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"It's Because I'm Insane"


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#1
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The world of Dragon Age is a world infused with magic and prowled by spirits, but part of its charm is in its realism, in how it is closely similar to our reality. Dragon Age II's plot demonstrates this point particularly well, as it deals with the realistic personal struggles of a refuge and the tangled politics of a merchant city state. This is a bold departure from the usual 'Hero saves the world from Evil' fantasy cliche and a tremendous credit to BioWare's part.

However, I have found that the antagonists in Dragon Age II to be less realistic or believable than the excellent plot. I find it to be a step down from DA:O in general. In DA:O I really like Loghain as a villain because he was so real and believable, and his actions are reasonable from his perspective. I love to hate him as a sinister backstabber, but I also understand his position and respect him as the hero he is. Arl Howe is also very realistic - there are people like him and Loghain in our history and in our present day world.

In DA 2, by contrast, I am often dumb-founded by how unreasonably insane/stupid the antagonists are. I can find very little real world analogies of them. Well, except the Arishok, which is an excellent antagonist: complex, completely alien, and yet completely self-consistent in his motives. In Act 3 however, both Meredith and Orsino are so completely messed up it's really hard to suspend disbelief.

Meredith takes a particularly bad turn - she's so respectable and reasonable (from her perspective) all along, that even my Mage Hawke supported her despite her harsh stances and Hawke's deep misgivings. Then in the end she suddenly turns insane because of a piece of lyrium? WTF? It's like a perfectly good character is suddenly ruined because the writers demands that she be evil with this obstrusive plot artifact.

Orsino is not much better either. He seems a rational, reasonable voice, a good protector and voice of the Circle. His reaction to Anders's terrorist act was exactly what I feel: "Why would you do such a thing?" "You've doomed us all!". But then it turns out he's actually just as insane as Anders and Meredith, and he's actually a friend of the fiend who murdered your mother and a Harvester. I mean WTF? Why can't anyone be a good villain, but not an insane one? And why do I get the feeling that BioWare is turning both Orsino AND Meredith insane so that we can have two boss fights by the end of Act 3?

Anders for me is at least believable, in that his insanity and terrorism are well-developed and progresses gradually, and that there are a lot of real-world terrorists who are just as idealist as he is. I was so relieved when he said it's not Justice who prompted him to do it, that he and Justice are one and the same person. I was completely exhausted by the horde of insane antagonists in DA2 by then.

I need not even mention the lesser villains/antagonists. The worst I can think of immediately are Quentin, Huon, and Grace. It's like I'm watching Scary Movie or some cheap horror flick where no one has any true motive beyond insanity. They even all have the stereotypical death-grey face/demonic eyes to go along with it. If you're too lazy to write a villain who has an understandable motive beyond insanity, would you please at least make them look normal so that I can take them seriously?

Seriously, is it too much to ask for a villain who has complex thoughts, motives, and reasons beyond insanity? I'm not descriminated against insane people, but even insane people have their own reason and logic. Meredith and Orsino just feel like completely believable and sympathizable characters until their minds are suddenly twisted by evil writers.

Thank you, BioWare, for the excellent plot and companions, but you really came short in the villains department this time. Well, except the Arishok. I think I'll end my game play by the end of Act 2 from now on.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 14 mars 2011 - 06:28 .


#2
yogolol

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Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive. Meredith though, you`re spot on, she was fine until she went bat**** insane, got insane godly powers from some lyrium and turned into Saren from the first ME.

Modifié par yogolol, 14 mars 2011 - 06:31 .


#3
MasterSamson88

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yogolol wrote...

Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive.


he's also been under constant extreme pressure for the past decade.

#4
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MasterSamson88 wrote...

yogolol wrote...

Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive.


he's also been under constant extreme pressure for the past decade.

Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.

#5
yogolol

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

yogolol wrote...

Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive.


he's also been under constant extreme pressure for the past decade.

Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.


Which ending did you do? I did the mage and I got why he would turn, maybe it`s different for the templar ending.

#6
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yogolol wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.


Which ending did you do? I did the mage and I got why he would turn, maybe it`s different for the templar ending.


I sided with the Templars and I felt it unbelievable. I think the Mage ending is even less believable - you're working with him to save the Mages and he turns on you? WTF? And he seemed like a thin wise old man too, turned into a dumb fat walking corpse. What kind of mockery is this? Maker help me suspend disbelief.

#7
Arrtis

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It gets worse.
Unless you side with templars.

#8
Ltcoolny

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Bioware took quite a chance to change the tone and mood of the game I must say. But in the end I can't help but feel they are trying to present some message about people can change for the worse and even in dark times, it can break the best of us.

The antagonists, namely Meredith and Orsino, are meant to show the two extremes of both side. They were reasonable until a single act of vengeance from Anders triggered the worse of their beliefs. Meredith is scared of mages and their capabilities for destruction in the wrong hands and Orsino wanted peace for both sides, but is tired of being discriminated and fears he will have no fulfillment in life. This is a theme of bad guys don't turn bad overnight, they had a history and you are given the chance to see what the outcome of it is.

#9
AtreiyaN7

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Anders isn't insane by any means - he just becomes more militant and extremist (with a dose of paranoia thrown in). Meredith became increasingly oppressive over the years, and the idol wasn't responsible for that. She was actually oppressive from the very start - it just gets worse over the years. Eventually, she reaches that point where her own paranoid/fears about mages provoke her into making a terrible decision (to use the idol to create that sword). At that point, things are finally out of control and go downhill. Orsino cracked at the end - broken by the strain and the destruction and seeing his mages killed. He couldn't save his people, and he was tired of Meredith's insanity, so I think he gave up all hope. To be treated like a caged animal for so many years, threatened with the Rite of Annulment, etc...I can see why he gave up and did what he did.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 mars 2011 - 06:45 .


#10
rumination888

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

yogolol wrote...

Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive.


he's also been under constant extreme pressure for the past decade.

Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.


Orsino has always been insane. He was corresponding with Leandra's killer for years. Ever hear of those stories in real life where people are shocked when a person they think they know is actually a crazy sociopath?

#11
ZeroDotZero

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iOnlySignIn wrote...
Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.


Orsino's insanity threshold was hardly low. He was fending off a paranoid templar-commander for all of DA2, possibly long before it. She clearly wanted to rid Kirkwall of the mages, and that is enough to send the First Enchanter insane. She was right though, he was encouraging and harbouring blood mages. I wouldn't call that insanity, however, just morally grey. Doing magic research at great cost (Leandra).

Meredith however just went mental due to exposure to the mad macguffin. Maybe the idol will be back to play a bigger role in DA3.

#12
MasterSamson88

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

yogolol wrote...

Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive.


he's also been under constant extreme pressure for the past decade.

Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.


Welcome to a fictional fantasy story?

#13
maselphie

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They're desperate, not insane. Is that the same thing? Hmm.

#14
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Ltcoolny wrote...

Bioware took quite a chance to change the tone and mood of the game I must say. But in the end I can't help but feel they are trying to present some message about people can change for the worse and even in dark times, it can break the best of us.

The antagonists, namely Meredith and Orsino, are meant to show the two extremes of both side. They were reasonable until a single act of vengeance from Anders triggered the worse of their beliefs. Meredith is scared of mages and their capabilities for destruction in the wrong hands and Orsino wanted peace for both sides, but is tired of being discriminated and fears he will have no fulfillment in life. This is a theme of bad guys don't turn bad overnight, they had a history and you are given the chance to see what the outcome of it is.


You are absolutely correct in the author's intent, I believe. However, I think they failed at it. The trigger was pulled too fast - the whole of Act 3 feels too short and under-developed. I'd love to see some foreshadows of Meredith and Orsino's insanity, or at least some gradual increase in tension and anxiety. Instead it was pretty much a balanced and steady situation until Anders did his frelling bomb thing. Instead we get 2 quest lines from both Meredith and Orsino, which were barely enough to let you appreciate the situation, let a lone develope it.

The Qunari storyline is much better because it progresses gradually.

Of course, they can all push it to the 'three year have passed in which you don't know everything that happend'. I hope they release some sort of Act 2.5 to better develop this, I really do.

#15
MasterSamson88

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Ltcoolny wrote...

Bioware took quite a chance to change the tone and mood of the game I must say. But in the end I can't help but feel they are trying to present some message about people can change for the worse and even in dark times, it can break the best of us.

The antagonists, namely Meredith and Orsino, are meant to show the two extremes of both side. They were reasonable until a single act of vengeance from Anders triggered the worse of their beliefs. Meredith is scared of mages and their capabilities for destruction in the wrong hands and Orsino wanted peace for both sides, but is tired of being discriminated and fears he will have no fulfillment in life. This is a theme of bad guys don't turn bad overnight, they had a history and you are given the chance to see what the outcome of it is.


You are absolutely correct in the author's intent, I believe. However, I think they failed at it. The trigger was pulled too fast - the whole of Act 3 feels too short and under-developed. I'd love to see some foreshadows of Meredith and Orsino's insanity, or at least some gradual increase in tension and anxiety. Instead it was pretty much a balanced and steady situation until Anders did his frelling bomb thing. Instead we get 2 quest lines from both Meredith and Orsino, which were barely enough to let you appreciate the situation, let a lone develope it.

The Qunari storyline is much better because it progresses gradually.

Of course, they can all push it to the 'three year have passed in which you don't know everything that happend'. I hope they release some sort of Act 2.5 to better develop this, I really do.


The point of Act III is that you've been dealing with the mages and templars on the sidelines for the past 6 years and now as Champion you actually have a say in this long debate.

The Templars Mage story line isn't new to Act III, it's just finally brought into the spotlight full force.

#16
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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Anders isn't insane by any means - he just becomes more militant and extremist (with a dose of paranoia thrown in). Meredith became increasingly oppressive over the years, and the idol wasn't responsible for that. She was actually oppressive from the very start - it just gets worse over the years. Eventually, she reaches that point where her own paranoid/fears about mages provoke her into making a terrible decision (to use the idol to create that sword). At that point, things are finally out of control and go downhill. Orsino cracked at the end - broken by the strain and the destruction and seeing his mages killed. He couldn't save his people, and he was tired of Meredith's insanity, so I think he gave up all hope. To be treated like a caged animal for so many years, threatened with the Rite of Annulment, etc...I can see why he gave up and did what he did.


I don't get any hint of Meredith's growing oppression/paranoia over the years. The oppression cannot be attributed to her, but to characters like Ser Alrik, and it certain haven't been growing. Most of the 'Evil Templars' storylines occur early on in the game (Act 1 mostly), and actually thins out as the plot progresses.

Being caged is no reason for Orsino to crack. All Circle Mages are caged, right since their childhood. It's not a particularly drast change for them. And Orsino certainly strikes me as wise enough to not to resort to abominable measures which will only further the hatred for Mages.

#17
Ltcoolny

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maselphie wrote...

They're desperate, not insane. Is that the same thing? Hmm.


Hm...how about, desperate and insane? Combination of it I believe

#18
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rumination888 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Well, he certainly didn't show that he can't handle it until the second he turned into a Harvester. I read all the codex and I failed to see why it's necessary for him to turn insane. If every political figure in our world, or any world, has an insanity threshold as low as Orsino's or Meredith's, the world would have been destroyed every 10 years.


Orsino has always been insane. He was corresponding with Leandra's killer for years. Ever hear of those stories in real life where people are shocked when a person they think they know is actually a crazy sociopath?

True, but they don't come in such numbers and frequency. One insane sociopath is enough for a story IMO, not all 256 of them and not from every side of the conflict.

#19
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ZeroDotZero wrote...

Orsino's insanity threshold was hardly low. He was fending off a paranoid templar-commander for all of DA2, possibly long before it. She clearly wanted to rid Kirkwall of the mages, and that is enough to send the First Enchanter insane. She was right though, he was encouraging and harbouring blood mages. I wouldn't call that insanity, however, just morally grey. Doing magic research at great cost (Leandra).

He took on the job willingly and knowlingly. It's the job of every First Enchanter in every Circle. You don't see all of them go insane, just Orsino. Wynne was faced with Annulment as well, but she remained calm and well-balanced throughout.

#20
Red Templar

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I see your point, though it doesn't bother me so much.

I rather like that Orsino was just a lying son of a birch who schemed and indulged in sick stuff behind the scenes while pretending to be upstanding and righteous. It is a nice horrific touch that shows you that Meredith wasn't completely deluded and that there really was bad stuff going on that she was reacting to.

As more Meredith... I am sure there could have been ways to handle her without the crazy card, but the crazy card helps make her sympathetic when she otherwise might be seen as pure totalitarian evil. She was originally a hard but fair woman, in a genuinely difficult situation, dealing with utterly corrupt mages hidden in every shadow, and completely devoted to her calling. Pulling the crazy card helps to vilify her without the narrative denouncing her cause as invalid, and therefore helps to sidestep the risk of the narrative falling into the "good guys bad guys" trap.

#21
reddragon567

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Act 3 was really a bummer. Act 2 was where the story should have ended. The only "real" part of Act 3 was Anders. Then it was a locked in ending with no room for change.

Your decisions matter to the arishok. He will duel you, or try and gank you with a thousand qunari. Depending on how he feels about you. Things like that.

Act 3 was definitely rushed. They were building up to this "choose a side" thing throughout the game, then led to a set-in-stone ending.

#22
ArcanistLibram

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yogolol wrote...

Well to defend Orsino, he was locked in a room being overwhelmed by templars with very little hope of survival. I would probably snap too and use some forbidden magic if it had a chance at keeping me alive. Meredith though, you`re spot on, she was fine until she went bat**** insane, got insane godly powers from some lyrium and turned into Saren from the first ME.


Orsino was chilling in a locked room while I used my Force/Lightning combo to destroy wave after wave of helpless Templars. He really didn't need to resort to Blood Magic.

Meredith, I assume she was always insane. The relic might have made her more powerful, but it's not like it affected her nearly as much as it did Bartrand.

#23
Statulos

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Anders makes even less sense when you basicaly see that he´s quite incoherent. You´re fighting for freedom for mages but those mages keep on demonstrating that they´re not capable of keeping their dangerous capacities at bay?

Great! So are you telling me that you want freedom for a bunch of people that massively turn to blood magic, that turn into abominations on a normal basis or even try to become the new great power to take down the Chantry to get their place? Cool, freedom for the mages but slavery for the rest! Great choice, dude!

#24
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Red Templar wrote...

I see your point, though it doesn't bother me so much.

I rather like that Orsino was just a lying son of a birch who schemed and indulged in sick stuff behind the scenes while pretending to be upstanding and righteous. It is a nice horrific touch that shows you that Meredith wasn't completely deluded and that there really was bad stuff going on that she was reacting to.

As more Meredith... I am sure there could have been ways to handle her without the crazy card, but the crazy card helps make her sympathetic when she otherwise might be seen as pure totalitarian evil. She was originally a hard but fair woman, in a genuinely difficult situation, dealing with utterly corrupt mages hidden in every shadow, and completely devoted to her calling. Pulling the crazy card helps to vilify her without the narrative denouncing her cause as invalid, and therefore helps to sidestep the risk of the narrative falling into the "good guys bad guys" trap.


I'd prefer Meredith as pure totalitarian evil because evil totalitarians in our world are not crazy by lyrium. As she is now, she is an inferior and degenerated version of Loghain IMHO.

#25
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reddragon567 wrote...

Act 3 was really a bummer. Act 2 was where the story should have ended. The only "real" part of Act 3 was Anders. Then it was a locked in ending with no room for change.

Your decisions matter to the arishok. He will duel you, or try and gank you with a thousand qunari. Depending on how he feels about you. Things like that.

Act 3 was definitely rushed. They were building up to this "choose a side" thing throughout the game, then led to a set-in-stone ending.


Exactly. Act 3 is so weak compared to Acts 1 and 2. I hope there are DLCs to flesh it out further.