309 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Thats a very good point and an opinion I share. Having a Circle and people who are equipped to handle mages is good. But the restrictions should be loosened and the mages should be allowed a choice after their Harrowing. Stay and teach the next generation or research, or go out and actually live their lives.

You're arguing for reform, which is totally reasonable.  A few people in DA2 might support this, given what they say - perhaps Cullen, maybe the Grand Cleric, certainly Bethany, a few others.

But definitely not Meredith and Anders.  Or many others.  They view the situation as beyond saving and force the issue.  That is what makes their position less sympathetic, their methods and propensity to escalate the situation as opposed to negotiate and reform is a huge problem, and it leads to war.

The Circle staying around is definitely a good idea. Mages need a school to learn to control and properly use their talents. But they don't need to get a life sentence over something that might happen with no way of actually telling if it will.

[RosaAquafire]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The Circle staying around is definitely a good idea. Mages need a school to learn to control and properly use their talents. But they don't need to get a life sentence over something that might happen with no way of actually telling if it will.

They shuld be constantly monitored though, in my opinion. Like, give them all templar parole officers. Nothing hardcore, just an annual check-in and some restrictions at borders, if they choose not to stay with the Circle.

[Sanguinerin]

RosaAquafire wrote...

I think we were supposed to be horrified, myself. I think if Leandra had died in a more "conventional" way, the whole point of the plot -- some mages really are bad enough to deserve Tranquilization or death -- wouldn't have hit home as hard. Her death being horrific and supernatural drove him the magical aspect of it. For me, at least.

Oh, yes. I actually agree with you in that I believe her death was supposed to be horrifying to us. It was a horrific choice of death. I'm not sure that I like the execution of it though. She delivers her last words so clearly. I wouldn't believe she were stitched together if not for that scene where she's talking also showing me the...rather apparent neck wound of hers. It breaks the moment a bit that there isn't really a sense of gasping for air, perhaps? Choking up on her speech? Etc. Perhaps that would have been too far... But the trail leading to her was far more compelling than the actual moment she spent dying in Hawke's arms.

I did like how a companion did come to say something afterward, and the bit of dialogue with Gamlen afterward. I only wish that, following Leandra's death, we could deepen our relationship with Gamlen.

[RosaAquafire]

HallowedWarden wrote...

Oh, yes. I actually agree with you in that I believe her death was supposed to be horrifying to us. It was a horrific choice of death. I'm not sure that I like the execution of it though. She delivers her last words so clearly. I wouldn't believe she were stitched together if not for that scene where she's talking also showing me the...rather apparent neck wound of hers. It breaks the moment a bit that there isn't really a sense of gasping for air, perhaps? Choking up on her speech? Etc. Perhaps that would have been too far... But the trail leading to her was far more compelling than the actual moment she spent dying in Hawke's arms.

I did like how a companion did come to say something afterward, and the bit of dialogue with Gamlen afterward. I only wish that, following Leandra's death, we could deepen our relationship with Gamlen.

Fair enough! My "immersion breaking" threshold is pretty damn high so I didn't think much of it, but I understand why that could have undermined the moment for some.

I wish that, too Gamlen ended up being an outrageously chill dude, once you got to know him. It was nice reuniting him with Charade and getting a "personal quest" of sorts with him, but I do wish there had been more Gamlen in Act 2.5/3.

[Sanguinerin]

RosaAquafire wrote...

Fair enough! My "immersion breaking" threshold is pretty damn high so I didn't think much of it, but I understand why that could have undermined the moment for some.

I wish that, too Gamlen ended up being an outrageously chill dude, once you got to know him. It was nice reuniting him with Charade and getting a "personal quest" of sorts with him, but I do wish there had been more Gamlen in Act 2.5/3.

My threshold is normally fairly high. I don't expect realism in my games, anyway. I think I just wanted more depth with the moment of her death and following.

As for Gamlen, I was praying that nothing would happen to him during his greatest treasure quest and was so thankful to discover Charade. I would have loved more follow-up with the two of them!

[JosephShrike]

I absolutely hated how the quest ended, but I think that's what the point of it was. Do I want it to be different? Yes, but that's because I was emotionally invested in the character. In hindsight, more detached from the game then I was while playing it, I think the outcome was excellent. There needs to be some of reality in games, although not too much since there's an escapist mentality, but I think the quest added a strong emotional component that otherwise was missing. Sometimes you can do every single thing right, and in the end still lose. That's just the way it goes, and I applaud this quest for illustrating the fact that in life, often things are just out of your hands.

[Icy Magebane]

Bah... sometimes you just play a game to feel heroic. Why is that a bad thing? I don't play video games so that I can feel like crap. It's really that simple.

[WhiteKnyght]

JosephShrike wrote...

I absolutely hated how the quest ended, but I think that's what the point of it was. Do I want it to be different? Yes, but that's because I was emotionally invested in the character. In hindsight, more detached from the game then I was while playing it, I think the outcome was excellent. There needs to be some of reality in games, although not too much since there's an escapist mentality, but I think the quest added a strong emotional component that otherwise was missing. Sometimes you can do every single thing right, and in the end still lose. That's just the way it goes, and I applaud this quest for illustrating the fact that in life, often things are just out of your hands.

Well if there were a way to save Leanra, there would at least have to be a pretty big cost that would pose a moral choice for Hawke or would give the same impact.

Like in order to save Leanra and return her to normal, someone else would have to die as an equivalency. Or if Merrill were able to use her blood magic to prologue Leandra's life, she'd have to stay in that hacked up form and live a life of pain and suffering. Or if you chose to preserve the Anvil of the Void, she could be taken to Orzammar and made into a Golem which would be a pretty miserable life too.

[Kreidian]

This was a very intense quest chain for me on a personal level. Less then a year ago I was at my own mother's funeral who died of cancer.

Needless to say watching my Champion's mother die in the game struck a huge nerve with me. obviously if I had any option whatsoever to keep her alive I would have, and believe me I tried.
The thing is, though, when it comes to playing the game and telling the story, I completely agree with David on this one. Part of the story of the Champion was the death of her/his mother. Everything that came after had a much bigger impact because of it. Particularly in my case.
My perfectly diplomatic Hawke went immeditately aggressive to any who mentioned his mother after that. Even chewed out Aveline just because of it. It made the story so much more engaging and interesting.

Now looking back at it. Even if there was a DLC to save her I don't think I would change anything. It would just take too much away from the story for me, and worse yet it would cheapen her previous death.

[Squeeze the Fish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Thats a very good point and an opinion I share. Having a Circle and people who are equipped to handle mages is good. But the restrictions should be loosened and the mages should be allowed a choice after their Harrowing. Stay and teach the next generation or research, or go out and actually live their lives.

You're arguing for reform, which is totally reasonable.  A few people in DA2 might support this, given what they say - perhaps Cullen, maybe the Grand Cleric, certainly Bethany, a few others.

But definitely not Meredith and Anders.  Or many others.  They view the situation as beyond saving and force the issue.  That is what makes their position less sympathetic, their methods and propensity to escalate the situation as opposed to negotiate and reform is a huge problem, and it leads to war.

I'm not so sure about Anders. In Awakening/before Justice, all he seemed to want was a "normal" life. Wife, kids, a home. If he had those things to begin with, I wonder if he'd still feel the same way or if the whole Justice thing would have happened.

If you're referring to someone suggesting that reform after the whole Justice thing, I think there's a point in the game where he might have accepted that- when he had more control- but as the game goes on, I think you're right. He's on a mission.

[Clonedzero]

i absolutely LOVED the serial killer questline, i loved how it spanned over the years. the emotional impact was WAY stronger than anything that happened in DA:O. it was fantastic. i loved gamlens confrontation and how hawke hanged his head during that scene it was easily the most powerful part of the game. allowing you to save her would ruin the entire point of that quest. it really humanized hawke in a way that saving her would have completely negated.

i actually liked the ending, even after anders blew up the chantry i still backed the mages, and the moment where orsino wnet crazy it was great because i hadt hat moment of "oh man, i think i picked the wrong side..."

then after i killed meredith and cullen and the rest of the templars came out and then just let me and my crew walk away was perfect.

the story was MUCH better than DA:O's. the problem with writing a strong story like that is that if you give people too many options it weakens the story significantly because the writers have to be more vague and faceless. the darkspawn and archdemon in DA:O had no real motivations other than being pure evil force bent on killing everything, hence you'd always want to stop them. making the story more complex than that completely changes things.

granted the game has alot of set events that are out of your control, but because of that they're able to tell a strong story. the fact neither side at the end was good and no matter what you did it resulted in a horrible conclusion of events was GREAT.

its something you dont see in games much, in the end, you lose. the only other two games i can think of that had great sad endings are gta4 and red dead redemption.

i absolutely LOVED the story in this game. i can understand people being angry they dont get their perfect happy endings, but those feel so cheap. personally i think they need to offscreen kill the warden in DA3 in the beginning and let you play as hawke. yes it'd ruin everyones "happy ending" for their warden, but it'd be fantastic for the story, the way they had to tip-toe around the warden for the story felt a bit awkward but there was no way around it. killing the warden would give them MUCH more freedom with the story since its such a varied character. luckily hawke is established entity which is easier to write with.

[TurboTwistedFire]

Clonedzero wrote...
... personally i think they need to offscreen kill the warden in DA3 in the beginning and let you play as hawke. yes it'd ruin everyones "happy ending" for their warden, but it'd be fantastic for the story, the way they had to tip-toe around the warden for the story felt a bit awkward but there was no way around it. killing the warden would give them MUCH more freedom with the story since its such a varied character. luckily hawke is established entity which is easier to write with.

You know when I first read this I was
up in arms! How dare you even suggest my precious Warden be killed!
And then I took a moment, laid down my projectiles, and started to
think to myself that maybe that would be a good idea. It would
definitely give the writers much more room to work with instead of
having to tie together all the different outcomes and different races
and different backgrounds and worrying about how the Warden looks,
transferring the data for everyone's Warden and then, God forbid,
picking a voice that fans won't have imagined for their character.
Killing the warden would be heart breaking and would absolutely make
for a powerful (off) scene. Imagine seeing the grief on King
Alistair's face when he learns his queen was cut down. Or maybe the
look of every Ferelden citizen to learn that their hero, whatever
his/her background, is dead. Imagine the cameos of Leliana, Zevran
and (hopefully) Morrigan if they were in a relationship with the
Warden. Think of the children! Little Bevin whom would be all grown
up with his sword that the Warden had returned to him. But I
digress.

Of course it would have to be a good death. None of
that slipping on a banana peel and hitting his/her head, and no one
being around so he/she died of her concussion.

Edit: Woah. Weird. My post is all condensed looking.

Modifié par TurboTwistedFire, 16 mars 2011 - 01:30 .

[Medhia Nox]

I'm feel so let down - I thought two decisions I had made caused the events to play out as they did.

1) Telling her to date because I wanted her to be happy.

2) Killing the Blood Mage I thought was the real killer.

===

So, if I tell her not to date and if I help the blood mage find the real killer - I can't save her?

That actually makes the event feel cheapened.

====

I absolutely loved that quest - I was devastated and actually a little emotional about it. I thought I had actually failed her because of my decisions - and I applauded Bioware for such a powerful storytelling scene.

Is she really doomed no matter what?

====

Oh, and for those people saying it should be removed altogether. Please don't be hypocritical. Just because they only say "Bloodsail Rogue" doesn't mean they don't have some virtual family they're trying to provide for.

Varric says it perfectly in a conversation with Anders (I paraphrase): "You've killed 300 women, 500 men, a ton of large spiders, and at least 2 demons. Why do you care about THIS girl, and only this girl. Maybe THAT'S the problem."

[highcastle]

RosaAquafire wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
The Circle staying around is definitely a good idea. Mages need a school to learn to control and properly use their talents. But they don't need to get a life sentence over something that might happen with no way of actually telling if it will.

They shuld be constantly monitored though, in my opinion. Like, give them all templar parole officers. Nothing hardcore, just an annual check-in and some restrictions at borders, if they choose not to stay with the Circle.

Ah, that's where things start. Just small infringements on personal freedoms. They tend to snowball, though. Just listen to Fenris' story about how the magisters returned. It started with small liberities, then it escalated. I think the reverse would happen if the templars stayed in the picture to any degree. There's too much history of power abuse and subjugation. If a police-type organization is needed, then it needs to be new. And mages themselves should have some measure of control in it.

On topic: Not being able to save Leandra doesn't cheapen this quest, at least not in my opinion. Hawke can't solve every problem. He's not all-powerful. This event acts as foreshadowing for his future helplessness in the Chantry blowing up. Are you upset you couldn't stop that, too? Or does it not matter because hundreds are a statistic while your mother is an actual person with whom you've bonded?

I'm of the opinion Hawke's not really a hero. He's a focal point. He's influential. He's done a lot of great things. But not even he can stop the brewing war. He couldn't save his mother. He couldn't save at least one of his siblings. He's defined by his losses, by what he couldn't do. I think that shakes a lot of people up, because it's not something we're accustomed to playing in a game. But I've said before, I love it.

[AlexXIV]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm feel so let down - I thought two decisions I had made caused the events to play out as they did.

1) Telling her to date because I wanted her to be happy.

2) Killing the Blood Mage I thought was the real killer.

===

So, if I tell her not to date and if I help the blood mage find the real killer - I can't save her?

That actually makes the event feel cheapened.

====

I absolutely loved that quest - I was devastated and actually a little emotional about it. I thought I had actually failed her because of my decisions - and I applauded Bioware for such a powerful storytelling scene.

Is she really doomed no matter what?

====

Oh, and for those people saying it should be removed altogether. Please don't be hypocritical. Just because they only say "Bloodsail Rogue" doesn't mean they don't have some virtual family they're trying to provide for.

Varric says it perfectly in a conversation with Anders (I paraphrase): "You've killed 300 women, 500 men, a ton of large spiders, and at least 2 demons. Why do you care about THIS girl, and only this girl. Maybe THAT'S the problem."

Because she is Hawke's mom.

[Medhia Nox]

So killing other people is fine - but having your mommy die is wrong. I see.

[WhiteKnyght]

Medhia Nox wrote...

So killing other people is fine - but having your mommy die is wrong. I see.

Leandra never hurt anyone. The people Hawke hurts are murders, robbers, and people dumb enough to attack.

Most of Hawke's killings are actually self defense.

[_Dejanus]

I liked the way it was, and I agree with Gaider's argument for drama versus choice.

Beyond that, the scene really got to me. First time I shed a tear because of a videogame, ever. I'll remember that.

[chinoyray]

The scene is actually good. Like what _dejanus said... it got me. It's rare for a videogame to make someone teary eyed.

[tanerb123]

the morale of the story is "family is a weakness". this is what bioware shoved into our thoat. i think for the sake of creating a dark story writers forgot why  people play role playing games in the first place.

Modifié par tanerb123, 16 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[Layn]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm feel so let down - I thought two decisions I had made caused the events to play out as they did.

1) Telling her to date because I wanted her to be happy.

2) Killing the Blood Mage I thought was the real killer.

===

So, if I tell her not to date and if I help the blood mage find the real killer - I can't save her?

That actually makes the event feel cheapened.

1) why would she stop dating just because her oldest said something? Even if she got afraid that she was too old or something, as soon as the white lilies arrive of course she's going to meet that man that showed interest.

2) well, i did look for him, but when i was doing that i had the distinct feeling that i was losing precious time while  looking for him, and she would actually end up being dead if i did manage talking to him. Going direct to where she disappeared, i thought i'd gain a few moments, but that it had been too long anyway. the rest was just denial and hoping that she would be just dead and nothing more. Gamlen had only told me once i got back home, not as soon as she had disappeared, so time was already lost. imho in a realistic story i'd have no control over those events.
i felt the reason it happened was because i spent most of the time away dealing with other peoples problems instead of with family

Modifié par Crrash, 16 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[mesmerizedish]

So, this thread is about the whole mages vs. templars thing now? Interesting. Verrrrrry interesting.

[Warknowledge]

His mother Leandra dying was a total shock to me but done very well.
It brings a more realistic nature to the game... Great story lines and characters...

Def. going to play this title over and over...

Modifié par Warknowledge, 16 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[Legbiter]

Poor Leandra. She just couldn't catch a break.

Still, did you see the quality stitching on her in the end. Man missed his calling.

[Warknowledge]

Indeed... The stitching was very well done... lol