309 réponses à ce sujet

[Andronic0s]

Exactly TheRealJayDee, I didn't had a problem with the fact that she died, I could have even swallowed the way in which she died as long as I felt it was my fault for something I did earlier in the game, instead I just felt the heavy hand of the storyteller smacking me in the face as it did for the whole game.
Want to stop the qunari insurrection before it begins? you cant, want to save your mother? you cant, want to prevent your brother/sister from vanishing from the game? you cant, want to keep the chantry from getting blown up? you can't...

Modifié par Andronic0s, 31 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[Rifneno]

Rykoth wrote...

So it makes you uncomfortable.

Good.

As an aspiring writer, one thing I've learned, especially in college creative writing classes.... if you can elicit any emotional responses from fiction, you have succeeded. If that means giving a damn about the main character or being upset that a favorite character died? Bravo.

And as one myself, I've never believed that tired old line.  There's good emotional response, and bad emotional response.  If someone walks away with such a distaste from your work and will avoid future works, that is not a good thing.  Nor do I believe any professor who's teaching because he couldn't make it in the field when he says it's so.

This is a fair example of that.  Many people do enjoy the type of emotion that this quest invokes.  I compare it to horror movies or books.  These have a large following, but most people who are not among that following have a strong aversion to it.  A scene that works extremely well for Steven King will not go over so well on a family sitcom.  DA2 is not marketed as horror and a lot of people were unpleasantly surprised to see it included.  We have a right to be.

I also want to point out that audio-visual mediums (such as movies or video games) are different than purely written works.  There are more factors in the audience's response.  The visual presentation factors in, as does the music and if applicable, the voice acting.  The VA's for this quest did a simply incredible job.  The dread and urgency in Hawke's voice really drives it home.  I haven't paid close attention to the music, but people grossly underestimate the effect background music has on the way they percieve things.  I recall a friend of mine talking to me about a study on this subject.  The most notable case they had was testing audiences shown the original Star Wars before music was added had a fairly "Eh.  It's pretty good." reaction.  Whereas after the brilliant music pieces were added, the exact same scenes got "Incredible!  Epic!" reactions.  Of course, I don't mean to diminish the contributions of writing staff.  I'm simply saying they're not in it alone.

[Lithuasil]

Rifneno wrote...
DA2 is not marketed as horror and a lot of people were unpleasantly surprised to see it included. We have a right to be.

DA2 was marketed as a Rpg. A game, where you play a role. The concept, that all Crpgs are about "A winnar is you" pads on the players back, and gold medals for success and applied heroism, is one made by the consumers, not one covered by the term "rpg". And it's certainly not one that has improved writing for crpgs in the past, in fact the exact opposite.

[Rifneno]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
DA2 is not marketed as horror and a lot of people were unpleasantly surprised to see it included. We have a right to be.

DA2 was marketed as a Rpg. A game, where you play a role. The concept, that all Crpgs are about "A winnar is you" pads on the players back, and gold medals for success and applied heroism, is one made by the consumers, not one covered by the term "rpg". And it's certainly not one that has improved writing for crpgs in the past, in fact the exact opposite.

It's not even remotely about that.  If anything, this game is "A loser is you."  Hawke's life is one tragedy after another through no fault of their own.  But like I said, it's not about that.  Very few people are angry that Leandra dies.  A lot of people are angry that she dies in one of the most disturbing manners possible.  It is simply sick.  We didn't sign on for sick.  DAO was marketed as a dark fantasy and we didn't have to see what Howe thought would be fun to do with mama Cousland.  They're also angry, as said, that one of the few actual choices we had that would've made a difference was taken out because people cared enough to do it.

[Andronic0s]

Lithuasil wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
DA2 is not marketed as horror and a lot of people were unpleasantly surprised to see it included. We have a right to be.

DA2 was marketed as a Rpg. A game, where you play a role. The concept, that all Crpgs are about "A winnar is you" pads on the players back, and gold medals for success and applied heroism, is one made by the consumers, not one covered by the term "rpg". And it's certainly not one that has improved writing for crpgs in the past, in fact the exact opposite.

To me an RPG game means that I can influence the world around me and my decisions carry weight in the world otherwise playing Uncharted 2 or God of War 3 would be Roleplaying games since the immersion for those games is pretty amazing. I think some people like me are more irked at the lack of oportunity to roleplay in this quest and in the game in general (unless you count choosing a dialogue option that changes nothing "roleplay")

[Lithuasil]

And where on a game marketed as "dark fantasy" did you find the contract saying "please do not include any images or depictions that might upset or disturb me"?

[Rifneno]

Lithuasil wrote...

And where on a game marketed as "dark fantasy" did you find the contract saying "please do not include any images or depictions that might upset or disturb me"?

When you have to resort to hostility, it's a good sign to step away from a debate.  Nothing good ever comes of it.  Just saying.  Anyway, I actually haven't seen DA2 marketed that way.  I said I saw DAO marketed that way, and they didn't go nearly this far there.  We had no reason to think they would.  Is it within their rights to?  Of course.  It's also within a consumer's rights to voice a dissatisfaction with an aspect of a product.

[Alexein]

Rykoth wrote...

So it makes you uncomfortable.

Good.

As an aspiring writer, one thing I've learned, especially in college creative writing classes.... if you can elicit any emotional responses from fiction, you have succeeded. If that means giving a damn about the main character or being upset that a favorite character died? Bravo.

By this stupid logic if you write a book advocating pedophilia, racism, baby killing, mass murder, etc. etc.etc. as good things for humanity, even if its from fictional stories. And everyone that reads it has... lets say.... an "emotional" response to your crud... you've done a good thing?

You make me sick.

But ofcourse you want that don't you? Bravo.
There is a word for people like you, "Troll".

Modifié par Alexein, 01 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[Lithuasil]

I am not voicing hostility. You'd notice if I did. What I am saying is, people here aren't voicing their dissatisfaction. If you like your dark fantasy with more milk, there's lots of games doing that. What you are claiming, is that the developer was *wrong* to do something, and the reason you give, is an emotional response, that was entirely intended.

[Horus Blackheart]

All i would say to the writting team is having the outcome of the quest line hardwired in the way it was with no real explanation in game other than its dark and stuff happens is really jaring. There is more than one example in the game as well which I think is the issue for me.

The first time you play it does what was intended its really inpactfull second time you play its just blah. Its not the event thats blah even its, more that it plays out the same way no matter your choices. With out going in to spoiler mode to much I get there has to be a conflict at point C but do the catlist for that event have to be exactly the same regaurdless? Ca'nt you have a difrent npc set it off for example? that would make more sense. perticularly during the end game.

just my thoughts.

[Sanguinerin]

Rykoth wrote...

So it makes you uncomfortable.

Good.

As an aspiring writer, one thing I've learned, especially in college creative writing classes.... if you can elicit any emotional responses from fiction, you have succeeded. If that means giving a damn about the main character or being upset that a favorite character died? Bravo.

BTW OP, Authors don't rewrite whole chapters of novels just because a few folks were made uncomfortable. Why is this any different?

Emotional reactions to fiction can be a good thing. However, you're ignoring those of us genuinely arguing how utterly distasteful or pointless this quest appeared. I, as well as others, do not agree that the intention of the quest as it was described by David Gaider was effective. Some of us have even given examples of possible improvement. I wasn't uncomfortable. I wasn't upset. I wasn't sad. I sat there thinking, "wow, really?"

Frankenstein's monster mother was just terrible in general, although I would have accepted it if it executed a point well. In my opinion--and obviously in the opinion of other people--it didn't do that. There is no way I would ever consider this as an example of dark magic and why mages should be contained. This is an example of why lunatics shouldn't be supported. A better example of why magic should be contained is having Leandra killed indirectly or unintentionally by magic, showing exactly how dangerous or wild it could be.

I'm nowhere near uncomfortable. In fact, there was so much death in Dragon Age II that I honestly stopped caring. My reaction was close to, "oh look, someone else is dead and there was nothing that I could possibly do about it."

Then I moved on, and I just can't bring myself to play the game again. Why put myself through all of the inevitable again? I know what happens. I know there's absolutely nothing I can do. Sitting through that once is enough. In my opinion, the only way to rectify this game in particular would be to add DLC that amends quests--not to say completely re-writing them--but instead giving off a better sense of choice and consequence.

I don't care if Leandra always has to die, but surely there are other ways to make these plot deaths that wouldn't make the game feel so lifeless and stale. There's only so many times I can watch everyone die in the same way.

Save Leandra, and Aveline or Donnic are killed later while hunting down Quentin. I'm fine with difficult choices leading to various consequences, where perhaps letting your mother die is the best possible alternative because only one person dies. Instead, if you save her, someone else close to you or someone close to one of your friends, they're the ones who suffer.

The game would be far more rewarding if you truly had to sit and weigh consequences like that. Save your mother, but the villain escapes to kill again.

This is all my strictly my opinion, of course. There are just so many times I can suffer the same consequences though, and with Dragon Age II, that limiting number is one time.

[Grailchaser]

I have no real objections to the plot of this quest except for its ending. If I don't get to save Leandra, my character should at least be able to grieve for her. Its all stiff upper lip stuff and I hate it.

Lets face it, if your mother was hacked to death and reanimated by a wacko mage, wouldn't you either rage uncontrollably and burn the house down, or just fall into a heap and ball your eyes out?

Not, "I'm heartbroken, of course..."

A funeral would have been a nice touch too.

[Horus Blackheart]

well put HallowedWarden that's basicly what I was aiming for with my coments earler but you nailed it.

[Sanguinerin]

scyphozoa wrote...

Grailchaser wrote...
A funeral would have been a nice touch too.

Great idea! A funeral would have been excellent for both verisimilitude, and for allowing the player to eulegize his mother. Great speaking dynamic that I don't think has ever been done in a BW game.

Also, the single greatest moment in Lost Odyssey [SPOILER] is a funeral scene. Its brilliant and heartwrenching.

Indeed, there wasn't enough depth to grief. We had that little scene with a companion that was somewhat nice. But when my mage saw Carver again, there was no chance to grieve together. When Gamlen admitted to being the only family we had left, there was no chance to bond with him. The family dynamic was touched on, but the exploration of it barely broke the surface.

Edit: I just thought of another alternative that would be preferable. Your mother was sort of the cause of the first sibling dying by the ogre, as the sibling in question was defending her. If she threw herself between Hawke and Quentin and was killed that way... That would probably get to me far more as well.

I just can't get over the Frankenstein's monster scene. As someone else mentioned, the body parts were some years old. The creature wasn't Leandra, so how it was able to speak so clearly and eloquently just like Leandra--that makes no sense. Having her be a monster in the scene just breaks it, and I don't think I could ever avoid hitting the "esc" key to skip through it.

Having her bleeding out and about to die because of the ritual would be even more frightening. Most of my distaste is the monster bit in general, coupled with everything else I've been speaking about.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 01 avril 2011 - 03:58 .

[Rifneno]

Alexein wrote...

But ofcourse you want that don't you? Bravo.
There is a word for people like you, "Troll".

No, actually it's a pretty commonly held belief among writers.  I disagree with it for reasons I already voiced, but he's not trolling.

Lithuasil wrote...

I am not voicing hostility. You'd notice if I did.

Only the first time.

What I am saying is, people here aren't voicing their dissatisfaction. If you like your dark fantasy with more milk, there's lots of games doing that. What you are claiming, is that the developer was *wrong* to do something, and the reason you give, is an emotional response, that was entirely intended.

"Disgust" was not the response I believe they intended.  If that's the emotion intended, I dare say they should set their sights a little higher than something a rancid bucket of roaches can accomplish.

Grailchaser wrote...

I have no real objections to the plot of this quest except for its ending. If I don't get to save Leandra, my character should at least be able to grieve for her. Its all stiff upper lip stuff and I hate it.

Lets face it, if your mother was hacked to death and reanimated by a wacko mage, wouldn't you either rage uncontrollably and burn the house down, or just fall into a heap and ball your eyes out?

Not, "I'm heartbroken, of course..."

A funeral would have been a nice touch too.

So true.  It would've been much better if that quest was an act ender so at least there's a reason that 10 minutes later Hawke is out doing the vigilante bit.  Most people that went through that would wind up an alcoholic.  If they're lucky.  Hawke just goes on the next day like it never happened, save for a couple interactions with party members.  In fact the next quest where the viscount's son is killed is locked until Hawke's mother dies.  There is no excuse in the fact Hawke doesn't voice sympathy to him noting that his/her mother was also murdered only a few days prior.

[bd223437]

I think it's fascinating to read this thread. I'm very impressed that this quest had such an impact on so many people. For me, Leandra was such an improbable character from the prologue on that I found myself hopping on the Carver bandwagon. The life she was trying to live had no place for her children in it. Her death, either the loss or the manner in which it came about, failed to elicit any emotional response from me. Allow me to elaborate.

Her distinct lack of maternal instincts for the sacrificial sibling in the prologue immediately threw me out of believing she was even distantly related to or remotely concerned with the Hawke children. She's in arm's reach of the Twin-to-Die and lets them charge headlong into a hopeless situation? Then she yells at the older sibling that dove out of the way of the charge to the far side of the plateau for letting the Twin run off? This reaction seemed unrealistic even just based solely on the positioning of the entire group. Shouldn't she, you know, have needed some consoling for the guilt she feels at standing around instead of stopping her nearby child from committing what amounted to suicide? Had Hawke and the suicide sibling been standing in the positions Leandra and said sibling were that reaction would have at least made sense to me.

Then we get to Templar central despite the reasonable objections of the children regarding the threat Templars represent (highlighted, solidified and personified by Ser Wesley) and, after what we are lead to believe is a life on the fringe of society trying desperately not to draw attention to themselves, what does dear Leandra do? Oh yes, tries to get the estate back and reestablish the family's place in Kirkwall's notable high society. Not only get the estate back, but meet with the viscount and establish it as her family home, the family that was notorious for having magic running in the blood line.

Couple her lack of maternal instincts with her social climbing shrew status and her relegation to home base NPC and she seems of so little consequence that, for me, it constantly called into question why Hawke was so bent on catering to her whims. From my perspective she was a mad woman that made me long for Hawke to borrow the Warden's line to Keili in the Circle tower, "clearly these events have unhinged you". Someone needed to remind her she's setting herself up to lose another child by putting the family on display.

It strikes me that her death could have been a more useful tool in the prologue if she shoved the nearby twin out of the way of the ogre thereby saving them and getting herself killed. The one she saved would have felt guilt; the one that was physically closer to Hawke could have felt grief or a twinge of resentment that the survivor hadn't helped Leandra. It could have served to bring the Hawke children closer together while fleshing them out. Let's carry on to Kirkwall as Leandra's dying wish whether it was to assuage guilt or honor someone they loved, the motivations would have been interesting and their own. The Quentin storyline could still have claimed a family member, Bethany could have had his wife's face or Carver stumbled on to him trying to claim a victim and died trying to intervene.

I guess the only way I could conceive of supporting Leandra DLC is if it significantly added to her story both before and after the attack. Presently she is just a character I feel I'm told to care about despite knowing little about her and the little I know seeming incongruent with her designated role. Still, I am glad to see the array of perspectives here that, good or bad, derived a strong response from this part of the story.

Modifié par bd223437, 01 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[TheRealJayDee]

HallowedWarden wrote...

 I wasn't uncomfortable. I wasn't upset. I wasn't sad. I sat there thinking, "wow, really?"

HallowedWarden wrote...

I'm nowhere near uncomfortable. In fact, there was so much death in Dragon Age II that I honestly stopped caring. My reaction was close to, "oh look, someone else is dead and there was nothing that I could possibly do about it."

HallowedWarden wrote...
The game would be far more rewarding if you truly had to sit and weigh consequences like that.

All of this.

[Sanguinerin]

bd223437 wrote...

Her distinct lack of maternal instincts for the sacrificial sibling in the prologue immediately threw me out of believing she was even distantly related to or remotely concerned with the Hawke children. She's in arm's reach of the Twin-to-Die and lets them charge headlong into a hopeless situation? Then she yells at the older sibling that dove out of the way of the charge to the far side of the plateau for letting the Twin run off? This reaction seemed unrealistic even just based solely on the positioning of the entire group. Shouldn't she, you know, have needed some consoling for the guilt she feels at standing around instead of stopping her nearby child from committing what amounted to suicide? Had Hawke and the suicide sibling been standing in the positions Leandra and said sibling were that reaction would have at least made sense to me.

This did baffle me originally. I didn't like how Leandra was directly behind the sibling, because I'm sure most parents would have actually reacted in that scene accordingly. I don't know many parents who would just stand there as their child--at arm's reach--ran off like that. Then how I couldn't make a comment when she blamed me, that was off-putting. Also, I didn't care much for Hawke's response options, although diplomatic felt the closest to sincerity.

It strikes me that her death could have been a more useful tool in the prologue if she shoved the nearby twin out of the way of the ogre thereby saving them and getting herself killed. The one she saved would have felt guilt; the one that was physically closer to Hawke could have felt grief or a twinge of resentment that the survivor hadn't helped Leandra. It could have served to bring the Hawke children closer together while fleshing them out. Let's carry on to Kirkwall as Leandra's dying wish whether it was to assuage guilt or honor someone they loved, the motivations would have been interesting and their own.

Leandra sacrificing herself would have been what I expected. From her position during the fight, she very well could have. It also would have appropriate for the same voice actress of Eleanor Cousland. The Teyrna was amazing.

I guess the only way I could conceive of supporting Leandra DLC is if it significantly added to her story both before and after the attack. Presently she is just a character I feel I'm told to care about despite knowing little about her and the little I know seeming incongruent with her designated role. Still, I am glad to see the array of perspectives here that, good or bad, derived a strong response from this part of the story.

I suppose the focus of this thread has been DLC around her death. While I wouldn't be opposed to additional content or options surrounding this monstrosity of a quest, I wouldn't mind earlier DLC that explores her character into greater depth. If I knew more about her, this scene might be a little more effective as it stands.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 02 avril 2011 - 12:27 .

[Andronic0s]

HallowedWarden I agree with everything you said before, though I'm not trying to argue for a DLC (lets not delude ourselves DA2 is over and done with, DLC will add new stuff) I'm arguing for the future, hopefully things like this can be avoided or improved upon in future content (DLC, DA3 or what have you)

As for the Leandra response to Carver/Bethany's death I thought it was natural Hawke just stood there and let them die, I remember wondering the same thing as her "Why did Hawke do nothing?" "Because the plot demands it" was the answer and little did I knew it was going to set the tone for the entire game...

[DxWill10]

LOL childish OP whining makes me giggle. Dedicate your passion and efforts into something else. Leandra's death was an integral part of the story. If you don't like it, then don't play it anymore. To think a DLC will be made for this is absolutely ridiculous.

[RyuAzai]

For me, it was hard to view saving Hawke's mother's quest as little more then just another quest. I don't know, it may just be me, but I couldn't really connect to the family.

A sibling dies in the beginning, and then you lose another one when Act 1 ends (Either to Wardens, death, Mage circle or Templars) And Hawke's mother and I never really had a lot of conversations. I tried to engage her, to talk to her but there wasn't much dialogue. As much as family was played up as an important roll in the game, it didn't seem like they really did play that important of a roll.

Or more so, they didn't actually feel like family to have that great of an impact. Because as soon as you interact with them they are gone a second later.