me love the game so much because it sucked you in with the dialogue and how much there was of it. You felt like the hero, they pretty much took the RPG out of the game, pretty much the decisions you make still don't effect the outcome and if it does it is by little... like i said, i choose the mages and the first enchanter was against blood magic and looked down on them etc. But then at the very end resorted to it? so how does that make sense to show the world that mages arent always "blood magic, or demon posessed"..

Good point regarding demon possesion! In DA1 we could go into the fade and save people from posession, why not the same in DA2?

And there is a predictable trend of having Apostates turn to demons or blood magic, but then I guess that's just going to become one of those Dragon Age world cliches.


That's all i heard in this game was every mage was evil turned to blood magic or demons took over them? i know in the game it said that the templars were sucking out all there freedom but still In the first game it did not show the mages so weak and single minded. Maybe they were trying to show the difference between feralden and kirkwall? i'm not sure. Because if it was so easy why didnt beathany when she was dieing just turn into a demon because "thats all that mages do" meh.

either or im not trying to bash the game, if they had a lot more time, they would've done a whole lot better :)

Cipher1989 wrote...

Why do Bioware even bother to make a sequal with so short development time? EA's fault?


My guess would be so, it was a very short time developing this game. 

Modifié par Jessycaxx, 14 mars 2011 - 08:57 .


#60
dwinning

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The fact is, a person could sit and pick apart any great book, movie, album or game. Nothing is perfect. The OP is the kind of guy who could be screwing a supermodel and complain that the bed's too squeaky, he doesn't like her perfume and her hair's all messy.

#61
boraxalmighty

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Arppis wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.


I guess people don't care who bails them out. But in this game there is no proper explonation for the tolerance at apostate heroes.


OK so this point is way to easy to figure out and it actually is getting boring explaining this. Here it goes. First of all when you arrive you are unknown to the Circle and the people of Kirkwall. No one knows that you are a mage and you are very good at hiding it. Your father was an apostate and did a very good job of hidng you from the templars so I'm pretty sure you picked up the tricks of the trade. You never once use mage infront of a templar that you don't help or kill, and all fighting in hightown takes place under cover of night. After you return from the deep roads you have achieved elite status among the nobles which makes it hard to come after you and you have a brother covering your ass with the templars. For those of you whining about not being called out for using blood magic you don't get called out for being a templar as a warrior. Thats nitpicking an irrelevant aspect of the game. Even as a noble you still don't blatantly fling your spells around and templars aren't grey wardens they can't sense magic in people. Now if this isn't enough to satisfy you well....**** you I tried.

#62
Jessycaxx

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boraxalmighty wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.


I guess people don't care who bails them out. But in this game there is no proper explonation for the tolerance at apostate heroes.


OK so this point is way to easy to figure out and it actually is getting boring explaining this. Here it goes. First of all when you arrive you are unknown to the Circle and the people of Kirkwall. No one knows that you are a mage and you are very good at hiding it. Your father was an apostate and did a very good job of hidng you from the templars so I'm pretty sure you picked up the tricks of the trade. You never once use mage infront of a templar that you don't help or kill, and all fighting in hightown takes place under cover of night. After you return from the deep roads you have achieved elite status among the nobles which makes it hard to come after you and you have a brother covering your ass with the templars. For those of you whining about not being called out for using blood magic you don't get called out for being a templar as a warrior. Thats nitpicking an irrelevant aspect of the game. Even as a noble you still don't blatantly fling your spells around and templars aren't grey wardens they can't sense magic in people. Now if this isn't enough to satisfy you well....**** you I tried.


you totally make sense, But wouldn't it be more interesting being hunted and looked down on by the templars and working up from there? then the mages have someone to look up to and wouldnt resort to BM or demons? aha only a dream i suppose.

But again.. they didnt make it clear, its like reading between the lines? some people don't have the patience to know every single inch, it should be clear.

#63
MasterSamson88

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Well I think story-wise it's really down to taste... I honestly really enjoyed DA2's story. It seemed a lot more centralized to me on Hawkes rise to power and the tensions between factions that he has to deal with all the while. It just seemed a lot more complicated to me, which I liked.

Not to say I didn't enjoy Origins story either, but in the end I'd rather have a different story that wasn't all about beating a big bad again.

#64
bobo_minky

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boraxalmighty wrote...
OK so this point is way to easy to figure out and it actually is getting boring explaining this. Here it goes. First of all when you arrive you are unknown to the Circle and the people of Kirkwall. No one knows that you are a mage and you are very good at hiding it. Your father was an apostate and did a very good job of hidng you from the templars so I'm pretty sure you picked up the tricks of the trade....


Making sense so far...but then during one of your very first fights against the angry deserters you let loose your magics as the Deserters turn hostile, right in the middle of the Gallows and in front of a high ranking guard. This is followed up by using magic in the Chantry in the defence of Anders as well as using magic in front of  a high ranking templar in the Wilmod quest.

Sorry, but your epic stealth mage explanation falls flat right after that first fight in the Gallows.

Modifié par bobo_minky, 14 mars 2011 - 09:12 .


#65
MasterSamson88

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Jessycaxx wrote...

boraxalmighty wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

The OP is right about how being an apostate or traveling with apostates had no effect on the story. I didn't like that one bit. I often found myself wondering why the Templars weren't trying to put Hawke in the Circle, and it got even worse once he started using blood magic. Nobody cared.


I guess people don't care who bails them out. But in this game there is no proper explonation for the tolerance at apostate heroes.


OK so this point is way to easy to figure out and it actually is getting boring explaining this. Here it goes. First of all when you arrive you are unknown to the Circle and the people of Kirkwall. No one knows that you are a mage and you are very good at hiding it. Your father was an apostate and did a very good job of hidng you from the templars so I'm pretty sure you picked up the tricks of the trade. You never once use mage infront of a templar that you don't help or kill, and all fighting in hightown takes place under cover of night. After you return from the deep roads you have achieved elite status among the nobles which makes it hard to come after you and you have a brother covering your ass with the templars. For those of you whining about not being called out for using blood magic you don't get called out for being a templar as a warrior. Thats nitpicking an irrelevant aspect of the game. Even as a noble you still don't blatantly fling your spells around and templars aren't grey wardens they can't sense magic in people. Now if this isn't enough to satisfy you well....**** you I tried.


you totally make sense, But wouldn't it be more interesting being hunted and looked down on by the templars and working up from there? then the mages have someone to look up to and wouldnt resort to BM or demons? aha only a dream i suppose.

But again.. they didnt make it clear, its like reading between the lines? some people don't have the patience to know every single inch, it should be clear.


Right... but what you're suggesting then turns into an entirely different plot for the mage class.

And if they did it like that only shortened in the end it would be basically like a prologue from Origins, where you're essentially quickly introduced to a bunch of characters and bailed out your fate by some kind of measure so you can continue on with the game like any other class. Personally aside from establishing a little backstory I found most of the Origins kind of forgettable, as did many others.

#66
bobo_minky

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dwinning wrote...

The fact is, a person could sit and pick apart any great book, movie, album or game. Nothing is perfect. The OP is the kind of guy who could be screwing a supermodel and complain that the bed's too squeaky, he doesn't like her perfume and her hair's all messy.


Thanks for that random ad hominem attack. Now looking past what kind of person you assume me to be, please tell me what's wrong with criticising something that is in need fo criticism?

If nobody ever bothered to discuss creative work critically or objectively then I dare say that the quality of these works would be all the poorer for it. 

#67
scpulley

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There definitely some truth to the OP's comment. My only hope for the game at this point, despite the setting in DA 2 potentially being much more interesting to me than the more standard fantasy game DAO was of go kill the big dragon, they turn this around with a very good round of DLC or expansion and a solid 3rd game that isn't rushed. I think this game was rushed, hoping to earn enough money for a third and likely much better developed third game that actually ties in the two games to something that makes sense. This was a money grab of pushing out a glorified stand alone expansion rather than a full functioning game. I enjoyed it, but it really let me down with how unresolved it was I felt like I played half a game then the computer blew up before I finished.

Modifié par scpulley, 14 mars 2011 - 09:16 .


#68
bobo_minky

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scpulley wrote...

There definitely some truth to the OP's comment. My only hope for the game at this point, despite the setting in DA 2 potentially being much more interesting to me than the more standard fantasy game DAO was of go kill the big dragon, they turn this around with a very good round of DLC or expansion and a solid 3rd game that isn't rushed. I think this game was rushed, hoping to earn enough money for a third and likely much better developed third game that actually ties in the two games to something that makes sense. This was a money grab of pushing out a glorified stand alone expansion rather than a full functioning game. I enjoyed it, but it really let me down with how unresolved it was I felt like I played half a game then the computer blew up before I finished.


I really hope a sequel to the DA franchise is given the time and budget needed for a great game. There is no doubt  DA2 was rushed and I'm sure the devs don't like being rushed or forced into releasing a sub-par product. They are creatives at the end of the day and I'm sure they want to release their best possible work.

That being said, we as players need to let EA know that we do not apreciate poorly crafted plots and recycled environments. If enough people discuss, criticise and offer feedback, then maybe, just maybe, EA will think again before trying to sell us a rushed sequel?

#69
boraxalmighty

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I'll be honest though I don't think Hawke is supposed to be a mage. It just feels like class selection, and character customization were added to appease the fans. If Hawke was a defined character from the beginning the story would flow better.

#70
MasterSamson88

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The recycled environments were kind of annoying but I would say that it's hard to have both a lot of side quests that are worth doing and at the same time a lot of varied locations for them to take place. This wasn't noticed a lot in Origins because it simply wasn't as blatant. You mostly spent your time separated between the three main plot elements which all have very different characteristics. And at the same time most of the side quests were so small that you didn't really notice too much repeating scenery, either that or they took place during the main plot elements (Several side quests while in the deep roads come to mind).

Personally I was able to look past recycled environments mostly because a lot of the time there was a fairly fun or decent story occurring within them.

#71
Jessycaxx

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boraxalmighty wrote...

I'll be honest though I don't think Hawke is supposed to be a mage. It just feels like class selection, and character customization were added to appease the fans. If Hawke was a defined character from the beginning the story would flow better.


Then what if they put hawke as only a warrior then to "define" the character? that would be totally taking out the choices in the game, I want to play a game where i can choose to be a rogue, warrior or mage. I dont want some stupid person they think we will enjoy?

Flow better is false because it would've been that way in orgins which they did an okay job with it. All they need to do is take longer developing the game that is all.

#72
termokanden

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I am halfway through Act 3 now so not quite done with the game but almost.

Let me start out by saying I like this game. But still I agree with many of the points. Particularly the one about loot. It feels like it's even worse than it was in DAO where most items were worthless. Now it's even more rare to get an item that's worth more than one gold. And actually getting a gear upgrade? There's maybe one new weapon for me PER ACT...

Having pages and pages of junk items, selling them all and not seeing your gold count go up by even one is demoralizing. Why do I bother looting at all when everything is worthless?

I am playing a "good" character now, and it feels like I'm spending more gold helping people than I ever gain. Loot bunches of items and get a bit of silver. Help someone and lose 5 gold. Yes, I think demoralizing is the right word here I think.

The second part I really hate about the game is the reuse of areas. Everything was pretty good in Act 1. I'm now in Act 3, running around in the exact same areas. A "new" cave is just a part of the same old cave you've seen before, it even uses the same minimap! Very disappointing.

I still like the game. But I think issues like these are really holding it back from being a great game instead of just a good one.

Modifié par termokanden, 14 mars 2011 - 09:36 .


#73
AtreiyaN7

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The apostate mage Hawke is an exception, not the rule (regarding your issues with apostate Hawke running around). With your accomplishments and status as you make your way up in the world, the templars can't really touch you both because of your position and, I suspect, because trying to imprison the Champion in the Gallows with the other mages might stir people up. People already think she's tyrannical, but something like that might actually spark unrest, so it's probably easier for her to just monitor Hawke and his/her associates on the outside.

#74
termokanden

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Oh and for the record Bethany doesn't get away with being an apostate mage. Just wanted to add that.

#75
Grunk

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Main thing I agree with is what OP said later about lockpicking; I would rather see some kind of minigame accessible based on Cunning than just "either I can or I can't." I also feel that if a chest is locked, it should hold more than junk. At least two things of value ought to be in there. Otherwise, it's nothing more than arbitrarily locked.

I'm pretty happy with the game. I mainly just wish they had disguised the repetition of environments better. I'd like to be able to small talk companions, but that's a small fry issue. For my money, it's an 8.5 or 9. Probably an 8.5.