59 réponses à ce sujet

[Andros_Hanarak]

I wouldn't call them turning evil. I would say they became so entangled in their ideals that could not see anything else. Orsino was the voice of reason pushed to a corner and was going to be killed when he says "they want blood mages, I will give them blood mages" and turns into the harvester.

Meredith was paranoid and thanks to the idol became even more so. If you want to find a culprit for everything in Kirkwall, look no further than to Hawke and Varric and their Deep Roads Expedition, or perhaps we can blame Bartrand, since he became also insane, took the idol and left you to rot on that place.

[Dave of Canada]

So Orsino helping supply the man who killed your mother and revive her as a shambled corpse was completely sane and logical until the ending?

[Statulos]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Statulos wrote...

Anders makes even less sense when you basicaly see that he´s quite incoherent. You´re fighting for freedom for mages but those mages keep on demonstrating that they´re not capable of keeping their dangerous capacities at bay?

Great! So are you telling me that you want freedom for a bunch of people that massively turn to blood magic, that turn into abominations on a normal basis or even try to become the new great power to take down the Chantry to get their place? Cool, freedom for the mages but slavery for the rest! Great choice, dude!

Completely agree. I wish there's a dialogue option saying "And how in the name of Andraste's flaming sword is THIS going to HELP the Mages you idiotic SOB?"

Well at least it's done better than Meredith or Orsino. Justice surfacing now and then certainly speaks the problem, and Anders's mining quest trickery certainly set off my alarms.

Let´s make a comparison. My version of Hawke is a very powerful two handed warrior with reaver specialization. Yes, I walk the line in this sense since reavers are warriors who tasted the blood of a dragon and dance with death and pain to be more powerful. Fine till that, I´m guilty of using shady powers.

However, I do not go and kill every dude of the Coterie because some of them assulted me, I do not go and kill every noble of Kirkwall to get more power, I do not go and kill my ludopath spoiled uncle because he´s an ass, I do not go and despise every elf because they´re inferior and overall, I did not go an kill every qunari.

Somebody should remember Spiderman´s classic motto: "with great power comes great responsability". If you push the line, you should have the willpower to restrain and not become abusive.

[rumination888]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Completely agree. I wish there's a dialogue option saying "And how in the name of Andraste's flaming sword is THIS going to HELP the Mages you idiotic SOB?"

He did it for Vengeance. Capital 'V'

Edit: Oh, and if you did Anders final quest beforehand, then one can assume he also did it to be seperated from his spirit. Like Anders said before, the only way to be seperated is by death...

Modifié par rumination888, 14 mars 2011 - 07:41 .

[Statulos]

rumination888 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Completely agree. I wish there's a dialogue option saying "And how in the name of Andraste's flaming sword is THIS going to HELP the Mages you idiotic SOB?"

He did it for Vengeance. Capital 'V'

Edit: Oh, and if you did Anders final quest beforehand, then one can assume he also did it to be seperated from his spirit. Like Anders said before, the only way to be seperated is by death...

See? Right there is a cheap narrative device comparable to LSD induced eeeer lyrium induced insanity like Meredith. So it is Vengance the one that actually blows up the chantry.

Great! So all my work to calm down Anders, to just be nice to him, to allow him to be a normal social person means nothing? If it was his anger what turned Justice into Vengance, why can´t I contribute to calm him down and bring the spirit in him back to his former self?

[ArawnNox]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So Orsino helping supply the man who killed your mother and revive her as a shambled corpse was completely sane and logical until the ending?

I'm not convinced Orsino knew exactly what the murder was doing (I forget his name). He was just seeing results of research that, for all he knew, was being done on cadavers and not innocent victims. What it does conferm, however, is that Orsino condoned research of forbidden/questionable magics.

[Dave of Canada]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

He knows Quentin. I did not get the sense that he actually helped him kill your mother or kill anyone else. In fact I vaguely recall that Orsino asked Quentin to leave.

In the quest where you're looking for your mother, there's a letter from the Circle in Quentin's hideout that's signed by "O" and if I recall correctly it says that "O" supplied Quentin with Necromancy books. There also must've been an exchange of information between both if Orsino had Quentin's research.

In other words, Orsino didn't kill your mother directly but he sure did help the murderer do what he wanted. In the Templar ending, I believe he outright says it.

At the very least, you don't get this info until the very end. It's as bad as Meredith's lyrium as a plot artifact.

True but many people seem to be defending Orsino "snapping" at the final moment by saying he was sane and logical beforehand, while the Quentin scenario brings some questions to that.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 mars 2011 - 08:05 .

[Wowlock]

At the Act 1you feel like a newcomer trying to move up and survive while finding interesting allies ( which was cool )
At Act 2 you get to feel how important you become and you can see the cool Qunari - Thedas interaction. And deeper feeling about your compaions ( not to mention your family troubles )

Act 3.......well you go fight against all odds and against some Super-saiyan-like Templar Commander got influenced by the cursed idol you found...and your companion you tried to help brings a world-wide war to Thedas by blowing up the ONLY reasonable leader Grand Cleric.....which shows that Fade spirits either good or bad , has their own ideals that won't fit with the mortal world. And Anders paid for it. Besides the romance endings in the Act 3 , there was other thing that gave me a little hope , finding your cousin and reunite her with your Uncle.

The story progressed too pessimistic , I was sure that after Leandra died , Gamlen would follow soon after , but I am glad we found a ''stable '' relative ( and she is a cool character I might add) I just wished we could have a new quest from her.

[rumination888]

Statulos wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Completely agree. I wish there's a dialogue option saying "And how in the name of Andraste's flaming sword is THIS going to HELP the Mages you idiotic SOB?"

He did it for Vengeance. Capital 'V'

Edit: Oh, and if you did Anders final quest beforehand, then one can assume he also did it to be seperated from his spirit. Like Anders said before, the only way to be seperated is by death...

See? Right there is a cheap narrative device comparable to LSD induced eeeer lyrium induced insanity like Meredith. So it is Vengance the one that actually blows up the chantry.

Great! So all my work to calm down Anders, to just be nice to him, to allow him to be a normal social person means nothing? If it was his anger what turned Justice into Vengance, why can´t I contribute to calm him down and bring the spirit in him back to his former self?

Anders stopped being himself long before he met Hawke. He is technically an abomination. There is nothing you can do to help except seperate the spirit from him. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand that, and instead, seem to be lashing out by calling it a "cheap narrative device".

[Statulos]

Anders clearly states that he changed Justice due to his anger, right in the moment you meet him. If it worked one way, why not the other?

[Pyrate_d]

the bottom line is that meredith and orsino rob you of an interesting decision with their craziness. If you could only kill the one you were fighting against, there would actually be a decision to make. Since you can't, it's pretty much linear.

In fact, there really weren't any decisions that had interesting outcomes in DA2. Even if a character shows up years later and does something, you can be sure that if you had killed them before, it would have happened anyway.

[Svest]

Statulos wrote...

Anders clearly states that he changed Justice due to his anger, right in the moment you meet him. If it worked one way, why not the other?

Because you are a warrior not a psychologist.  Plus you can't help someone who doesn't want help.  Just because your Hawke wanted to and tried to calm Anders doesn't mean he would or should be able to actually do it.

[screamin_jesus]

I agree, I loved some aspects of the story, the qunari parts especially were brilliant. The story in some ways was a step up from DA:O and other bioware games, because as you said the setting wasn't the generic "save the world". But then they went and soured the end with a pretty generic Villian.

I loved the game but with things like this you can really tell the last portion of the game was rushed, this game needed more than a year of dev time. It was a solid game, but act 3 shows a lack of polish with all the quest glitches and a decline in the writing, in an otherwise excellent story.

Regarding anders though I do someone believe his actions, even If I really didn't like them. He is always talking about how he is losing more and more control to justice, and at the end justice seems to be taking the drivers seat.

[ArawnNox]

screamin_jesus wrote...
The story in some ways was a step up from DA:O and other bioware games, because as you said the setting wasn't the generic "save the world". But then they went and soured the end with a pretty generic Villian.

I think where they really stumbled with the framed narrative was in the villain(s). We didn't really encounter them until the end of Act 2 and didn't get any interaction out of them until Act 3 and by then, they were rather fargone. They should have been more of a factor in the story from the begining, it would have made them more compelling and given us something, as players, to latch on to.

[AtreiyaN7]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Anders isn't insane by any means - he just becomes more militant and extremist (with a dose of paranoia thrown in). Meredith became increasingly oppressive over the years, and the idol wasn't responsible for that. She was actually oppressive from the very start - it just gets worse over the years. Eventually, she reaches that point where her own paranoid/fears about mages provoke her into making a terrible decision (to use the idol to create that sword). At that point, things are finally out of control and go downhill. Orsino cracked at the end - broken by the strain and the destruction and seeing his mages killed. He couldn't save his people, and he was tired of Meredith's insanity, so I think he gave up all hope. To be treated like a caged animal for so many years, threatened with the Rite of Annulment, etc...I can see why he gave up and did what he did.

I don't get any hint of Meredith's growing oppression/paranoia over the years. The oppression cannot be attributed to her, but to characters like Ser Alrik, and it certain haven't been growing. Most of the 'Evil Templars' storylines occur early on in the game (Act 1 mostly), and actually thins out as the plot progresses.

Being caged is no reason for Orsino to crack. All Circle Mages are caged, right since their childhood. It's not a particularly drast change for them. And Orsino certainly strikes me as wise enough to not to resort to abominable measures which will only further the hatred for Mages.

Really? So the fact that Meredith wouldn't let the nobles elect a new viscount and attemtpted to take control the city guard wasn't a sign of tyrannical behavior? The fact that she forced Orsino to remain in The Gallows wasn't repressing free speech? The increase in the number of mages made Tranquil was somehow justifiable? Alrik was on his own with his plan, but he was a symptom of the level of dysfunction in the system  that existed because of Meredith. And as far as Orsino goes, let me repeat what I said about him seeing all his mages being slaughtered like cattle. At that point, I think he just couldn't take it anymore and saw no hope of a way out.

[trembli0s]

I did feel Act III was also rushed, especially compared to the great pacing in II.

It was like everyone in the city simultaneously went bat-**** crazy. Meredith was at least more believable because I at least had some idea that she was somewhat tyrannical and increasingly paranoid throughout the game. When she crossed the line and everyone said no maybe that was the push the idol needed to get her TOTALLY nuts. Maybe.

As a mage who sided pro-mage the first time, I was very unsatisfied. Anders/Vengeance made sense and I pretty much viewed V as a demon corrupted by Anders' anger. No big deal, shanked him and be done with it/

Then I mop the floor with all the templars and Quentin turns into a Harvester for no reason.... WHAT???

So I killed a High Dragon, an ancient Pride Demon, the Arishok, ETC ETC ETC and yet he can't trust me for 30 minutes to just obliterate the templars? Not believable at all.

[Lauretha_L]

Eh, I kind of don't want to copy and paste so I'll just link to this thread and my post on the first page of it -- which is mainly my defence of Orsino when you think of it

http://social.biowar...index/6548102/1

[Red Templar]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Really? So the fact that Meredith wouldn't let the nobles elect a new viscount and attemtpted to take control the city guard wasn't a sign of tyrannical behavior?

Maybe imo, but not completely unjustified. The only worthy candidate for the position was Hawke, and his loyalties weren't fully proven yet. Kirkwall was dealing with a very real problem of very bad mages doing very bad things. I don't really fault Meredith for not allowing some unproven chap of questionable commitments to take the throne during a time of crisis.

It is very questionable and certainly not ideal, but I can't rightly think of a better alternative that was clearly available to her.

The fact that she forced Orsino to remain in The Gallows wasn't repressing free speech?

I don't think Thedas has any notion of freedom of speech. That is a more modern notion. Medieval societies would lop your head off or burn you alive for uttering treason or blasphemy. I doubt Thedas is any different.

And as far as Orsino goes, let me repeat what I said about him seeing all his mages being slaughtered like cattle. At that point, I think he just couldn't take it anymore and saw no hope of a way out.

Orsino knowingly protected Quentin for years, and helped his research and experiments, while pretending to be an upstanding, puritan mage. Orsino was not a reasonable guy backed into a corner. Orsino was a big part of the problem from the get go. He just lied and was subtle enough to not be the obvious antagonist that Meredith was.

[mredders91]

eh the ending just made me think of the worlds today...

no matter who you side with it all gone to f.u.b.a.r

not much else i would think to say seeming how most thing that i would have already been post by you lovely lot.

ill just back up the fact that act 3 was short and uninspiring to the other 2 acts but hwy maybe there pull a rabbit out of there hats with some dlc realating to both the mages and templars

[Vandicus]

Meredith I find a tragic character, because she was driven to an extreme by the lyrium. Orsino is just a jerk, I am glad that he died. However, I found both of the ideologies they represented had very valid points. I don't really think of either of them quite as villains, except for Orsino because of his participation in researching very advanced forms of blood magic with the Kirkwall Killer(which leads me to believe the much of the blood magic in the city may be laid at his feet)

**SPOILERS**

Those who actually know the DA:O story because of the books know that Loghain is just crazy. The battle at Ostagar could've been won, and was supposed to look that way. Loghain did not abandon Cailan because of a desire to preserve the army, which is a common misconception. This all in fact ties back to a promise that Loghain made Maric when Maric demanded that Loghain stay. Loghain swears to help Fereldan, no matter the cost. Because of this, Loghain convinces Maric to kill his beloved without telling him info that might've stayed  Maric's hand. Later, Loghain wants Cailan to die because of Cailan's apparent willingness to have friendly relationships with Orlais. Loghain is so crazy that he believes Orlais to be the only threat to the country of Fereldan, which is why he rejects 200 Grey Wardens who come to save them from the Blight. In The Calling, Loghain believes that Wardens asking for aid from Maric are part of a conspiracy to assassinate Maric and attribute his death to darkspawn. Loghain appears to be heavily irrational and have some delusions that suggest he is in fact paranoid.

[UltiPup]

I really liked the fact that Bioware tried to go for a more realistic ending. Is one side better than the other? Its not set in stone. Its up to you. Both sides have their faults and their strengths. Both leaders believed what was best for their world and yet fell to their own sins.

And its amazing how they are quite the opposites. Meredith, from nearly the very beginning, was shown to us as a strong and determined leader. She took no excuses and had a strong grip on all under her. Orsino was much more passionate and understanding ( on the surface ). But both were prideful and stubborn. Neither would bother to compromise. It was always their way or nothing.

We were given two very powerful figures as adversaries. We thought we were siding with allies only to be turned on. We all felt betrayed when we learned our figure head was insane and willing to kill us. With Meredith, she wanted what was best for Kirkwall. And she was determined to have that no matter the cost. Ruthless but at least admirable. Orsino always did it for his mages. And as we find out, he went to extreme measures to do that. One was driven to deep insanity because of a relic believed to help her, the other cracked under the pressures and paranoia of the opposing side.

Two tragic characters. Not every day you can be given that.

Modifié par UltiPup, 15 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[IronVanguard]

I blame Kirkwall. Read the letters of the Band of Three. That city isn't normal man.
Countless slaves and deaths, weak veil, secret research, runes made of streets. Those letters really made me think something was off about that city.

Modifié par IronVanguard, 15 mars 2011 - 02:04 .