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[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Cajeb wrote...

The problem I had with the Kirkwall Killer was that Orsino knew about it and supported it. That pushes the entire game into black and white with Templars as good and Mages as evil. I can never replay without metagaming and choosing the Templars now

Right. Because every mage, including the First Enchanter being stark raving crazy blood mages wasn't enough of an indicator that they're all bleeding evil lunatics.  It was his involvment in that research that finally pushed you over the edge. /giggle

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 15 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[WhiteKnyght]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Your father actually comes off sounding a bit special. I mean, as you say, he manages to wooe a noblewoman away from a counte, one that a picture of the past makes it look like Leandra liked.

Your father was also a mage that some mages in Kirkwall refer to as one of the best of them.

He also befriends a Templar to the point the Templar helps him. He respected this Templar enough to name a son after him.

What I never caught mention of is how your father actually dies. I mean, it's probably for the best. A man like that seems like he'd easily overshadow his children if he was still alive, but I could totally see DLC of your father making sweet love to your mother as he escapes the Circle and takes her with him to the boonies of Fereldan.

That would be an interesting DLC/expansion. An independent prequel story like Leliana's Song starring Malcolm Hawke covering his time in the circle, escape, meeting Leandra and escaping Kirkwall, and maybe a scene of him lighting Gamlen's butt on fire with his magic.

[Naitaka]

Quest basically just reinforce the fact that none of the choices you make really matters? Don't help Ander with his quest? He blows up the Chantry anyway, Siding with Templar or Mages? War breaks out in the end anyway...

[Cajeb]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

The problem I had with the Kirkwall Killer was that Orsino knew about it and supported it. That pushes the entire game into black and white with Templars as good and Mages as evil. I can never replay without metagaming and choosing the Templars now

Right. Because every mage, including the First Enchanter being stark raving crazy blood mages wasn't enough of an indicator that they're all bleeding evil lunatics.  It was his involvment in that research that finally pushed you over the edge. /giggle

It really is. Everything else you can sorta try to rationalize but once you realize that even the First Enchanter is INTENTIONALLY supporting evil and not just forced into it it becomes no choice at all. Him turning into a Harvester and him being involved in your mom's death killed the entire game for me.

[WhiteKnyght]

That wasn't something I was expecting either. I was expecting to meet a Harvester in the Bone Pitt after I heard that workers disappeared and all they found was body parts and what not in a minecart. But it turned out to be a High Dragon.

[Sanguinerin]

So there was a possibility where Leandra could be saved and it was removed? I certainly enjoyed Dragon Age II but my only hang-up has been that throughout the entire game it feels like you just can't save anyone. Their deaths are inevitable no matter how hard you try.

Honestly, I haven't gotten a second playthrough past the Gallows after the prologue because I just don't want to put myself through everyone dying again. I know that I eventually will run through it again but... Now that I know the possibility of saving Leandra was scrapped that just deepened my only real problem with the game...

[WhiteKnyght]

HallowedWarden wrote...

So there was a possibility where Leandra could be saved and it was removed? I certainly enjoyed Dragon Age II but my only hang-up has been that throughout the entire game it feels like you just can't save anyone. Their deaths are inevitable no matter how hard you try.

Honestly, I haven't gotten a second playthrough past the Gallows after the prologue because I just don't want to put myself through everyone dying again. I know that I eventually will run through it again but... Now that I know the possibility of saving Leandra was scrapped that just deepened my only real problem with the game...

And its likely something you'll never forget.

Also not true, you can save Bethany/Carver from the taint by making them join the Grey. Yea its not a permanent save what with the 30 years to live and whatnot, but who can say for certain that they'll live another 30 years anyway?

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 15 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Sanguinerin]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

And its likely something you'll never forget.

Also not true, you can save Bethany/Carver from the taint by making them join the Grey. Yea its not a permanent save what with the 30 years to live and whatnot, but who can say for certain that they'll live another 30 years anyway?

In terms of playing Dragon Age II, I'm likely always going to remember that Leandra will die. In that respect, you're right. However, Leandra falls into the category of "oh, look, someone else I can't save in this game." I was a bit on edge for her kidnapping, but losing Carver in the Deep Roads was more heartbreaking. It might have been the Frankenstein plot, personally... But I was more emotional over the Viscount's son's death, the Saarebas, Huon's wife...

You can save Bethany or Carver, that is true. However, the deaths stick out much more than the living. There was never a feeling of, "I can actually save you!" It was more of a, "I've saved you! ... For a little while... Then you're going to die... Or kill someone I like (Grace and Thrask?)... Or make me kill you... Or some penultimate everyone has to die! moment..."

Even when side with the Circle, it doesn't feel like you're saving anything or anyone because you now have to kill a bunch of blood mages you thought were going to be allies!

I feel like Donna in Doctor Who when they go to Pompeii. She knows that he can't save the city, but she begs him to save someone...something. I never got that feeling. It was death, death, and look, more death. You can try, and then you just get screwed over in the next act, or later on, etc. in some sort of betrayal. I just... Don't enjoy that moment of regret where I say, "why did I even give you a chance before? I wanted to save you, I wanted to do something good, and now you're turning against me, and really nothing I did mattered any way."

It just feels like a big "screw you!" to trying to do good.

Maybe I'm getting a little impassioned, so I'll stop now.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 15 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[drhys23]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Yes if I understood it right they had a version of the quest where Leandra could be saved, but everyone picked to save her in the tests. So actually they should have the material somewhere which should make it even easier to implement it again.

The problem wasn't that "everyone picked to save her". It was that everyone thought they had to save her, and would reload/re-do the quest until the got the outcome that was perceived as the most optimum-- even if the result when Leandra dies is more dramatic and has more of an impact on the larger story.

The quest isn't about saving her, after all, it's about putting a more personal face on the darker side of magic and the repercussions it can have on innocents.

If someone doesn't like it, that's fine. Up to you. But DLC is created to add content, not to skip it-- and, no, there is no material anywhere to make this easy to implement. Dialogue after Act 2 assumes that your mother is dead. Period. Sorry, but that's simply the way it is.

i agree. when the uncle was asking hawke what had happened i actually stopped and thought about how much info to give him. my hawke knew what had happened, and as painful as it was, it had planted the first real true seeds of doubt in his mind. but did ths uncle need to know that? did the city need to be influenced by it? questions i thought about.

[Maria Caliban]

That quest worked for me. While I support DLC in general, I'd see an add-on where you could save Leandra as undermining an important part of the DA II story. It'd consider it worse than letting the Warden hitch up with Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

Dragon Age II is not a happy story. It had happy moments, but it's ultimately a story where the hero fails when it most matters. Where good intentions, hard work, and skill simply aren't enough to keep your family together or the city from falling apart.

It's a bitter pill. As gamers, we're used to being able to make it all better.

[Sanguinerin]

Indeed. I can see reasons to killing Leandra, despite my desire to see her live. However, going the way of Franken-mother was...a bit distasteful as well. Whereas the moment should have been something far more heartbreaking, I was more so disturbed and put off instead...

Edit: I also wasn't disturbed in a sense of pushing the story such as, "Wow, mages really are capable of terrible things!" I was disturbed more so in a, "Wow, really, they chose to kill mother like this?"

Edit 2: And Maria, I see a difference between death pushing along a story and proving that we aren't always successful and...overkill. DAII was about as much of an overkill as Oghren's Joining scene was degrading. Although I'm shockingly more content after replaying the last fight and siding with the templars. In doing so, I actually got to save some mages... =\\

Perhaps I'm too blissfully caught up in Origins where your choices actually mattered. I don't know. There doesn't even appear to be a real this or that choice moment such as choosing to save Isolde and kill Connor, or kill Isolde and save Connor. I would have liked something like kill Thrask, save Grace or kill Grace, save Thrask. Something.

I have no problems with fixed points. In Origins, we always had to slay the Archdemon, but we had some freedom with the path we chose to get there. In DAII, our path is either killing people when we meet them (or letting them die when we meet them), or killing them later on (or letting them die later on). There is Feynriel, I suppose. I won't say that DAII completely lacks people that don't die...but the feeling is just complete helplessness that doesn't come across as that enjoyable.

It can be interesting, and yes, the plotline is interesting. I would just rather not sit at my desk, play my video game, and have this feeling of complete depression or helplessness for the near-entirety of it if that's possible. I'm not even saying I want a happy, rainbows and butterflies ending. I just would like to feel some kind of balance rather than sit with the scale tipped toward "you'll feel absolutely terrible throughout the entire game because, really, there's nothing you can do about anything."

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 15 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[Layn]

drhys23 wrote...

i agree. when the uncle was asking hawke what had happened i actually stopped and thought about how much info to give him. my hawke knew what had happened, and as painful as it was, it had planted the first real true seeds of doubt in his mind. but did ths uncle need to know that? did the city need to be influenced by it? questions i thought about.

My Hawke sat there blaming herself, told in a daze Gamlen what really happened and let all the accusations wash over her. it was fitting

i liked that for once a hero can't save everyone, and try as he/she might, everything is getting out of control. It's different, it's not the kind of story we're used to, but i'm glad that a game went there and it hopefully will be looked back on as a proof that games can expand into other genres that books and movies already have a lot experience in, like tragedy.

Modifié par Crrash, 15 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[mesmerizedish]

David Gaider wrote...

The problem wasn't that "everyone picked to save her". It was that everyone thought they had to save her, and would reload/re-do the quest until the got the outcome that was perceived as the most optimum-- even if the result when Leandra dies is more dramatic and has more of an impact on the larger story.

The quest isn't about saving her, after all, it's about putting a more personal face on the darker side of magic and the repercussions it can have on innocents.

If someone doesn't like it, that's fine. Up to you. But DLC is created to add content, not to skip it-- and, no, there is no material anywhere to make this easy to implement. Dialogue after Act 2 assumes that your mother is dead. Period. Sorry, but that's simply the way it is.

Well, here's my issue with it. 1. it ripped my heart from my chest. That's a good thing, but it still hurt like the dickens. 2. family is supposed to play an important role in this game, but I'm left totally alone. An ogre took my brother, the templars took my sister, an insane mage took my mother, and I've never had any real relationship with my uncle.

So here I am in Act III, knowing that the only people in my house are only there because I'm paying them. And Merrill. But I'm kind of paying her too, because I support her and don't tell her how evil she is all the time. We were told that the game would be about family, but I'm only feeling the absence of it. I actually identify with Merrill's sense of being lost, away from her home and her clan. I don't want to feel like that.

[Icinix]

It is actually one of the things that irked me about DA2...was the lack of the Family attention...pretty much from the end of ACT1 onwards they have very little screentime..and when you do see whats left of them...they barely say two words to you...

[Sanguinerin]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well, here's my issue with it. 1. it ripped my heart from my chest. That's a good thing, but it still hurt like the dickens. 2. family is supposed to play an important role in this game, but I'm left totally alone. An ogre took my brother, the templars took my sister, an insane mage took my mother, and I've never had any real relationship with my uncle.

So here I am in Act III, knowing that the only people in my house are only there because I'm paying them. And Merrill. But I'm kind of paying her too, because I support her and don't tell her how evil she is all the time. We were told that the game would be about family, but I'm only feeling the absence of it. I actually identify with Merrill's sense of being lost, away from her home and her clan. I don't want to feel like that.

I was actually near praying that "Gamlen's greatest treasure" wouldn't lead to his death. By the end, I honestly felt like he was the only family I had. Even if I didn't care much for him, or have a relationship with him, I wanted to invite him to the estate (as well as Charade) just so that I could feel like I had some sense of family again.

[Foolsfolly]

That quest was one of the best quests in the entire game. Why would anyone want to skip it?

My only semi-problem with it was that for an undead zombie amalgamation, Leandra had an awful lot to say. But I understand the desire to have her say a proper fairwell so it's a really tiny thing I kinda disliked.

Really great quest.

[Sanguinerin]

Foolsfolly wrote...

That quest was one of the best quests in the entire game. Why would anyone want to skip it?

My only semi-problem with it was that for an undead zombie amalgamation, Leandra had an awful lot to say. But I understand the desire to have her say a proper fairwell so it's a really tiny thing I kinda disliked.

Really great quest.

Yes, that was problematic. That's why I believe that--if Leandra has to die to push the plot or for whatever reason--at least have her die in a way where she isn't Franken-mother. I remember her speaking absolutely clearly, not in any sort of way that would lead me to believe that she was just stitched together by the various parts of other women into the undead bride of a lunatic.

If she has to die as she did, a little less clarity and some more gurgling seems like the only way to go...

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 15 mars 2011 - 07:54 .

[dgcatanisiri]

You know my biggest issue with the story line? I loved that even if you did it immediately and raced right to her side, you couldn't save her, it made it so that even though Hawke is the Champion (or at this point, will be), he still can't save everyone, a humanizing action... but I hated that we never get a reaction from the sibling. Gamlen says he'll tell them, and that's the end of it. Not even a funeral where they get to yell at Hawke, blame him for not saving their mother. There's so little of our sibling during either act two or three, that moment would be a nice bit of characterization.

[Sanguinerin]

I also would have liked to see a reaction scene between Hawke and sibling over mother--something to the extent of the Gamlen and Hawke reaction scene. There's just a, "Mother died" ... "I know" kind of reaction the next time you get to see your sibling, and then you move on. I realize we can't have characters cry because it can be tricky... But at no point can I embrace my sibling? I feel like there should have been more depth there.

We have romances where characters kiss and embrace... How about allowing a comforting hug between family?

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 15 mars 2011 - 07:59 .

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well, here's my issue with it. 1. it ripped my heart from my chest. That's a good thing, but it still hurt like the dickens. 2. family is supposed to play an important role in this game, but I'm left totally alone. An ogre took my brother, the templars took my sister, an insane mage took my mother, and I've never had any real relationship with my uncle.

So here I am in Act III, knowing that the only people in my house are only there because I'm paying them. And Merrill. But I'm kind of paying her too, because I support her and don't tell her how evil she is all the time. We were told that the game would be about family, but I'm only feeling the absence of it. I actually identify with Merrill's sense of being lost, away from her home and her clan. I don't want to feel like that.

I think Leandra's death would have been a great point to bring your bother/sister back. Maybe they'd be a companion you could only interact with during their specific quests for the Templars/Mages/Grey Wardens. But I would have like to have seen some reconciliation.

[Deztyn]

I feel like I'm the only one who both hated Leandra's death but wasn't terribly disturbed or offended by it. I saw one of the notes about the feet remembered the dismembered parts from the other quest and said, "LOL. He's totally making a Frankenstein monster bride!" and I was right. So I couldn't take it half as seriously as I should have.

Up until then I was almost able to care about Hawke's family. I actually felt more of a connection to Gamlen than the others.

[Foolsfolly]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

You know my biggest issue with the story line? I loved that even if you did it immediately and raced right to her side, you couldn't save her, it made it so that even though Hawke is the Champion (or at this point, will be), he still can't save everyone, a humanizing action... but I hated that we never get a reaction from the sibling. Gamlen says he'll tell them, and that's the end of it. Not even a funeral where they get to yell at Hawke, blame him for not saving their mother. There's so little of our sibling during either act two or three, that moment would be a nice bit of characterization.

I totally thought when I next saw Carver he'd blame me and maybe even pull his sword on me. I went back to the house after every mission, expecting a note or Carver himself to be there waiting for me.

Mom died. Expected him to get out of the Gallows barracks and chew me out for letting her die.

[Layn]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

You know my biggest issue with the story line? I loved that even if you did it immediately and raced right to her side, you couldn't save her, it made it so that even though Hawke is the Champion (or at this point, will be), he still can't save everyone, a humanizing action... but I hated that we never get a reaction from the sibling. Gamlen says he'll tell them, and that's the end of it. Not even a funeral where they get to yell at Hawke, blame him for not saving their mother. There's so little of our sibling during either act two or three, that moment would be a nice bit of characterization.

in my game when carver appeared with the wardens i told him. iirc he basically said "i know" in a way that he seemed to blame Hawke