309 réponses à ce sujet

[ciphermind]

It doesn't matter if you have to pay for it, if BioWare makes it and endorses it as official DLC, then it's a matter of canon and not just "opinion". I am a little sad to hear people agreeing in great numbers, because I was hoping people would be past the 3 year old stage of having their stories end with, "And they all lived happily ever after."

Leandra's death upset me, and it was all the more upsetting to not only have her die, but die in such a gruesome way. At the end of that quest I actually cared about Hawke because the plot point is engaging on a personal level. How would I react if it was my mother? What would I do to the person who did that to her? Would I, in real life, be able to emotionally rebound?

If you want an engaging narrative sugar coated for your 1st grade literary insecurities get a mod that puts the NPC in the estate, but don't touch my canon.

[AlexXIV]

ciphermind wrote...

It doesn't matter if you have to pay for it, if BioWare makes it and endorses it as official DLC, then it's a matter of canon and not just "opinion". I am a little sad to hear people agreeing in great numbers, because I was hoping people would be past the 3 year old stage of having their stories end with, "And they all lived happily ever after."

Leandra's death upset me, and it was all the more upsetting to not only have her die, but die in such a gruesome way. At the end of that quest I actually cared about Hawke because the plot point is engaging on a personal level. How would I react if it was my mother? What would I do to the person who did that to her? Would I, in real life, be able to emotionally rebound?

If you want an engaging narrative sugar coated for your 1st grade literary insecurities get a mod that puts the NPC in the estate, but don't touch my canon.

Yeah insulting people based on age or grade is so mature. If you were representative for people who like this I just dislike it more. I am also sorry for you if you need this to feel emotionally involved.

Btw. I did neither buy Leliana's song or the Darkspawn Chronicles, And I wish I didn't buy GoA either. Canon is what you choose to be canon.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[Vicious]

But this is the sort of thinking that led to the "Save Everyone" option in the Redcliffe Quest, which ultimately became the quest option that everyone thought was the only "real" solution even though it was the least dramatic. I don't really intend to do that again, and I'm not about to re-write it simply because some people feel uncomfortable about it.

THANK YOU. I despised that quest in DA:O for that very reason, particularly that it IMPLIED that bad things would happen if I left Conner to go get the Circle, but nothing actually happened.

[AlexXIV]

Vicious wrote...

But this is the sort of thinking that led to the "Save Everyone" option in the Redcliffe Quest, which ultimately became the quest option that everyone thought was the only "real" solution even though it was the least dramatic. I don't really intend to do that again, and I'm not about to re-write it simply because some people feel uncomfortable about it.

THANK YOU. I despised that quest in DA:O for that very reason, particularly that it IMPLIED that bad things would happen if I left Conner to go get the Circle, but nothing actually happened.

It's a difference to say that bad things will happen and then they don't or if you have no way to change the outcome. If this is supposed to be an improvement from the Redcliffe quest then I can only say thank you, but no thank you.

[Rifneno]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I'll put it easy for you so you understand.

And I'll put it easy for you to understand:

We're not going to re-write our quests to suit someone's individual tastes. If you don't like something that much, that's what modding is for. That is the final word on the matter.

Rewriting would be a bad idea, but I do hope that you'll remember how so many players had such a distaste for this aspect of the story when you're considering a similar twist in a future story.  The fact that such dark things are included in these games are one of the reasons they're more interesting than the typical game's "bad guy kills lots of people" blandness, but there's also a limit to what the average person wants to actually see.  We're told about templars using their position of power to rape helpless mages but we don't actually see it.  Even if we lived in a society where showing such a thing wouldn't wind you up on a FOX News headline about alien sex, most of us just don't want to see that.

[thompsonaf]

Can't stand this quest. Its not that Leandra dies, I get it. But the way she was killed. It reminded me of the movie Evil Dead honestly.

[Andronic0s]

David Gaider wrote...

The quest isn't about saving her, after all, it's about putting a more personal face on the darker side of magic and the repercussions it can have on innocents.

I might be a bit late to this, but I just wanted to express my opinion that if this was the desired outcome I dont see how the quest acomplishes it. Hawke's mother gets killed by a psycho killer, magic was the tool of choice but it seems to me he would have done it anyways had magic not being there, heck magic actually helps me in this quest by giving me a last chance to talk with Hawke's mom before she passes away which woudnt be available without magic. So atlhough I was shocked I personally never blamed magic and don't see how anyone would, its like blaming knifes in real life and going in a vendetta against knife-makers after. I say this even as im considering siding with the templars as I aproach the end, due to the ratio of blood mage per mage in Kirkwall, its starting to make Minrathous sound like a nice place to live!

As for the matter of choice, I like to think that Bioware RPGs allow choice and have consequences (what is choice without consequence?) but the more I play the more it seems there are only 2 choices I'll ever make Templar/Mage siding and killing / not killing random NPCs who vanishes after and sends me a letter as a "consequence"

My biggest disapointment with DA2 is the lack of choice, I feel personally that I have no impact on the game at all, the good things I do is because a Writer told me to do it and the stuff I dont do is because a writer told me I couldn't do it. 

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I think this is necessary, otherwise it would be easy for a contemporary individual to side with the freedom of the mages by default, as modern Western sensibilities would more or less dictate.

This is absolutely true. One need only glance at your average templar vs. mage thread (previous to DA2 coming out, in particular) to see that most people fall on the side of the mages almost by default.

People articulated reasons why they didn't agree with the Chantry or the templars in regards to the mages, it was hardly choosing mages as a "default" option.

[lazuli]

It was a moving moment, I'll give it that. But I would have welcomed a bit more foreshadowing. I don't mean additional warning about Leandra being abducted. Instead, I would welcome more insights into Quentin and his obsession.

[Sanguinerin]

One lunatic and his dark desires does not represent an entire faction. For this reason, I still supported the mages. A mage blew up the Chantry. A mage killed Leandra. However, they're individuals. How could I possibly ever side with the templars when even one innocent mage in the circle tower would be culled because of the actions of few (or as the game portrays them, several) "bad mages."

I might have been more swayed to the dangers of magic if a fight ensued and Leandra was unintentionally caught in the crossfire. If a rogue spell during the fight happened to go flying through the air and strike her. That's a better representation of just how terrible magic can be--so wild and careless, see what it can do when not controlled?

That might justify why mages must be in the tower. For the same reason why little Wynne should go to the tower because her lighting that boy's hair on fire as a little girl--she lacked proper discipline.

If you want to show how dangerous magic is, it should be shown as reckless. Crazy fanatics don't make for good representations. In my opinion, they never do. If I had to kill Cullen for siding with the mages, I would think twice. However, I side with the mages because the idea of killing all because of the actions of a few is always inherently wrong. Funny enough, the only way to visibly save mages in the end battle is to side with the templars, as my reloaded previous save to just before the battle allowed me to see.

The funny thing about reloading from past saves to make a decision? It works both ways. Even if I got the desired outcome, sometimes I'm just as curious to see what might have happened otherwise. I'm not sure if that's something Gaider or the developers also might take into consideration as a possibility.

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

So the quest in which Leandra dies bothers me to no end. For various reasons, but let me stay polite and just say I don't want it in my game and playthrough. So I wonder how a DLC that 'fixes' this would be recieved by players. Obviously most people would save her if they could, and that's more or less the reason why this option is not in the game.

I think a DLC would be a good idea because for once, Bioware is probably not just going to patch it or whatever because the game is done and they won't want to spend money on it unneccessarily. Also I think alot of people would actually buy it, and those who don't want the option to save her can just not buy the DLC. Last but not least the whole Hawke family involvment in DA2 is a bit thin. So more dialogues and maybe even a short quest or two in the last chapter after Hawke has become the Champion would not really be a bad thing to have.

I would much rather bioware put their funding into something that is actually awesome, saving leandra isn't at all awesome.. Didn't like her anyway and dont like this idea lol

[FedericoV]

All that remains is the better "secondary quest" of the game. Don't touch it.

Having played as an apostate mage who is pro-mage and against the institution of the circle/templars (as it is), it was really interesting to play that quest because it shadowed most of my prejudices on the political situation of Kirkwall and showed me "mage gone wrong" in a very close and effective way. The lack of choice was right.

Still, at the end... I sided with the chantry because even if only few of them were innocent and I could not trust Orsino, protecting the few innocents was the right thing to do as a Mage (mind, only because there wasn't a third neutral option to take).

I would have only added the scene of Leandra's funeral (on an unrelated not, I allways thought that a funeral would be a great way to start a fantasy story ).

[lazuli]

FedericoV wrote...

All that remains is the better "secondary quest" of the game. Don't touch it.

No, it's a main quest.  You cannot complete the game without finishing "All that Remains."

Modifié par lazuli, 31 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Alexein]

If we wanted to use this quest to show the dark side of magic then it might have been better to have the death as a SIDE EFFECT of blood magic rather than an intentional cause.


For example, we do not blame scientists for nuclear weapons, nor do we call nuclear weapons and the deaths they cause the "Dark side" of science. Because nuclear weapons require an intentional action. Someone must knowingly and willingly press a button or give an order to use them...we hold THAT person responsible, not the science. Nuclear weapons are the "dark side" of WAR, rather than science.

... But nuclear *power* in reactors we do fear. Not because of the people, we know they have the best intentions, but because of the side effects and possibility of accidents. We fear nuclear technology more for its accidental mishaps, not its intentional ones. Just look at the news in japan, people are blaming scientists and public policy in that case. Nuclear accidents are the "dark side" of science, and we blame science when they happen. (deservedly or not)

So if the point of the quest was to connect blood magic with Leandra's death, rather than connect a psycho killer with Leandra's death, it might have been better to make it an accident. To show it was specifically blood magic's fault, not the person.

Who knows, maybe even make the blood mage friendly and "good" but show that the magic was so incredibly dangerous that it caused deaths even though all good intentions were applied.

Then I would blame the *magic* for the death, and not the mage.

Might make us side with the templars more to show the mages are so incredibly stupid or overconfident to handle something so dangerous that it causes deaths even when they don't want it to. 

Modifié par Alexein, 31 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[LobselVith8]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Lawlita wrote...

Meredith citing the mom as an argument was still pretty cold, though.

But, 100% on the money. Seriously. Ask yourself this:

What mages did you encounter in the game that did NOT turn to Blood Magic vs what mages you encountered did?

Seriously. Take a moment to think about this carefully.

Still think they're all innocent puppies that need saving?

No one claimed they were "innocent puppies" that needed saving, people addressed that they are people who shouldn't be blamed for the actions of a few. Out of hundreds or thousands of mages in the Kirkwall Circle, we encounter a fraction of them on the outside. In fact, one of the escaped mages - Evelina - was a sane mage when she came to Kirkwall from the Ferelden Circle, and was out of her mind when Meredith ordered us to hunt her down in On the Loose. Huon was also sane before he was taken from the Alienage and thrown into the Gallows Prison. In an enviornment where mages are being raped, tortured, forcibly made tranquil even when it's illegal, and killed, I don't see this as a compelling reason to support the templars in committing "The Final Solution" against the mages of Kirkwall. Should we help Knight-Commander Meredith commit genocide against a plethora of men, women, and children who are completely innocent of the reason behind the Rite of Annulment?

[Sanguinerin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Lawlita wrote...

Meredith citing the mom as an argument was still pretty cold, though.

But, 100% on the money. Seriously. Ask yourself this:

What mages did you encounter in the game that did NOT turn to Blood Magic vs what mages you encountered did?

Seriously. Take a moment to think about this carefully.

Still think they're all innocent puppies that need saving?

No one claimed they were "innocent puppies" that needed saving, people addressed that they are people who shouldn't be blamed for the actions of a few. Out of hundreds or thousands of mages in the Kirkwall Circle, we encounter a fraction of them on the outside. In fact, one of the escaped mages - Evelina - was a sane mage when she came to Kirkwall from the Ferelden Circle, and was out of her mind when Meredith ordered us to hunt her down in On the Loose. Huon was also sane before he was taken from the Alienage and thrown into the Gallows Prison. In an enviornment where mages are being raped, tortured, forcibly made tranquil even when it's illegal, and killed, I don't see this as a compelling reason to support the templars in committing "The Final Solution" against the mages of Kirkwall. Should we help Knight-Commander Meredith commit genocide against a plethora of men, women, and children who are completely innocent of the reason behind the Rite of Annulment?

Indeed. Even if the only examples we saw happened to be the terrible ones, there are still countless other mages who are guilty of nothing but being a mage. I don't think BioWare will ever sway me to support annulling an entire Circle because some mages created havoc. That might be why others also pre-dominantly side with the mages over the templars. It isn't justice to annul them. It isn't moral to annul them. Unless the developers clearly state that every single mage in the entire Circle is a blood mage or summoning demons, and back that up with 100% absolute fact, then I can't agree with annulment. If there is one mage out of 100 in the Circle that is the only non-blood mage, I would likely stand with the blood mages against Meredith if she denied sparing the one innocent mage.

I don't agree with killing innocents and neither do my characters. When given the choice, I spare people. The fact that so many of the mages are resorting to blood magic as a final act of desperation because they're being so hard-pressed by Meredith and the templars only makes them far more tragic. Yes, this mage is using blood magic, but they were fairly content living peacefully within the Circle until the fear of being destroyed just for who they were became so clear that it felt like the only option. The desperation that they're driven to, being pushed into exactly what people fear about them, makes them all the more compelling and innocent. Even with mages like Quentin.

Alexein wrote...

If we wanted to use this quest to show the dark side of magic then it might have been better to have the death as a SIDE EFFECT of blood magic rather than an intentional cause.


For example, we do not blame scientists for nuclear weapons, nor do we call nuclear weapons and the deaths they cause the "Dark side" of science. Because nuclear weapons require an intentional action. Someone must knowingly and willingly press a button or give an order to use them...we hold THAT person responsible, not the science. Nuclear weapons are the "dark side" of WAR, rather than science. 

... But nuclear *power* in reactors we do fear. Not because of the people, we know they have the best intentions, but because of the side effects and possibility of accidents. We fear nuclear technology more for its accidental mishaps, not its intentional ones. Just look at the news in japan, people are blaming scientists and public policy in that case. Nuclear accidents are the "dark side" of science, and we blame science when they happen. (deservedly or not) 

So if the point of the quest was to connect blood magic with Leandra's death, rather than connect a psycho killer with Leandra's death, it might have been better to make it an accident. To show it was specifically blood magic's fault, not the person.

Who knows, maybe even make the blood mage friendly and "good" but show that the magic was so incredibly dangerous that it caused deaths even though all good intentions were applied.

Then I would blame the *magic* for the death, and not the mage. 

Might make us side with the templars more to show the mages are so incredibly stupid or overconfident to handle something so dangerous that it causes deaths even when they don't want it to. 

I wrote about this as well. It would have been far more compelling if Leandra was killed as a side-effect of blood magic--or even magic in general--than to have her intentionally killed by a madman. Having a killer mage who is obviously not mentally stable kill a woman doesn't condemn mages. Having her caught in a fight and accidently killed shows just how dangerous and wild magic can be, and how it must be contained or else--look!--innocents can be killed even without the intent.

Meredith would have far more sway with my Hawke on an emotional level if she said something like this: "Remember how your mother got caught in the flames? We can't have mages running amok in the streets! This is what they'll do. One wrong spell and look what can happen!"

Rather than being a cold witch and saying something along the lines of, "Remember that mage who intentionally killed your mother? The crazy one? Yeah, mages should be contained."

They're not all crazy. Crazy rogues and warriors do terrible things as well. But showing how wild magic can be is simply far more compelling of a reason.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 31 mars 2011 - 07:10 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Yes if I understood it right they had a version of the quest where Leandra could be saved, but everyone picked to save her in the tests. So actually they should have the material somewhere which should make it even easier to implement it again.

The problem wasn't that "everyone picked to save her". It was that everyone thought they had to save her, and would reload/re-do the quest until the got the outcome that was perceived as the most optimum-- even if the result when Leandra dies is more dramatic and has more of an impact on the larger story.

The quest isn't about saving her, after all, it's about putting a more personal face on the darker side of magic and the repercussions it can have on innocents.

If someone doesn't like it, that's fine. Up to you. But DLC is created to add content, not to skip it-- and, no, there is no material anywhere to make this easy to implement. Dialogue after Act 2 assumes that your mother is dead. Period. Sorry, but that's simply the way it is.

So the reason Varric wasn't a love interest was because everyone had to romance him?

[Weltenschlange]

Sorry to interrupt guys, but I have question concerning the "All That Remains"-quest.

Considering that Dr. Frankenstein Quentin created his corpse bride by stitching together select body parts of several dead women and then animating the result with magic, how can it be that this zombie acts and talks as if it were Leandra?!?

I liked the quest but it was somewhat cheapened for me by the fact that Hawke has a conversation with the decaying head of her dead mother. It also could have all kinds of unfortunate implications regarding the magic lore and the nature of identity in TheDAS.

If this was already discussed or even graced with an official comment, could someone please be so kind to give me a short summary. Thank you very much.

[AlexXIV]

Weltenschlange wrote...

Sorry to interrupt guys, but I have question concerning the "All That Remains"-quest.

Considering that Dr. Frankenstein Quentin created his corpse bride by stitching together select body parts of several dead women and then animating the result with magic, how can it be that this zombie acts and talks as if it were Leandra?!?

I liked the quest but it was somewhat cheapened for me by the fact that Hawke has a conversation with the decaying head of her dead mother. It also could have all kinds of unfortunate implications regarding the magic lore and the nature of identity in TheDAS.

If this was already discussed or even graced with an official comment, could someone please be so kind to give me a short summary. Thank you very much.

It will not be graced with an official comment because it is a bunch of made up random BS which isn't even founded in the lore. Unless magic can conserve body parts for years and actually revive dead people. Or parts of them, whatever.

[Crext]

Seriously, the game companies better stop killing our parents! It's getting old. Especially the cruel and pointless kind.

I am refering to Fallout 3's Dad: "Hold on, all I have to do to stay alive is give you this thing, and who knows, you people might even not be the bad guys for what I know, and in the end everyone will benefith as the secrets for purifing gets all known, or stolen in the future or whatever. Instead I am going Kamikaze!"

Fallout 3's Hero: "Nooo, dad! Why, your a doctor, your not an idiot, why were'nt you more rational?! Pluss I killed dusins of these people just coming here, why the hell did you think you were saving me by killing 3 guys?!"

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Crext wrote...

Seriously, the game companies better stop killing our parents! It's getting old. Especially the cruel and pointless kind.

I am refering to Fallout 3's Dad: "Hold on, all I have to do to stay alive is give you this thing, and who knows, you people might even not be the bad guys for what I know, and in the end everyone will benefith as the secrets for purifing gets all known, or stolen in the future or whatever. Instead I am going Kamikaze!"

Fallout 3's Hero: "Nooo, dad! Why, your a doctor, your not an idiot, why were'nt you more rational?! Pluss I killed dusins of these people just coming here, why the hell did you think you were saving me by killing 3 guys?!"

Liam dad did not deserve that fate.D=

[Asenkah]

A DLC for this wouldn't make sense and I wouldn't want a cheap out from her death in a timely and heroic saving. I wanted to feel the impact of this even though it felt a little flat due to subdued reactions from Hawke and party. I really wanted a bigger reaction from Hawke here especially after losing one or possibly both siblings at this point. I wanted to see Hawke bawling/screaming for help from Merril (in party at the time) or to have someone get Anders to help try and save her. Possibly go so far as to have one of them offer up using blood magic in a failed attempt to do so and the cost to try would have been similar to Isolde from DAO to save her son. Place that decision on me of taking another's life to save my mothers which is what the mage was doing in the first place and see if people wen't down that road as an alternative method of "saving" her.


I agree that the way the quest plays out it's next to impossible to feel that magic by itself is at fault here and not the individual wielding it due to their nature. Having it be an accident or unintended consequence would have better produced the desired effect.

[Deathofhams]

While I did really like the quest, some kind of choice related to it would of been nice. Maybe, if you choose the mages, have Orsino confess to you just before the end of the game ("just in case we die here..."), and try and explain himself ("I was doing it for the good of the mages! I didn't know what he was doing!), and then you could choose whether or not to punish him for it/storm out and go join the Templars. Might have been a better way to lead into his sudden Harvester-isation.

[Rykoth]

So it makes you uncomfortable.

Good.

As an aspiring writer, one thing I've learned, especially in college creative writing classes.... if you can elicit any emotional responses from fiction, you have succeeded. If that means giving a damn about the main character or being upset that a favorite character died? Bravo.

BTW OP, Authors don't rewrite whole chapters of novels just because a few folks were made uncomfortable. Why is this any different?

[TheRealJayDee]

David Gaider wrote...

Correct. It's not, however, about what the player wants to do.

 
Okay…
 

David Gaider wrote...
In this case, it's not the story that needs to be told.

If you're of the opinion that every story should have an outcome that the player can directly control-- I'm not going to argue with you. Not everyone is going to like that sort of tale, and certainly I think there's a limited amount of that you can really do inside a game. But this is the sort of thinking that led to the "Save Everyone" option in the Redcliffe Quest, which ultimately became the quest option that everyone thought was the only "real" solution even though it was the least dramatic. I don't really intend to do that again, and I'm not about to re-write it simply because some people feel uncomfortable about it.

I didn't save everyone on my first playthrough, because I didn't know I could. Because my character didn't know. My character did what he thought was the best thing to do at that moment, which was choosing Connor's life over Isolde's. It was one of the decisions that haunted me and my character for the rest of the story. It was really tough and impactful. My character only wanted to do the right thing, but given the situation at hand he just couldn't .

My second character decided to give the circle approach a try, because he was overconfident and certain he could deal with whatever sitaution may arise in Redcliffe during his travel to the tower. He ended up getting the 'better' solution, although unlike the first character he didn't give a damn about either the boy or his mother.

My racist elven warrior just killed Connor without thinking twice.

So what is my point? Besides the fact that I can't really argue with you about what story you wanted to tell, I just don’t think it feels right to have no influence at all about the outcome of an event like Leandra’s disappearance/murder or the whole white lily killer thing at that. Not only because DA seemed like an RPG franchise that focused on choices and consequences, but simply because of mere potential for replayability and options for actual roleplaying.
 
As to the actual quest: it had the potential to be one of my favourite quests in the game, but in the end I was mostly disappointed. The start of the quest, the moment I realized why Leandra wasn’t at home was one of the most gripping moments for me in DA2. When I started to chase after her I was really on the edge of my seat, all I could think was “Why did I spare this bastard Du Puis? Please don’t be dead!”. When I entered the foundry it was “Don’t let me be too late!”. When I finally confronted the killer I was just like “…who the hell is this? Why did he do that?” Then the magically created Frankenstein’s monster thing with my mother’s face (and only that) attached to it gave me a rather long farewell speech!? How…? When I then found out that nothing my character did or could have done had any influence on Leandra’s fate I just went “okay, whatever…”.
 
The family component of the game as a whole turned out to be a major disappointment for me:
 
My brother Carver was smashed by an Ogre. Why? Because I chose to be a warrior. No chance of preventing his death. The same ogre that killed him was killed himself shortly thereafter, along with a few dozen darkspawn. By three people about as strong, resilient, trained and equipped as Carver had been. Luckily the ogre forgot how to grab…
 
My sister Bethany died in the Deep Roads. Why? Because I chose to take her with me. And because apparently the darkspawn spread the taint through crossbow bolts. Hawke and Aveline made sure that Bethany wasn’t hit by a darkspawn in melee combat even once during the whole expedition. There was no indication at any point she got tainted until she collapsed. Bummer! (it certainly didn’t help me as player to be emotionally invested that due to some bug her appearance changed during her last moments.) Leaving all the best mage equipment with her body in the Deep Roads would also have been a decision I’d like to have made myself.
 
And then the mother. Murdered (and partially reused) by a sick serial killer. Why? Because she looked like someone and in all the years I never told her about the white lily case. Did I kill or spare Gascard Du Puis? Doesn’t matter.
 
What bothers me the most about these three deaths is that none of them feels in any way related to the main conflict of the game, templars versus mages. My siblings were both killed by darkspawn, and my mother by a psychopath who happened to be a mage. None of it had any influence on my stance in the main conflict. If anything it made me wanna join the Wardens. 
 
Also: I wasn’t happy about the “your choice of class determines which of your siblings lives” approach when I first heard about it, but I accepted that there were story reasons for that. After having played the game now I mostly fail to understand why this was done as it was. Having Carver with me in my first playthrough instead of Bethany really wouldn’t have made much of a difference, and after the first act either one of them would have been dead anyway. Even if they lived, they would have been away for a large part of the game. I really didn't get the feeling a Hawke apostate was absolutely neccessary for story.
 
I could rant on, but this is already way longer than I intended. I’ll probably use parts of this for the review I never got done so far…