309 réponses à ce sujet

[Raygereio]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
So, this thread is about the whole mages vs. templars thing now? Interesting. Verrrrrry interesting.

It's not like it's realistic to expect DLC that rewrites existing quests given that that isn't the purpose of DLC, so that topic is pretty much off.
A BioWare dev has come in and basically said: "Yeah, we could have done better on this quest. But we didn't because we felt like it / due to time constraints (take your pick; I'm picking the latter, I'm a hopefull bugger like that). So that question has been answered. Hey, this thread has to be about something right?

[Nordic Warlord]

Crrash wrote...

in a realistic story i'd have no control over those events.

In a realistic story there would be no magic, no demons, no walking corpses etc. And also in a realistic story Hawke would not be able to survive all those battles. So realism is a good thing but only when it dosen't interfere with gameplay.

[RazorrX]

I want DLC to add things to the game rather than change one of the best and most emotional moments in the game.

While I hated that I could not stop her death, the one thing I would like is if you go to Orsino and he points you to some other mage named Obadia or some such and you kill him thinking it is the same guy who was working with the killer. :-P

[AlexXIV]

Raygereio wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
So, this thread is about the whole mages vs. templars thing now? Interesting. Verrrrrry interesting.

It's not like it's realistic to expect DLC that rewrites existing quests given that that isn't the purpose of DLC, so that topic is pretty much off.
A BioWare dev has come in and basically said: "Yeah, we could have done better on this quest. But we didn't because we felt like it / due to time constraints (take your pick; I'm picking the latter, I'm a hopefull bugger like that). So that question has been answered. Hey, this thread has to be about something right?

I'll put it easy for you so you understand. Purpose of a DLC is optional content for people who like. If enough like it then it pays off for Bioware to make it, period. Darkspawn Chronicles almost rewrote the whole game, so explain me that if you can.

Not everyone needs to like the quest, as DG said. So why not make a DLC that not everyone needs to like? I don't see the difference or a reasoning behind not giving in to a DLC request, IF it doesn't break the story and IF enough people want it. If not then of course not.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[Nordic Warlord]

AlexXIV wrote...

Not everyone needs to like the quest, as DG said. So why not make a DLC that not everyone needs to like? I don't see the difference or a reasoning behind not giving in to a DLC request, IF it doesn't break the story and IF enough people want it. If not then of course not.

And such a DLC would definately be much more useful than something like Feastday Gifts/Feastday Pranks.

Modifié par Nordic Warlord, 16 mars 2011 - 06:10 .

[Raygereio]

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't see the difference or a reasoning behind not giving in to a DLC request,

By the way; insulting me in broken English without any provocation is truly the best way to start of your post.

That said; I'll give you a really good reason why this wouldn't be a good idea; it sets a really bad precedent:
"Hey kids, remember this quest that had a good concept at it's core, but due to time-constraints/bad-writing/lousy judgement ended up being just poorly done in this game that you paid 50 euro's for? How about you pay another 10 euros and we'll make that quest actually good."

Yeah, no thanks.

Modifié par Raygereio, 16 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[AlexXIV]

Raygereio wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't see the difference or a reasoning behind not giving in to a DLC request,

By the way; insulting me in broken English without any provocation is truly the best way to start of your post.

That said; I'll give you a really good reason why this wouldn't be a good idea; it sets a really bad precedent:
"Hey kids, remember this quest that had a good concept at it's core, but due to time-constraints/bad-writing/lousy judgement ended up being just poorly done in this game that you paid 50 euro's for? How about you pay another 10 euros and we'll make that quest actually good."

Yeah, no thanks.

So you would rather play a bad game for 50 bucks than a good game for 60 bucks. My broken english at least doesn't keep me from thinking.

[David Gaider]

AlexXIV wrote...
I'll put it easy for you so you understand.

And I'll put it easy for you to understand:

We're not going to re-write our quests to suit someone's individual tastes. If you don't like something that much, that's what modding is for. That is the final word on the matter.

[Raygereio]

AlexXIV wrote...
So you would rather play a bad game for 50 bucks than a good game for 60 bucks. My broken english at least doesn't keep me from thinking.

Apparently it does because that's not what I said.
I want a good game. Period. What I do not want is to buy a mediocre game and then being told I have to pay more in order to make that game good.

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I'll put it easy for you so you understand.

And I'll put it easy for you to understand:

We're not going to re-write our quests to suit someone's individual tastes. If you don't like something that much, that's what modding is for. That is the final word on the matter.

Your final word maybe. Unless you are going to ban me. In that case you're welcome.

[RosaAquafire]

AlexXIV wrote...
Your final word maybe. Unless you are going to ban me. In that case you're welcome.

"Internets and video games make me such a rockstar."

[AlexXIV]

Raygereio wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
So you would rather play a bad game for 50 bucks than a good game for 60 bucks. My broken english at least doesn't keep me from thinking.

Apparently it does because that's not what I said.
I want a good game. Period. What I do not want is to buy a mediocre game and then being told I have to pay more in order to make that game good.

And this has not ever been topic of this thread. I merely asked for an option that I'd pay for. Not everyone needs to buy every DLC. I didn't buy the darkspawn chonicles or leliana's song either. And I doubt everyone did. It is really easy, you don't like a DLC, you don't buy it. So you keep your story or whatever. I don't even understand why so many people argue here about Bioware changing the story. It's not like I said 'change the story for everyone'.

[milkabi]

I personally wouldn't want to change that particular quest and be able to save Leandra. If there was an option to save her I would do it and that would diminish the emotional impact that the game has on me. In that regard I am glad I don't have that choice. There are a lot of quests I wish I had the option to do in different ways and possibly have an chance of a really happy, sugary ending but I like the darkness of the game and I like the way it engages me in the story, even if it leaves me conflicted at many places, or because of it.

[CyberNinjaSensei]

 Once I heard the mention of lilies, I too, had that sinking feeling. I actually enjoyed the quest and story for what it is. As with real life, there's just unstoppable events that leaves you feeling helpless. Love it or hate it, right or wrong, Bioware's good at it. I mean, at that point in the story, there's a possibilty that your Hawke would be the last member of the Hawke family living. And just thinking about that is dreadful: Hawke left with Gamlen, and eventually a cousin, but that's it. Bigger picture, I think it's horrendous what happens to Leandra, but it's a helluva story twist and even if they made the mistake of releasing such DLC, even for FREE with 2 extra items, I wouldn't download it.

But, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Wulfram]

I think not having a choice was the right decision. However, I felt the horror elements took away from the tragedy.

[Svest]

Without that quest playing out the way it does the whole templar vs mage decision is meaningless. Hawke's father, sister, and possibly Hawke as well are/were all apostates. There is no way Hawke would ever really side with the templars unless something like this happened to shatter the way he viewed mages. The only way Leandra could possibly be saved without seriously damaging the story is if it was at the expense of some other equally terrible and personal consequence.

[Nordic Warlord]

Svest wrote...

The only way Leandra could possibly be saved without seriously damaging the story is if it was at the expense of some other equally terrible and personal consequence.

Actually, Bioware indeed threw the baby out with the bath water. I mean, instead of removing only the so-called "I win button" (like the option to seek help from the Circle of Mages in DA:O) they gave us no choice at all. That was a bad decision in my opinion.

[Icy Magebane]

Svest wrote...

Without that quest playing out the way it does the whole templar vs mage decision is meaningless. Hawke's father, sister, and possibly Hawke as well are/were all apostates. There is no way Hawke would ever really side with the templars unless something like this happened to shatter the way he viewed mages. The only way Leandra could possibly be saved without seriously damaging the story is if it was at the expense of some other equally terrible and personal consequence.

That's not necessarily true... if anything, what you say means that because of Quentin, there is no reasonbable way for Hawke to side with the mages.  A person doesn't need to be selfishly motivated in order to draw moral conclusions.  Anders' little plan was the real moment where beliefs are thrown into question.  Or maybe even the insane number of abominations and blood mages you meet all throughout the story?  Quentin's involvement was just one more instance of the corruption that magic can bring, but it is not the only instance.

Unless, of course, personal interest overrides all societal responsibilites... in which case, yes, you would need to lose your mother to a mage.

For the record, I still don't endorse the idea to provide DLC to alter the storyline.  I think the quest was unnecssisarily harsh, and was included purely for shock value, but that still doesn't mean it should be rewritten.  This is how it happened.  It wasn't right for Bioware to give us no possibility of altering the quest, but it would be worse for them to change it after the fact.  (though I'd still buy the DLC if they actually made it  )

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 16 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Svest]

Icy Magebane wrote...

That's not necessarily true... if anything, what you say means that because of Quentin, there is no reasonbable way for Hawke to side with the mages.  A person doesn't need to be selfishly motivated in order to draw moral conclusions.  Anders' little plan was the real moment where beliefs are thrown into question.  Or maybe even the insane number of abominations and blood mages you meet all throughout the story?  Quentin's involvement was just one more instance of the corruption that magic can bring, but it is not the only instance.

Unless, of course, personal interest overrides all societal responsibilites... in which case, yes, you would need to lose your mother to a mage.

For the record, I still don't endorse the idea to provide DLC to alter the storyline.  I think the quest was unnecssisarily harsh, and was included purely for shock value, but that still doesn't mean it should be rewritten.  This is how it happened.  It wasn't right for Bioware to give us no possibility of altering the quest, but it would be worse for them to change it after the fact.  (though I'd still buy the DLC if they actually made it  )

No, what I'm saying is that most players already side with the mages as a default perspective (as has already been said in this thread).  Combine that with seeing Hawke or Bethany as examples of good mages who probably deserve freedom and very few people would ever actually choose to side with the templars.  All the other blood mages and abominations in the game are really no better or worse than the thugs and murderers who use knives and swords instead of spells.  People managed to cause plenty of death and destruction at the end of act 2 and they didn't need magic to do it.  It has to become personal for the story to truly effect the player.

Also yes, in storytelling personal interests often and usually does override societal responsibilities.  In real life that might not be the case, but in a good story that has an emotional effect on the "reader" it often is.

Edit: Think of it this way.  There are quite a few people in this story that die and you can't save them.  Why is it that Leandra is different?  Because its personal.

Modifié par Svest, 16 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[SirGladiator]

It was incredibly poorly done, the idea was always that your family is a big part of the game, and as such killing all (or most) of your family off for no reason makes the rest of the game feel sort of pointless. There's no reason to have your mother killed by a madman (I dont get that her death could ever make you hate mages, the fact that he's a mage is irrelevant, he was insane, you might as well hate him for being a dude, or for the color of his hair, its completely irrelevant), there's no good reason to have your sister kidnapped by templars and not giving you a way to rescue her, obviously they wanted Hawke to lose all of her family, and the fact that it was done poorly isn't what I have a problem with, its that it was done at all. If family is a big part of the game, as it certainly is, I want to be able to protect them, that can't possibly be an unreasonable request. I have no problem with the idea that they all 'can' die, I think that's great, it gives you a reason to try your best to prevent it, I strongly disagree with the idea that they all 'must' die (or otherwise be taken away). It isn't just dumb, it really hurts the rest of the game. I find myself in act 3, and unable to honestly figure out what the point of finishing the game is. I've got no family left other than my kidnapped sister that I'm not allowed to rescue or even speak to, I've got no enemies to speak of, what am I doing? If my mother and sister were still with me, I'd obviously have plenty of reason to keep playing, gaining as much power, money, status, etc as possible in order to be able to keep them safe, but as it is, it just seems rather pointless. Oh well, hopefully one day we'll at least get a mod to improve this, and everybody who doesn't want their family to die will be as happy as the few folks who apparently enjoy that sort of thing.

[RedWulfi]

I think bioware wanted to make it harder for the player to choose sides. If you like mages and wanted to save them and then have your mother die by the hands of one would definitely make me confused on who to choose!

[Icy Magebane]

Svest wrote...

Edit: Think of it this way.  There are quite a few people in this story that die and you can't save them.  Why is it that Leandra is different?  Because its personal.

Honestly, the nature of the death bothers me more than the death itself.  That's really the only reason I wish we could affect the outcome of the quest.  If she died normally it wouldn't have been as hard to stomach as having to listen to a goodbye speech from some kind of Frankenstien monster.

[Svest]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Honestly, the nature of the death bothers me more than the death itself.  That's really the only reason I wish we could affect the outcome of the quest.  If she died normally it wouldn't have been as hard to stomach as having to listen to a goodbye speech from some kind of Frankenstien monster.

I suspect that you are in the minority on that.  Most people seem to want a way to save her, not let her die in a less horrific way. 

Even then, the nature of the death is yet another thing that is designed to evoke an emotional response.  Apparently it succeeded.  That's all good storrytelling really is, something that engages you and provokes an emotional response.  Sometimes the emotion is anger or disgust. 

The good thing is you never have to listen to a goodbye speech from some sort of Frankenstein monster again if you don't want to.  Just skip the cutscene if you play the game again.

[Icy Magebane]

@Svest: Heh... fair enough. Thankfully Bioware does allow you to skip conversations.

[Sanguinerin]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Honestly, the nature of the death bothers me more than the death itself.  That's really the only reason I wish we could affect the outcome of the quest.  If she died normally it wouldn't have been as hard to stomach as having to listen to a goodbye speech from some kind of Frankenstien monster.

That's what bothers me as well. I would love to save Leandra, but the nature of her death bothers me more than her actual death. As you can find many times in this thread, something about the perfectly speaking stitched together woman still delivering a clear farewell speech doesn't add up well. I understand the intent, of making it this horrific example of magic, but the execution was much poorer than it could have been in my opinion.