309 réponses à ce sujet

[stewie1974]

SirGladiator wrote...
(I dont get that her death could ever make you hate mages, the fact that he's a mage is irrelevant, he was insane, you might as well hate him for being a dude, or for the color of his hair, its completely irrelevant),
.

Um gender and color of hair have little to do with forbidden magic rituals...  That is the reason she was killed, ya know cuz the guy was a blood mage, not because the guy was a guy with that color hair..

[Denizen89]

I thought it was one of the best parts of the game. Heck act 2 was probably the best part. Though I would like to see more quests added in act 3 to better understand Meredith and Orsinio, not to mention a little bit of leeway on that last boss battle because i dunno it just seemed way to easy.

[Icy Magebane]

stewie1974 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...
(I dont get that her death could ever make you hate mages, the fact that he's a mage is irrelevant, he was insane, you might as well hate him for being a dude, or for the color of his hair, its completely irrelevant),
.

Um gender and color of hair have little to do with forbidden magic rituals...  That is the reason she was killed, ya know cuz the guy was a blood mage, not because the guy was a guy with that color hair..

Not all blood mages are insane/evil... you are still judging all mages based on the potential for evil demonstrated by a single person.  That was an extreme case.  I notice how easily people forget about the good mages, like Wynne and Irving, who would never do such things.  Merrill was a blood mage too, and though she was reckless and ... lol... I'm not going to say naive.  She was idiotic when it came to demons... Merrill was not evil because of blood magic.  Maybe one day she would become an abomination, that's true... but Hawke didn't have to deal with a demon to access blood magic.  So unless there is a reason for that which I am unaware of, I'd say that blood magic is more easily accessible through a demonic pact, but that isn't the only way to gain that power.

Anyway... not all mages are evil was the point.  Even if you want to say blood magic is always caused by deals with demons, that still doesn't mean that all mages would accept such deals.

[stewie1974]

Icy Magebane wrote...

stewie1974 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...
(I dont get that her death could ever make you hate mages, the fact that he's a mage is irrelevant, he was insane, you might as well hate him for being a dude, or for the color of his hair, its completely irrelevant),
.

Um gender and color of hair have little to do with forbidden magic rituals...  That is the reason she was killed, ya know cuz the guy was a blood mage, not because the guy was a guy with that color hair..

Not all blood mages are insane/evil... you are still judging all mages based on the potential for evil demonstrated by a single person.  That was an extreme case.  I notice how easily people forget about the good mages, like Wynne and Irving, who would never do such things.  Merrill was a blood mage too, and though she was reckless and ... lol... I'm not going to say naive.  She was idiotic when it came to demons... Merrill was not evil because of blood magic.  Maybe one day she would become an abomination, that's true... but Hawke didn't have to deal with a demon to access blood magic.  So unless there is a reason for that which I am unaware of, I'd say that blood magic is more easily accessible through a demonic pact, but that isn't the only way to gain that power.

Anyway... not all mages are evil was the point.  Even if you want to say blood magic is always caused by deals with demons, that still doesn't mean that all mages would accept such deals.

1st
I never mentioned evil in my post.

2nd
I mention specifically "BLOOD" mages, and that became ALL mages in you retort.

3rd.
I never mentioned blood magic requiring demon pacts.

I'll clear up what I said..

Leandra was killed by a blood mage performing a blood ritual or using dark magic to resurrect the dead.
Leandra was not killed by a male with certian color hair performing a "male with certian color hair" ritual.

Now "normal" people don't have the ability to ressurect the dead or patch them together.
Mages do.

Had the magic not been an option for the killer, Hawkes mother would still be alive. She WAS killed because the guys insane plan required the use of magic, if magic were not available to him...... would he have still killed her?


Ok, now

You are hawke.
You have witnessed this.

You have a choice of how to feel about this "tool" of magic that was used to murder your mother.

You have two choices.

"Magic dosn't kill people, people kill people" = take the mage side in the final battle.

or

"Magic is too dangerous to be so freely practiced" = take the templar side in the final battle.

I'm aware you can't take the "indifferent side" in the final battle, and I tried it only to be told I had to choose sides. Which is where my hawkes dilema was.

He'd fought a lot of wreckless mages who succumbed to darkness and his mother was killed by one

However he also was romancing a merril and had a sister who was a mage stolen by templars.


It's not easier when your brother is a templar either, because.. you are a mage.

so yes this whole thing is set up to give your character the dilema, you can't freely chose sides with out upsetting someone.

I'm only glad I was able to convince fenris to fight with me on the side of the mages. Cuz sebastian annoys me so I could do with out him in my party.

[Gumba Masta]

David Gaider wrote...



Correct. It's not, however, about what the player wants to do.

Funny... I was always under the impression that that was what games were all about. Thank you for correcting me on that erronious opinion. 

[Granitehands]

I'd like to see more relating to what happened. All the character gets for comforting is a distraught Gamlen, a short scene with the LI, and Aveline comforting you by talking about herself.

I've only helped you with slavers your po'd tribe, your wacked out brother,...etc

Thanks for getting my back crew

[TexasToast712]

stewie1974 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...
(I dont get that her death could ever make you hate mages, the fact that he's a mage is irrelevant, he was insane, you might as well hate him for being a dude, or for the color of his hair, its completely irrelevant),
.

Um gender and color of hair have little to do with forbidden magic rituals...  That is the reason she was killed, ya know cuz the guy was a blood mage, not because the guy was a guy with that color hair..

Technically he is a Necromancer.

[andysdead]

"no matter how hard you try, no matter how right you are, sometimes the dragon wins."

[dewayne31]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I'll put it easy for you so you understand.

And I'll put it easy for you to understand:

We're not going to re-write our quests to suit someone's individual tastes. If you don't like something that much, that's what modding is for. That is the final word on the matter.

i like the quest it shed light pn a area i wondering bout with mages. and it almost made me side with the templars. but the end i was thinking bout my sister more then anything.

Modifié par dewayne31, 21 mars 2011 - 02:57 .

[Draco856]

Okay, how about a way that has her die but stops short of chopping her to pieces? It's over the top disturbing to see your mothers head on another's body talking to you....

[Phantom.Brave10]

It was a heart-wrenching quest to say the least. Even though you never really get to know Hawke's mother, the fact that she dies in your arms with you companions standing watching was awful. I really enjoyed that quest, but it was sad.
And I was angry when you came back, and Gamlen scorns you for not being quicker or stronger.

[Medhia Nox]

Gumba Masta - you're quote of Mr. Gaider speaks volumes to me about the type of game he's putting out. Now it's my turn to speak out when he tries to sell me his future products.

Roleplaying games ARE about me making many of the choices - not just who to romance.

If I want someone to dictate a story to me, I will play a game that isn't called an RPG - like Bioshock.

[Big I]

Just read DGs comments about the purpose of this quest and felt compelled to respond.

1. I did not change my opinions about magic and mage freedom because of this quest. It didn't even occur to me that that was what the quest was supposed to make me question until a day after i had done it.

2. Once I realised that was it's purpose, I STILL did not change my view, nor did I think on it for more than a minute. If the killer had been a qunari or a templar I wouldn't have felt more antagonistic towards those groups. One madman is not representative, and I didn't end up thinking "this is what blood magic does", I ended up thinking "this is what being INSANE does."

3. While I was mildly interested in Leandra, I felt no great investment in her character, primarily because of how annoying and controlling she was towards Hawke in Act 1. While I was surprised when the quest happened, and shocked at the outcome, the whole thing felt more like a cheap stunt to me than anything. I continued the game barely thinking about it, and was surprised when characters brought it up further along the story.

[Volourn]

"It is unfotunate, but it seems the writers wanted to eliminate Hawke's family"

Yet, your sibling, uncle, and your cousin can all live....

[Alexein]

I actually liked this quest and while I did rage at the computer when i realized it was lose-lose-lose i still felt the emotional impact of what was trying to be said.

I actually want the story to have gone even further, the mourning and the aftermath should have been padded more. Hawke just seemed to pick him/herself up afterward a little too quick.

I would support a Leandra DLC but from a different perspective: To instead examine Hawke's mental state. Maybe allow hawke to visit Leandra's grave and have an emotional crisis. Depending on dialog choices, Hawke might lash out at Merril for being a blood mage, Cry into the current romance's arms, share a much greater bonding moment with aveline (referring to Wesley's death). Or even visit Hawke's sibling (assuming its bethany-mage or templar-carver) and either become more distant or closer depending on dialogue. Maybe even visit young Leandra (and perhaps even Malcolm) in flash backs to happier times while the family all together.

The opening of the DLC might be hawke entering Leandra's room (which is locked off in the main game)

So I support a Leandra Hawke "Rest in Peace" DLC.

[Phantom.Brave10]

Volourn wrote...

"It is unfotunate, but it seems the writers wanted to eliminate Hawke's family"

Yet, your sibling, uncle, and your cousin can all live....

You have the choice of finding out you never had a cousin.
And on that quest, if your uncle were to take it, he could die.

edit: Worded badly. Have the choice of never finding out you have a cousin.

Modifié par Phantom.Brave10, 21 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[Silver Direwolf]

I do find it funny that people complained in DA:O that most quests, like Redcliffe and I guess the Archdemon, had an "every wins, happy ending" choice, and not others complain about the lack of it in DA2. Having said that, it would have been nice to have some way to save her, though that wasn't the story being told.

Like maybe killing Gascard makes it impossible to save her, as then he can help you find the real killer quicker or something.

As my Hawke pointed out herself, Leandra would have been just as dead to a madman with a knife as to a madmage. So much like I always thought, Mages should have more freedom in the DA universe (well Thedas etc., not Tevinter), but should still be policed as they obviously can be very dangerous.

On the topic of adding DLC to change the story, I don't agree with that. I believe that any story created should be enjoyed for what it is, and even if you'd prefer it to have turned out a different way, it's still possible to see the value of it or enjoy it.

(Though having said all this, I did just redo the Orsino/Meridith fight as to get Fenris back on my side and not kill him. AND may redo the part before it again to tell Anders to get lost/maybe kill him. I think I can do it without my healer. I would have gone back to Harden Alistar in DA:O before crowning him if it didn't mean  repeating like 30 hours of gameplat )

[flakmeister_mcg]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Just read DGs comments about the purpose of this quest and felt compelled to respond.

1. I did not change my opinions about magic and mage freedom because of this quest. It didn't even occur to me that that was what the quest was supposed to make me question until a day after i had done it.

2. Once I realised that was it's purpose, I STILL did not change my view, nor did I think on it for more than a minute. If the killer had been a qunari or a templar I wouldn't have felt more antagonistic towards those groups. One madman is not representative, and I didn't end up thinking "this is what blood magic does", I ended up thinking "this is what being INSANE does."

3. While I was mildly interested in Leandra, I felt no great investment in her character, primarily because of how annoying and controlling she was towards Hawke in Act 1. While I was surprised when the quest happened, and shocked at the outcome, the whole thing felt more like a cheap stunt to me than anything. I continued the game barely thinking about it, and was surprised when characters brought it up further along the story.

Glad to see another voice of reason regarding this quest.

Two
words describe this one: exploitative and misfire. It was very apparent
that the killers motivation was him being bat**** crazy, not his blood
magic shenanigans. Any insane non-mage person could have done what he
did, the only difference being that we wouldn't have Frankenstein's Bride shuffle towards Hawke like some abominable undead chimaera.

Secondly.
Leandra is such a horribly shallow character with no interesting
characteristics to describe her that I would have been quite indifferent
to her being killed off if it weren't for the atrociously gratuitous
and grotesque manner by which it was done. I was quite insulted that the
writers thought I'd actually care more if the death was super creepy
and awesome.

[Darkshore]

I just wanted to pop into this thread and give Gaider and the others at Bioware props for this quest. It hits deep and I believe it makes the general fear of Blood Mages hit home to the player. I've always been a Mage supporter but da2 did its damnedest to get me to switch sides, especially with the ending of this quest. Great work, I think her dying is the best way to end the quest otherwise it just doesn't quite hit with the same force.

[ciphermind]

The fact that you people request this means that BioWare did their job. They made you miss Leandra to the point to desire story-ruining DLC. Bravo BioWare, no one does narrative like you

[Alexein]

Fine, bioware did their jobs so well that we don't want to buy the next game because we hate losing characters so much. Without our money, the employees at bioware can start looking for new jobs.

Good job guys.

Modifié par Alexein, 31 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[ciphermind]

Alexein wrote...

Fine, bioware did their jobs so well that we don't want to buy the next game because we hate losing characters so much. Without our money, the employees at bioware can start looking for new jobs.

Good job guys.

I personally wouldn't mind losing audience members who want nothing more than to be emotionally pandered to.  BioWare doesn't feel the need to appeal to your unrefined literary sensibilities, and instead tries to create the best narrative possible.  With this plot point, they did well in that respect.

Also, the tiny lot of you who can't enjoy a good story will hardly bankrupt BioWare.

[Sanguinerin]

ciphermind wrote...

The fact that you people request this means that BioWare did their job. They made you miss Leandra to the point to desire story-ruining DLC. Bravo BioWare, no one does narrative like you

Not exactly. I didn't miss Leandra. I would have preferred that she was alive because she was my character's mother. I would have preferred options that lead to different outcomes, including her survival at the expense of someone or something else. I would have preferred that my surviving sibling and Hawke actually had a genuine reaction, rather than...

Hawke: "Mother is dead..."
Carver [in my game]: "I know."

Her death didn't feel to have a real impact--for me--in any way. It felt pointless, because I believe the execution was terrible. I'm not upset or horrified that she died. I didn't particularly find the Frankenstein's monster plot to be in good taste, either. The intent to show the darker sides of magic didn't ring with me, because one lunatic mage killing people doesn't represent all mages. I was more horrified when Huon killed his wife in front of me.

Asking for DLC to change this quest in some fashion isn't an indication that BioWare, or the developers rather, did anything well.

[AlexXIV]

ciphermind wrote...

Alexein wrote...

Fine, bioware did their jobs so well that we don't want to buy the next game because we hate losing characters so much. Without our money, the employees at bioware can start looking for new jobs.

Good job guys.

I personally wouldn't mind losing audience members who want nothing more than to be emotionally pandered to.  BioWare doesn't feel the need to appeal to your unrefined literary sensibilities, and instead tries to create the best narrative possible.  With this plot point, they did well in that respect.

Also, the tiny lot of you who can't enjoy a good story will hardly bankrupt BioWare.

So you raise this thread after 10 days to tell us this. First thing, how can a DLC ruin a game? It's optional. You can buy it or not and if you bought it you still don't need to use it. Also I think the question Bioware is asking themselves when they make a DLC is probably: Are people even interested. If you add to that that the reasoning behind making it impossible to save Leandra was that most people would try to save her kinda tells me that people may be interested. Last but not least. Family topic in DA2 is comming a bit short, most people would agree with that. As I mentioned in my OP, it could be more than just about an option to save Hawke's mom. I didn't find it well done either, or especially shocking. You could see it comming. What was more or less shocking for me was to find out there is actually no way to avoid it  and BW forces this BS on everyone. I just don't like how Hawke is supposed to be a hero and most of time helplessly watching things go wrong. Not in just this quest. They could at least have let Hawke win in some small scale, if there is nothing to gain in the long run. That's exaggerated depressing storytelling that I think doesn't make the majority of fans happy. People shouldn't publish stories they write while they are in a sort of midlife crisis or whatever. It's always embrarrassing.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 31 mars 2011 - 02:45 .

[yllamana]

I don't have any particular feelings regarding this part of the story, but I would like to express a caution against setting up the story purely for emotional impact. The game ending that I can remember impacting me the most was the one from Halo: Reach. I was really legitimately upset to the point that I haven't played through it again even though I think it's a really cool game because knowing that horrible ending is still there ruins the entire thing for me.

More emotional impact isn't necessarily better, and I'd really caution against thinking it is because I don't want anyone to feel how I did about Reach, and that entire thing was caused by developers forcing a terrible ending on people because they felt it'd have more impact. It did, and it completely ruined the game for me forevermore as a result.

FWIW, the thing that made the Leandra quest stand out to me was Hawke's reaction - Hawke being, for once, emotionally rattled instead of the usual wisecracking heroine. I think that would have held even if Leandra did eventually live (imagining teary-eyed Hawke embracing Leandra, still upset).