309 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Bioware did the same action in Origins. The human noble is unable to save his mother and father no matter what he/she does. Your brother is lost or dead as far as you know. The same action in the dwarf noble origin you cannot change your brother dying and your character getting framed.

That's true. However, The Warden is allowed to determine the fate of who will sit on the throne of Orzammar and whether the Anvil will be spared, if the people of Redcliffe will be saved or abandoned, whether the werewolves will be killed or saved, if the Right of Annulment will happen against the Circle of Magi or not, and who will sit on the throne and whether Loghain is going to be spared. There were choices afforded to the protagonist that had impact, while DA2 doesn't afford such opportunities in a city-state that should allow the Champion to have some impact on the world around him.

Realmzmaster wrote...

Here you do not get to save your mother. What may be gnawing at people is the lack of control over the situation. I believe that is intentional. The same thing happens when you are unable to save Nyssa (Huron's wife) who Hawke said Hawke would protect.

The problem is the lack of control is felt throughout most of the storyline. Hawke never has the opportunity to aid the disenfranchised people of Darktown or the impoverished elves of the Alienage despite all his wealth, status, and power, and as the protagonist we never really make any specific decisions that can change Kirkwall in the same way that The Warden changed the societies he encountered.

Realmzmaster wrote...

It shows that no matter how big and bad our characters maybe some events are out of their and our control. The events happen independent of what our character does or says.
Sometimes you cannot save the day.

The problem is Hawke is reactive even when he should be proactive. Finding an incriminating letter about Quentin's accomplice and doing nothing about it is simply one example of this.

[FedericoV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HallowedWarden wrote...

It all leads to the same thing anyway, so why even try to play differently?

I believe the answer is "roleplaying."

If it does not affect the game in anyway what's the point of "roleplaying"? I mean, that side of roleplaying is really important when you play pen & paper with other persons. But if the charachter you try to build have not any kind of influence on the story of a single player videogame, what's the point? Imho, that's not roleplaying. It's a "dress up game for charachters" that allow you to review the storyline written by someone else and that completely miss the element of interactivity that is the point of videogaming.

Mind, for me the All that remains quest finale could be even fine as it is. But it could even be better. And I still do not understand the role of DuPois in the economy of the quest and why they have to link Quentin to Orsino when there is nothing so nasty about Meredith (thus punishing pro mage players like me for no good reason, since I have to kill both leaders no matter what).

Having said that: DA:O's allways allowed some kind of optimal choice and that was a flaw, I agree.But removing any kind of choice it's not the solution and it's not even the best way to cause a dramatic reaction from the player, if not a
very superficial one. Being the cause of my mother's death, that would have been dramatic and personal. The way drama is handled in DA2, is so driven and forced that disconnects players from the game.

Modifié par FedericoV, 02 mai 2011 - 07:58 .

[infernalserpent]

FedericoV wrote...

If it does not affect the game in anyway what's the point of "roleplaying"? I mean, that side of roleplaying is really important when you play pen & paper with other persons. But if the charachter you try to build have not any kind of influence on the story of a single player videogame, what's the point?

For me: because it affects how I play the rest of the game. One of my Hawkes was furious at his mother's death; it pushed him further down the dark path he was already walking, into a nihilistic state where he just gave up and slaughtered everything because, hey, couldn't save Mom, what good is this world? Another of my Hawkes took the death as a wake-up call to be kinder to the people around her, to do something for the people of Kirkwall instead of floating along on her cushion of money and respect.

Did I have any control over Leandra's death? No, not at all. It was going to happen the same way every time, and nothing I could do would change it. But the story I was telling in my head about Gerridon or Marisol Hawke (the two PCs mentioned above) -- I had control over that, and I wielded it to tell the story of two very different Hawkes. I was deeply moved each time because I cared about my Hawkes and was caught up in their stories.

Call it internal control vs. external control of the story. (That is, I can't change the game, but I can change my and my PC's reactions to it.) Psychological roleplaying, if you like.

Modifié par infernalserpent, 03 mai 2011 - 02:58 .

[Sinuphro]

Ultimately, dragon age was supposed to and known for give its players options whether they want certain people to die or not. The current people that made dragon age 2 messed that up. This option was one of the reasons why several people liked dragon age origins. People do not like their options limited. If I knew bioware was going this route I would not had bought dragon age 2. There are several other rpg making companies that follow the generic route of having a player follow their rigid game story. If this is not fixed for DA2 I will not get any of its DLC and the company may as well brace itself for a loss if the same practice done on the current DA2 is used on DA3.

[TEWR]

Because you could totally decide whether Trian Aeducan lived, whether the Couslands lived, whether Tamlen lived, whether Leske lived.

Those were people important to your Origins character and you couldn't choose whether or not they lived or died. They just died. Leandra is no different. You have no say on her fate, as she is important to your character.

The only fault in her death is that there isn't enough of a connection to her, which Legacy will address I believe as some devs confirmed she has some dialogue if she's alive.

Origins let you decide on other peoples' lives who weren't important to your character. Highwaymen, Loghain's soldiers, etc. Or it let you decide on peoples' lives who were important to your goal, but not your actual character.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:46 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because you could totally decide whether Trian Aeducan lived, whether the Couslands lived, whether Tamlen lived, whether Leske lived.

Those were people important to your Origins character and you couldn't choose whether or not they lived or died. They just died. Leandra is no different. You have no say on her fate, as she is important to your character.

The only fault in her death is that there isn't enough of a connection to her, which Legacy will address I believe as some devs confirmed she has some dialogue if she's alive.

Origins let you decide on other peoples' lives who weren't important to your character. Highwaymen, Loghain's soldiers, etc. Or it let you decide on peoples' lives who were important to your goal, but not your actual character.

So those close to the main character always get screwed no matter what.  You do realize you're not making the case that DA2 was well written, just that DAO was poorly written as well right?

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because you could totally decide whether Trian Aeducan lived, whether the Couslands lived, whether Tamlen lived, whether Leske lived.

Those were people important to your Origins character and you couldn't choose whether or not they lived or died. They just died. Leandra is no different. You have no say on her fate, as she is important to your character.

The only fault in her death is that there isn't enough of a connection to her, which Legacy will address I believe as some devs confirmed she has some dialogue if she's alive.

Origins let you decide on other peoples' lives who weren't important to your character. Highwaymen, Loghain's soldiers, etc. Or it let you decide on peoples' lives who were important to your goal, but not your actual character.

So those close to the main character always get screwed no matter what.  You do realize you're not making the case that DA2 was well written, just that DAO was poorly written as well right?

It wasn't my intent to say that DA2 was well written. I've said repeatedly that DA2 wasn't well written.


I do think DA2 went overboard on the family deaths. Leandra's death would've been enough, as both siblings should've lived. Then, you can have a much stronger emotional impact when she does die imo.

Ideally, I would've made it so that both siblings live and then I would have:

Carver: Grey Warden
Bethany: Circle Mage
Leandra: Dead when ATR happens.

of course this would also require a bit more dialogue between those people.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juillet 2011 - 10:48 .

[Jugo616]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I'm actually surprised to hear that people actually liked this quest. I found it to be disgusting and pointless. Well, whatever... it won't prevent me from playing through the game again, but I'll sure as hell be skipping all the dialogue and cutscene when I reach them.

Oh? other peaple have different tastes and opinions then you do? Impossible!!!

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It wasn't my intent to say that DA2 was well written. I've said repeatedly that DA2 wasn't well written.


I do think DA2 went overboard on the family deaths. Leandra's death would've been enough, as both siblings should've lived. Then, you can have a much stronger emotional impact when she does die imo.

Ideally, I would've made it so that both siblings live and then I would have:

Carver: Grey Warden
Bethany: Circle Mage
Leandra: Dead when ATR happens.

of course this would also require a bit more dialogue between those people.

Ahh, fair enough. I thought you were outright defending the fact people close to Hawke drop dead like flies.

You know what would have been a good way to have one of them usually die but give an outside chance of saving them? A ballbustingly hard story battle that you're meant to lose but can be won under extreme circumstances. The best example I can think of was Gades in Lufia II. You were supposed to lose that battle, but if you grinded levels for a long time, had the right items and the right strategy, it was possible to win and you were rewarded with a ridiculously awesome sword. Final Fantasy XII's first Demon Wall too, although Gades was far harder and where I think the "omg, you can win that?!" battle should be difficulty wise. The traditional problem with those types of battles is that they reward you with something to improve your combat abilities. And you don't really need it, because if you just beat the superboss then you can curbstomp anything else anyway. Having it make a difference with a minor storyline aspect, such as a family member surviving, would be a great way to make it worth the while.

[Skydiver8888]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Because you could totally decide whether Trian Aeducan lived, whether the Couslands lived, whether Tamlen lived, whether Leske lived.

Those were people important to your Origins character and you couldn't choose whether or not they lived or died. They just died. Leandra is no different. You have no say on her fate, as she is important to your character.

The only fault in her death is that there isn't enough of a connection to her, which Legacy will address I believe as some devs confirmed she has some dialogue if she's alive.

Origins let you decide on other peoples' lives who weren't important to your character. Highwaymen, Loghain's soldiers, etc. Or it let you decide on peoples' lives who were important to your goal, but not your actual character.

So those close to the main character always get screwed no matter what.  You do realize you're not making the case that DA2 was well written, just that DAO was poorly written as well right?

Why is it that failing to save people or having a MC that screws up lives = poorly written?

Here we go:  That Hamlet, PRINCE OF DENMARK...man, that guy pretty much screwed up everyone and everything he came in contact with (except maybe Horatio, he's like, the Varric of that story:P).  POORLY WRITTEN!

Or how about that ol' Sydney Carton?  Lucie shoulda picked him, i mean, he loved her sooooo much he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for her (what girl doesn't want that???!)...but nooo, Stupid old Charles Dickens made her pick mr. Boring Charles Darnay instead.  POORLY WRITTEN!

What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes, stories are written about an epic hero who CAN change the world.  Like Origins.  Other times, stories are written about a protagonist that's just...a person, who tries their best, makes friends, falls in love, and maybe wins, maybe loses, but the world goes on around them.  You know, kinda like...us.  And like Hawke in DA2.  Maybe she had a title for a while, but sometimes, events are just too big for one person to overcome.  You can't always prevent bad things happening.  If you could, how boring and Mary Sue-ish would your character be? 

A Blight has a clearly defined goal, a singular villain to defeat in the form of the archdemon.  Who is the "villain" in a political dispute, or a revolution?  Who can you go kill to stop ALL OF THE MAGES IN THEDAS from revolting?  Anders?  *snort*  Meredith?  *BZZZZT* try again.  

Now, all that being said, I do think the mistake Bioware made was making a "game of exposition", which is how I see DA2.  Yes, you play a "hero" and the game is about the events surrounding Hawke, but really, in the grand scheme of things, it's like the "Concerning Hobbits" chapter of Fellowship of the Ring.  Necessary to know to fill in more of the overarching apocalyptic-level events coming in Thedas, but still a bit blah to get through.  The events of DA2 might have been better suited to a book or Codex entries, tbh.

They also shouldn't have called it "dragon age 2", because so many of the negative reviews are based on incorrect expectations on the part of the player.  It's a different kind of game set in the DA world...and it's Exposition, a setup for the REAL stuff coming down the line.  Actually, it's just another big long Origin story, this time Hawke's.  Something tells me in DA3 we will see both origins come together for the big show, yeah?