198 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Lord Athena wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Say what you will about DA elves' physical design, but their lore is unique/original and should stay that way. I know this has been said a bajillion times before but i'll repeat it. Before Tolkien popularized the tall, elegant, fair skinned elven archetype, elves came in many shapes and sizes in the old Germanic, Norse fairy tales. So there is no right or wrong way in portraying elves. Bioware's only fault in the elven matter is radically changing the elves facial structure, alienating players who enjoyed the original design, while creating a sense of discontinuity in the series.

Ok i'm really sick of this "BIOWARE ARE UNIQUE CRAP" Can you produce facts/proof that they are unique? Do you guys even know what the word unique means? Because your automatically spiting the word out as if it has no meaning? Tolkien didn't start it you they were always popularized like that in the myths. I like how you just say they came in different shapes and forms without the quotes to back it up? Did you even read the Old Norse elves? Because your speaking of them as if they were alien like and different from Tolkien elves?

Ok the only vaild thing you have said was the "So there is no right and wrong..... and Bioware's only fault......" You now finally sound like you know what your talking about and are noy just trolling like the others did.

I have yet to see an elven race that's been dominated by humans the way DA elves are, and serve as second class citizens in human dominated kingdoms, so they are unique to me. Norse elves are not the only representations and you clearly ignore the other representations of elves in folklore.(I know it's wikipedia but they had all the representations on elves on one page)

*correction* I almost forgot the Falmer got the business too, but devolved into troglodytes.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 juillet 2012 - 08:03 .

[The Hierophant]

*double post*

Modifié par The Hierophant, 22 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .

[Lord Athena]

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Athena wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Say what you will about DA elves' physical design, but their lore is unique/original and should stay that way. I know this has been said a bajillion times before but i'll repeat it. Before Tolkien popularized the tall, elegant, fair skinned elven archetype, elves came in many shapes and sizes in the old Germanic, Norse fairy tales. So there is no right or wrong way in portraying elves. Bioware's only fault in the elven matter is radically changing the elves facial structure, alienating players who enjoyed the original design, while creating a sense of discontinuity in the series.

Ok i'm really sick of this "BIOWARE ARE UNIQUE CRAP" Can you produce facts/proof that they are unique? Do you guys even know what the word unique means? Because your automatically spiting the word out as if it has no meaning? Tolkien didn't start it you they were always popularized like that in the myths. I like how you just say they came in different shapes and forms without the quotes to back it up? Did you even read the Old Norse elves? Because your speaking of them as if they were alien like and different from Tolkien elves?

Ok the only vaild thing you have said was the "So there is no right and wrong..... and Bioware's only fault......" You now finally sound like you know what your talking about and are noy just trolling like the others did.

I have yet to see an elven race that's been dominated by humans the way DA elves are, and serve as second class citizens in human dominated kingdoms, so they are unique to me. Norse elves are not the only representations and you clearly ignore the other representations of elves in folklore.(I know it's wikipedia but they had all the representations on elves on one page)

*correction* I almost forgot the Falmer got the business too, but devolved into troglodytes.

I agree on that and yes they are very unique on the second class citizens. But I will not agree to how they look, that is not very unique, but I love the background it's a nice change to see elves that were so powerful and yet they fall and become slaves.

Also I don't ignore the other version of elves, I have seen evil elves that disguise themselves as beautiful beings so they can trick the race of man into breeding with them. 

That was very creepy and unique, but since Bioware didn't say that about their elves in the first game, even though they are slaves (dales are not and are pureblood; just saying) they are still said to be more beautiful than the race of man and thats the reason why I and most people are complaining. Because it does'nt make sence? It contradicts it's own lore. And when they redesigned them they didn't even change the lore for the second game it still says they are more beautiful than humans? 

Modifié par Lord Athena, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:20 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Athena wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

...what? Bacteria can do horizontal gene transference, thus elves should look like humans? In what world does that follow? And whatever that world is, it wouldn't have to be the DA setting, because the laws of reality work rather differently there... furthermore, elves and humans look astonishingly alike in any case in DA2, with what must have been a very close common ancestor. The only differences are in height, build and some facial features.

Look it up? I'm not a science teacher, that was a quote. And it's true, we are related to bactria, plants and other animals. "In what world does that follow" Ours look it up, you don't have to make them be related but it would make more sence since they look like humans, the Bioware elves look like really bad versions of humans anyway thats not really unique.

Oh, I know we're all related, I just didn't know what it had to do with anything about making facial features look slightly more alike.

And whether or not it's unique, I do appreciate how elves were made to look a bit more distinct from humans.

I'm wondering how this is related to the DA2 elves too..

[The Hierophant]

Lord Athena wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Lord Athena wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Say what you will about DA elves' physical design, but their lore is unique/original and should stay that way. I know this has been said a bajillion times before but i'll repeat it. Before Tolkien popularized the tall, elegant, fair skinned elven archetype, elves came in many shapes and sizes in the old Germanic, Norse fairy tales. So there is no right or wrong way in portraying elves. Bioware's only fault in the elven matter is radically changing the elves facial structure, alienating players who enjoyed the original design, while creating a sense of discontinuity in the series.

Ok i'm really sick of this "BIOWARE ARE UNIQUE CRAP" Can you produce facts/proof that they are unique? Do you guys even know what the word unique means? Because your automatically spiting the word out as if it has no meaning? Tolkien didn't start it you they were always popularized like that in the myths. I like how you just say they came in different shapes and forms without the quotes to back it up? Did you even read the Old Norse elves? Because your speaking of them as if they were alien like and different from Tolkien elves?

Ok the only vaild thing you have said was the "So there is no right and wrong..... and Bioware's only fault......" You now finally sound like you know what your talking about and are noy just trolling like the others did.

I have yet to see an elven race that's been dominated by humans the way DA elves are, and serve as second class citizens in human dominated kingdoms, so they are unique to me. Norse elves are not the only representations and you clearly ignore the other representations of elves in folklore.(I know it's wikipedia but they had all the representations on elves on one page)

*correction* I almost forgot the Falmer got the business too, but devolved into troglodytes.

I agree on that and yes they are very unique on the second class citizens. But I will not agree to how they look, that is not very unique, but I love the background it's a nice change to see elves that were so powerful and yet they fall and become slaves.

Oh my fault for not clarifying, i meant unique in regards to their culture/history not their looks. Bio could have kept the elves original look , and introduced a new subspecies of elf with the new look they wanted.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Athena wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

...what? Bacteria can do horizontal gene transference, thus elves should look like humans? In what world does that follow? And whatever that world is, it wouldn't have to be the DA setting, because the laws of reality work rather differently there... furthermore, elves and humans look astonishingly alike in any case in DA2, with what must have been a very close common ancestor. The only differences are in height, build and some facial features.

Look it up? I'm not a science teacher, that was a quote. And it's true, we are related to bactria, plants and other animals. "In what world does that follow" Ours look it up, you don't have to make them be related but it would make more sence since they look like humans, the Bioware elves look like really bad versions of humans anyway thats not really unique.

Oh, I know we're all related, I just didn't know what it had to do with anything about making facial features look slightly more alike.

And whether or not it's unique, I do appreciate how elves were made to look a bit more distinct from humans.

I'm wondering how this is related to the DA2 elves too..

I'm wondering how this is related to DA at all...

[Lord Athena]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Lord Athena wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

...what? Bacteria can do horizontal gene transference, thus elves should look like humans? In what world does that follow? And whatever that world is, it wouldn't have to be the DA setting, because the laws of reality work rather differently there... furthermore, elves and humans look astonishingly alike in any case in DA2, with what must have been a very close common ancestor. The only differences are in height, build and some facial features.

Look it up? I'm not a science teacher, that was a quote. And it's true, we are related to bactria, plants and other animals. "In what world does that follow" Ours look it up, you don't have to make them be related but it would make more sence since they look like humans, the Bioware elves look like really bad versions of humans anyway thats not really unique.

Oh, I know we're all related, I just didn't know what it had to do with anything about making facial features look slightly more alike.

And whether or not it's unique, I do appreciate how elves were made to look a bit more distinct from humans.

I'm wondering how this is related to the DA2 elves too..

I'm wondering how this is related to DA at all...

Ok I admit I went way off topic  Don't judge me.... I should of said what Fae said that the games folklore makes no sence with the elf models. Can't make it more simple than that....

[Lord Athena]

Oh my fault for not clarifying, i meant unique in regards to their culture/history not their looks. Bio could have kept the elves original look , and introduced a new subspecies of elf with the new look they wanted.

Yeah thats what I think they should do! Subspecies damit why didn't I think of that! Your a genius! That reminds me of Bethesda elves. There was an ancient race of elves that decided to leave their brethen and settle in the cold lands of Skyrim. They looked just like the high elves and were very beautiful and knowlegeable people. But somehow their Empire fell and they became mindless ugly cruel creatures that looked like Moria orcs or something.

So if Bioware does that, you can be ugly and unique and I can dance around the forest like galadriel and seduce young humans!<3 And dirty old wizards....
 Everybody wins! Group hug everyone!


Being the Queen of the elves has it's advantages....

Modifié par Lord Athena, 22 juillet 2012 - 09:48 .

[SnakeStrike8]

The Hierophant wrote...

I have yet to see an elven race that's been dominated by humans the way DA elves are, and serve as second class citizens in human dominated kingdoms, so they are unique to me. Norse elves are not the only representations and you clearly ignore the other representations of elves in folklore.(I know it's wikipedia but they had all the representations on elves on one page)

*correction* I almost forgot the Falmer got the business too, but devolved into troglodytes.

If that is the case, then I'll direct you to the novels of the Witcehr fame, by Andrjez Sapowski. Popularized by the recent video games of the same name, but I believe the novels were being published in the 1970s.
They weren't especially popular in the USA, but they did the rounds in Europe and Asia for a while and garnered healthy attention for the manner in which elves and dwarves (elder races, in short) were thoroughly subjugated by humans. It was a very unique depiction, far removed from the idealized works of Tolkien, and yes, it must be said, much more graphic than anything Origins or DA 2 did.

On the subject, I thought the elves looked fine in DA 2, with the sole exception of Marethari. Her head was massive relative to the size of her neck and shoulders. I kepy imagining that she needed helping hands to get out of bed every morning. 

[Saberchic]

^Actually the Witcher series started in the 1990s. I am currently reading Blood of Elves and have read The Last Wish. I'm enjoying the series so far. I am glad that there are English fan translations though as not all of his work has been translated yet.

It's very true that the elves have been subjugated by humans in that series. However, it just doesn't seem to be a very widely portrayed dilemma. I see way more "elves have their lands and rulers and humans have theirs" versions than the "humans dominate elves" versions. And while the DA team was not the first to come up with this portrayal, it's still nice to see their version of it and explore what we can of it.

To keep this on topic: Yes, there was definitely something wrong with Marethari's head. Besides that oddity, I found very few elves that I would consider attractive in DA2.

Here's hoping the artists come up with something more visually appealing for everyone in the next game.

[Crypticqa]

To be honest, I didnt even consider DAO elves anything special, most of them had long face like a horse, in DA2 they look like aliens, but that is probably just me
Elves in Skyrim are way more uglier I think .

[Lord Athena]

Crypticqa wrote...

To be honest, I didnt even consider DAO elves anything special, most of them had long face like a horse, in DA2 they look like aliens, but that is probably just me
Elves in Skyrim are way more uglier I think .

It is possible to make Skyrim elves less ugly with some work, but yes they are pretty ugly. Why can't developers just give us normal presets? I'm just going to say it I'd rather play looking at least as close as human as possible. People may think thats stupid and boring but most people like it that way.  I think they should just add in another more alien race that we have never seen before and leave humans, elves and dwarfs alone.

But it's obvious Bioware is going to do whatever they want with them so talking about it is pointless. I really wish a Dev would pop on one of these forums and tell us. 

[CaptainBlackGold]

Lord Athena wrote...

Crypticqa wrote...

To be honest, I didnt even consider DAO elves anything special, most of them had long face like a horse, in DA2 they look like aliens, but that is probably just me
Elves in Skyrim are way more uglier I think .

ISNIP
But it's obvious Bioware is going to do whatever they want with them so talking about it is pointless. I really wish a Dev would pop on one of these forums and tell us. 

I think the Bioware development team IS in fact interested in hearing/reading what their customers think of their product, even if it is not always what they necessarily WANT to hear.

I suspect that the process may go something like; someone comes up with a design. Then that design is criticized in house and whoever makes the final decisions says something like "more this" or "less that" until they have a concept they think works and decide to "go with it."

It is only after the product is released and the customers get a chance to view the work and offer legitimate criticism that the "head honchos" can do a little evaluation about how their product was received. They want us to buy their product. They have every incentive to adjust their design decisions to make their product as appealing to as many of their customers as possible.

Therefore, threads like this, that never go away, that keep the team aware that many of their customers did not like a certain design decision serves a legitimate function - and since they just started production (we think) on the next iteration for DA, there is hopefully still time for someone to make some changes - like giving us elves that do not have giraffe necks, oversized heads, bulbous eyes, etc.

And as long as we the customer let them know in a civil, polite and respectful way that we really did not care for their previous attempt, they just may listen and try something different.

As consumers we have every right and in some respects, even a responsibility to let Bioware know what we think worked and what did not because in the main, we enjoy their games and want them to not only make more of them, but whenever possible, to improve them.

Obviously, they have their own methods of interpreting feedback and deciding which information will help them make a better, more successful game that will sell well, win them all sorts of prestiguous awards and shower them with money. And no one likes to have their hard work villified, insulted or harshly criticised - change is hard and admitting that you were wrong seems to be the ultimate corporate no-no.

Thus we need to continue to give them feeback in a way that will make our concerns credible and not allow our own passion and rhetoric to make us sound like just another bunch of whiney internet creeps that can be safely dismissed.

So I would like to see this thread continue to remain on the first page, and perhaps even explore some alternatives. If Bioware wants a "uniqure" look for their elves (a look that I personally think is unnecessary but what the hey..." then how can they improve on their present models? 

[Lord Athena]

CaptainBlackGold that speech really moved me. And even though Bioware are bad in the art department of races, they still have one heck of a storyline if they don't be jerks and ruin them with a bad ending or rush it. So I cross my fingers and hope they make the best DA3 that will be worth our money and praise. And I think we should keep talking about this until we at least hit page 100 or more.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Lord Athena - that avatar you use is Lady Aribeth (SIC) from NWN - and to me always epitomized what a beautiful elf female should look like. I loved that portrait and was disappointed that the actual character in game did not quite look like the picture.

Getting back on track; sometimes I do have to wonder why some people find the traditional, beautiful concept of elves to be boring. Are we really that jaded that we want something different, even if its not as good as the original?

I am all in favor of people liking different things - but will never understand the desire to fix something that simply isn't broken and mess it up in the process. Yet when I read some comments, I really would love to take a look at that person's MMPI - might explain a lot.

OK, that last bit was a cheap shot - no real offense intended. But saying "I like them because they are different" just does not translate to me as a sufficient reason. Why is "different" necessarily preferable?

I can understand an artist wanting to be "different" because they are trying to stand out from the crowd - you have to be edgy to be considered "artistic" sometimes. But good consumer art has to resonate with the public or it is simply ignored. I think that is perhaps what went wrong with the re-design of the elves - someone wanted to be "different" and hence, we got ET.

Let's see if we can keep this discussion going. I would still like to see other people's interpretation of elves that are exotic, unique and yes, even "different" and yet still be beautiful and alluring.

And apologies for any missing letters - my keyboard is sticky and old - which might describe the nut behind it as well... :-)

[CuriousArtemis]

Different can be good but beautiful. I think a great example of this are the asari in ME. In fact, I think the asari are a true work of art. They exhibit alienness but not to a point that we cannot relate to them or feel attracted towards them (physically). They illustrate the single-gender concept beautifully by having very athletic bodies but are still basically female in shape. (Not that I don't sometimes wish there were asari guys ... hubbah hubbah, they'd be yummy!) And their "otherness" is communicated to us via very unusual skin tones, skin markings, and "hair." They are like us, but not.

Elves should be like us, but not. Not necessarily "pretty humans with pointy ears," but not misshapen bulbous-eyed giraffe folk, either.

There are a few "very different" things about the new elves that I feel work. The ears are fine. The noses are fine. It's not so strange as to be ugly, and it's definitely not human. Some concepts were fine but didn't come out looking so good: being more slender than humans, for example. The women are TOO slender, almost freakishly so.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[MilaBanilla]

I thought they were odd looking at first but I love their new face structure. The only thing that disturbs me is their body structure. They remind of a child's body >.<

[Lord Athena]

Contradicting your own folklore is stupid. I think they rushed the game and destroyed their own stories about the elves. And I have a small hope that they will change it back or at least make them look almost normal again.

Modifié par Lord Athena, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[Elazul2k]

I have to agree the body type for the elves in DA2 is pretty bad. Someone forcefeed them all double bacon cheeseburgers for the love of god please!

[RyanSoup]

DA 2 Elves look like a Zelda throwback. Definitely wish they would have taken a more original route with their design, or just used the old design

[Rawgrim]

They look like they are copied and pasted in from some asian game. They stick out like a sore thumb.

[Lenmutt]

Celies wrote...

I like the new elves. In DA:O I couldn't see if a character was human or an elf at a glance, now it's much easier and Meerill are so cute ^^ Love the big eyes.

 

DAO elves were very puny very easy for me to tell them apart from humans 

"the elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty" 

Sten pretty muched nailed it. their size became very noticable to me when i played my first elf. Female massive armor two handed sword I looked abit silly  wielding agless which was much bigger then me haha 

but the way i see it Zevran was pretty handsome and in DA2 he is ET with hair.... Well either way Dwarves still have to most attrative females so no heavy loss! Come to think of the "new elves kinda remind me of sharlocks so  the look fits. 

Modifié par Lenmutt, 09 décembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Vincent Laww]

The new Elves have distorted features that make them look twisted. They're eyes are ridiculously huge, and they're body shapes are like a caricature. I hope they amend the new Elf appearance for something more palatable.

[RPGmom28]

I thought Zevran was sexy in DA:O, but icky and unappealing in DA2. Same for Alistair, though it's unrelated. As a straight woman, I can't easily determine the sexiness of the female elves in DA2, but I thought they were tiny to the extent that I felt sorry for them. Compared to Isabella's healthy, if overstacked, look, they reminded me of lollipops. BTW, I romanced Anders.