166 réponses à ce sujet

[Amioran]

60DollarsWasted wrote...

Like others have said, it's not that I have a problem with enemy reinforcements. Reinforcements make sense in a lot of cases depending on the location of the battle etc.

But it's not done fairly, it's not done logically, and it's done way too often.

It is done often because it's one of the more efficient ways to break the lines of the party and make you beware of positioning in a gameplay that has aggro abilities.

If you don't break the lines the only thing you can care of is about the first line not to fall apart. What there is of tactic and strategic in it? Nothing. More, you can "create" enemies that have as much health/damage as you want but till you keep the first line intact there will be no challenge at all, never.

Watch for example an encounter as one of the most difficult battles, the High Dragon. Also if it may seem the contrary when you learn how to keep the first line intact that battle is very very easy, no matter if the Dragon does an insane amount of damage and has an insane amount of health. It is much easier than either simple skirmish on mid-game on nightmare if you know what you are doing.

Modifié par Amioran, 15 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[ItsToofy]

Amioran wrote...

60DollarsWasted wrote...

Like others have said, it's not that I have a problem with enemy reinforcements. Reinforcements make sense in a lot of cases depending on the location of the battle etc.

But it's not done fairly, it's not done logically, and it's done way too often.

It is done often because it's one of the more efficient ways to break the lines of the party and make you beware of positioning in a gameplay that has aggro abilities.

If you don't break the lines the only thing you can care of is about the first line not to fall apart. What there is of tactic and strategic in it? Nothing. More, you can do enemies have has much health/damage as you want but till you keep the first line impact there will be no challenge at all, never.

What's also so strategic about being surrounded at all times regardless of your positioning of your companions? no point in even having a line when the spawns of baddies get you at all angles.

[Amioran]

ItsToofy wrote...
What's also so strategic about being surrounded at all times regardless of your positioning of your companions? no point in even having a line when the spawns of baddies get you at all angles.

What part of "breaking the lines of the party" don't you comprehend? It is not so difficult to understand, isn't it?

First line - Tanks
Middle line - high dps melee party members
Last line - ranged and mages.

If you don't break the first line (the one of the tank(s)) there will never be any challenge, no matter the encounter. 

All difficult and strategic RPGs break the lines of the party with encirlement as BG, Ultima, etc. are clear examples.

Modifié par Amioran, 15 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[Rivehn]

Final Fantasy..Random battles.

[Crackseed]

I actually agree with this topic as well - my major frustration in playing the game so far has been this particular mechanic. DA:O had some "spawn in" fights but they always usually rushed in from off screen, which was fine. The enemies jumping down from the roofs or spiders roping in doesn't bug me but when you have random waves of enemies automatically popping into view and your poor tank can only throw 1 taunt with a long cooldown and still not get half the mobs swarming my archer/mages, it gets REALLY aggravating, especially on the higher difficulties where they knock you around alot and hit very hard.

I think this mechanic more then anything needs to be replaced by something that functions properly - it does end up being cheesy and incredibly aggravating when you're already taxed on cooldowns and lose a fight repeatedly because you get jumped by a magically appearing respawn wave right in the middle of your team.

Combined with the ludicrous "teleporting invisible" mage enemies who always seem to vanish and re-appear far away to cast spells uninterrupted, it was the one sore point of DA2's combat for me.

All in all the game has been a blast, but this particular mechanic change was a really poor choice IMO.

[AkiKishi]

Rivehn wrote...

Final Fantasy..Random battles.

You can turn those off with the right item or ability.

[Galad22]

This is so damn frustrating.

[Sarevok Anchev]

Amioran wrote...

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

This wasnt even in Mass Effect 2; i dont know how this idea got realized for a RPG with "strategic" battles?
I mean: they appear out of nowhere!

They are not summoned!

Couldn't you use a little more your fantasy? They come from roofs, from hidden places etc.

As for the strategic I repeat another time: LEARN HOW TO POSITION YOUR PARTY INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING. In a gameplay that has aggro abilities breaking the lines is necessary. This is tactic and strategic. What would not be strategic at all would, in fact, be a gameplay as DAO that had not breaking the lines of the party.

In BG, for example, breaking the lines always happened. In that case swarms where not necessary because DnD doesn't have aggro abilities.

Why shouldnt I complain?
You are right about the animation for thieves and other humans who attack you in the city.
But the rest isnt following the rules.

Look at the topic-name: "Enemies spawn out of nowhere"

Im complaining about:
1. no effort on behalf of the Bioware Designers and Programmers to fit in principles for befitting battle engagements.
2. about the overall "generic" feel of most of the battles in DA2 (i have played DA:O, DA:A, ME, ME2 and i have never complained about such a thing.
You may think im just trolling.
Im just saying, what i , as a customer, dislike about the buyed product. If there are other people who agree, Bioware will see the critics(because there will be several Topics like this if its obvious)
If not, then there will be disagreers like you and thats no issue for me


About you critisizing my gameplay: there is nothing to position, when the enemies spawn out of thin air AROUND (!) your Mage (best examples: Deep Roads - Expedition)

I have played RPG's from 90's till now and especially BG 1+2 .
I also know D&D and the reason, why in the actual game you wouldnt need such positioning, because no DM would be so stupid and behave against the logic of letting an enemy run by the warriors and go for the Mages.
And for clarification they added "Attack of Opportunity"(AoO) in D&D 3rd Edition to prevent this nonsense.
This was also a major "issue" for me when playing DA:O, because it is so "unrealistic" to make an enemy (no matter the intelligence) rush through the battle line and ignroing the mighty Sten!

[bluecapsule6]

Rivehn wrote...

Final Fantasy..Random battles.

Except no main Final Fantasy game in the last half decade has had random battles. Troll harder please. 

[Amioran]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
Im complaining about:
1. no effort on behalf of the Bioware Designers and Programmers to fit in principles for befitting battle engagements.

I don't understand what you would want. Many enemies are seen for example as falling off from roofs. Others appear to "rise" from the sewers of on caves or similars. What would you want? Complex animations of enemies lowering from the roofs? I don't get why this is SO important.

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
2. about the overall "generic" feel of most of the battles in DA2 (i have played DA:O, DA:A, ME, ME2 and i have never complained about such a thing.

Generic on what? ME is more of a shooter, it's all another thing. DAO gameplay is much less strategic than DA2 just because there's not the breaking of the lines. You just have to make sure the first line remains intact and there's no strategy nor difficulty involved.

There are many mods around that increase nightmare difficulty in DAO, yet none of them is challenging or difficult (apart some encounters that are so for various motives) exactly for this motive.

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
You may think im just trolling.
Im just saying, what i , as a customer, dislike about the buyed product. If there are other people who agree, Bioware will see the critics(because there will be several Topics like this if its obvious)

I never stated that you were trolling. I'm just trying to make you understand a point. Most of the "frustration" around about this is simply because many (also if they don't admit it) find the last lines always wiped out by the "dumbed down" gameplay. However naturally they cannot say this because it would prove the contrary, so they just play the card of "endless swarms are boring etc.".

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
About you critisizing my gameplay: there is nothing to position, when the enemies spawn out of thin air AROUND (!) your Mage (best examples: Deep Roads - Expedition)

There is. A) Use choke points when feasible, reposition rear line accordingly, C) don't attack with rear lines immediately, let first line attack first and gather aggro, D) if enemy comes for rear line use threat reducind abilities BEFORE the enemy is on you or if those are not present have a stronger party member draw the aggro while you reposition. It's not that difficult. In BG, Ultima, ToEE etc. I did this all the time (apart the threat reducing abilities).

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
I have played RPG's from 90's till now and especially BG 1+2 .
I also know D&D and the reason, why in the actual game you wouldnt need such positioning, because no DM would be so stupid and behave against the logic of letting an enemy run by the warriors and go for the Mages.

I don't know of which DMs you talk about, but surely not experienced ones. All experienced DMs in fact, use breaking the lines via encircling etc., elsewhere there's no challenge.

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
they added "Attack of Opportunity"(AoO) in D&D 3rd Edition to prevent this nonsense.

This has NOTHING to do with breaking the lines of YOUR party. If an enemy does so then THEY are breaking the lines of theirs. It is necessary sometimes to target high threath targets in the last lines of the enemy party, for this the AoOs and their logic, to prevent a FRONTAL avoidance of the first line. However this has nothing to do with breaking the lines as a concept to make a challenging gameplay, as having, for example, the party encircled or spawns from the rear.

In DnD aggro abiliities, then, don't exists. So it is not necessary a respawn after the first circling. Without further spawns in a sytme that has aggro abilities the first line will simply immediately drag all the threat and encirclement (or similar) would have no sense at all.

[ItsToofy]

Amioran wrote...

ItsToofy wrote...
What's also so strategic about being surrounded at all times regardless of your positioning of your companions? no point in even having a line when the spawns of baddies get you at all angles.

What part of "breaking the lines of the party" don't you comprehend? It is not so difficult to understand, isn't it?

First line - Tanks
Middle line - high dps melee party members
Last line - ranged and mages.

If you don't break the first line (the one of the tank(s)) there will never be any challenge, no matter the encounter. 

All difficult and strategic RPGs break the lines of the party with encirlement as BG, Ultima, etc. are clear examples.

To break  a line, one must have a line, which this game clearly does not have, as your last line will simply be overcome by spawned monsters from behind anyway.

[Sarevok Anchev]

I am ONLY talking about the lack of thoughtful spawning of enemies WITHOUT any animations!
The animations you state are correct and imo good.

The appearing of Bhaalspawn out of thin air makes this feel weird and unsatisfying.


The second issue: The overall battle-tide gameplay is imo not befitting for a 4-Man-Battle-Group!
For BG 1+2 it would be fine, because your rear would be defended by a Cleric and/or Warrior.
But here - like you stated- you have a frontline and a backline; but the backline isnt working because of
the -almost always- spawning enemies, that attack from behind.

For clarification: I have NO problem with the battles. Im not frustrated, because I loose because of this.

> I am pointing at the unimmersive and weak design of the battle-system
   When I say "OH! 6 Darkspawn appear suddenly around my Mage!"
I mean it! I do not mean: "Damn this Darkspawn are raing me!"

The tactics you say are true and I think it is obvious, that in DA2 the enemies cant go so easily and bypass your Warriors, because of the "Dashing" of the Warriors and Rogues, plus the overall Knockback, dependend on your Strength. Its a huge improvement! But its still a flawed gameplay imo!


About D&D and DM's: Im not talking about tactics and challenge  -again XD- but about the atmosphere.
Doesnt it feel "unrealistic" and strange, that (intelligent) enemies ignore the imminent threat and risk their life, only because a distant foe has scratched you with a Magic Missile, while a 2h-Warrior stands before you.

Sure, a stupid Barbarian, a raging Berserker or a Construct would ignore; also a Fanatic who gets ordered to sacrifice himself for killing the dangerous Mage.
But using that always isnt intelligent.

And like this there are always the Battle-Tides in DA2, where you know, that a rear line will be ganged in the second round.


As another experienced RPG-Madmen you should remeber this fights:
- the hidden Warehouse in the Temple District (BG2)
- the Tavern-Fight in Waukeens Promenade (BG2)
- the hidden Side-Entrance of the Temple of Elemental Evil (ToEE)

this are just 3 examples, where you can block the enemy from ganging your squishy party members and
the battle is started from the beginning like a frontal chess-battle.
There is no wave-system or other gimmicky needed! Its just you outsmarting the enemy and examples like at Waukeen's Promenade show you the possible choice of you either waiting to gather a 6-Men-Party, or to battle them at the beginning only with PC/Jaheira/Minsc (and or Aerie depending on your choice), making it harder for you!
This is what im missing in the newer games!
This is what went missing the moment Bioware made Neverwinter Nights and KotOR!
And this became even less interesting with the successors (NWN2, KotOR 2  > DA:O etc.)
I played all the games and I liked them, but its nothing compared to the strategic depth of
i.e.: the Defensive-Spell-System in BG2
A shame that ToEE didnt become a better overall game, but I think THIS has one of the best strategic battle-systems from all games!  (if you have another choice you can say it, im curious )

[Conduit0]

Now I'll grant you that some enemies just appearing out of thin air is weak and Bioware could have done a better job with it, however I have to agree with Amioran. The game gives you all the tools you need to deal with the spawning waves of enemies, the strategy is in using the abilities of your party effectively.

You can't game the system the way you could in DA:O and maybe thats whats giving people fits, but honestly I have to say, if you're having trouble coping with the waves of enemies its because you're not using your parties abilities to their fullest, and not because of some deficiency in game design.

[Galad22]

Conduit0 wrote...

Now I'll grant you that some enemies just appearing out of thin air is weak and Bioware could have done a better job with it, however I have to agree with Amioran. The game gives you all the tools you need to deal with the spawning waves of enemies, the strategy is in using the abilities of your party effectively.

You can't game the system the way you could in DA:O and maybe thats whats giving people fits, but honestly I have to say, if you're having trouble coping with the waves of enemies its because you're not using your parties abilities to their fullest, and not because of some deficiency in game design.

It is not about having trouble, it is annoying and stupid and it makes every damn fight insanely tedious and boring.

[Oliver Sudden]

Galad22 wrote...

It is not about having trouble, it is annoying and stupid and it makes every damn fight insanely tedious and boring.

Well, that and just a cheap trick.

[the_one_54321]

bluecapsule6 wrote...

Rivehn wrote...
Final Fantasy..Random battles.

Except no main Final Fantasy game in the last half decade has had random battles. Troll harder please.

From the main franchise FFX was the last one to have random battles. But even so, in that game and those prior to it, the battle system was constructed to accomidate those random battles and enemy placement didn't create a tactical handicap at the start of the battle.

Objective statement: spawning enemies in the middle of thin air, in a tactical combat based game, is a cheap and inadequate way to simulate challenge. It is like saying "I couldn't be bothered or am not clever enough to provide enemies that conform to usual rules of physics in the game world and still provide a challenge."

[Sarevok Anchev]

Conduit0 wrote...

Now I'll grant you that some enemies just appearing out of thin air is weak and Bioware could have done a better job with it, however I have to agree with Amioran. The game gives you all the tools you need to deal with the spawning waves of enemies, the strategy is in using the abilities of your party effectively.

You can't game the system the way you could in DA:O and maybe thats whats giving people fits, but honestly I have to say, if you're having trouble coping with the waves of enemies its because you're not using your parties abilities to their fullest, and not because of some deficiency in game design.

Im having no problem with the battles at all
Im just saying my oppinion, that I dislike the way the battles now work in Bioware games.

This reminds me of Doom3, where you walk from a closed room to a closed room and several waves of enemies spawn out of nowhere; thats not interesting  imo  <_<

What do you think?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Amioran wrote...

I'm just trying to make you understand a point. Most of the "frustration" around about this is simply because many (also if they don't admit it) find the last lines always wiped out by the "dumbed down" gameplay. However naturally they cannot say this because it would prove the contrary, so they just play the card of "endless swarms are boring etc.".

My complaint about the combat waves is that we can't plan for them since they appear out of nowhere.  And that they appear out of nowhere breaks the setting.  Where are these creatures coming from?  If I happened to go there first, would I find them?

What this combat design does is reduce DA2's combat to a simple game - it's no longer part of a coherent world.

It's not that difficult. In BG, Ultima, ToEE etc. I did this all the time (apart the threat reducing abilities).

I don't recall any BG enemies spawing out of nowhere.

I don't know of which DMs you talk about, but surely not experienced ones. All experienced DMs in fact, use breaking the lines via encircling etc., elsewhere there's no challenge.

That's far from the only way to introduce challenge.  Limiting strategic resources, or offering creative ways to inflict or avoid damage, or providing challenges beyond the ability of the party (from which they must flee to survive) - there are other ways to provide a challenge that don't involve nonsensical enemy behaviour.

[the_one_54321]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
What do you think?

I agree that it is a cheap design short cut. I was really unhappy at the few times it happened in DA:O, and I'm pretty darn unhappy to hear that it's a real problem in DA][.

[nightlordv]

Cody211282 wrote...

cotheer wrote...

I just hope for some mega patch that will get rid of those stupid waves and make initial one a bit harder, just to compensate.
For now it's just pure mess, i went from hard to casual just because of this "feature".
Seamus quest, anyone? Ugh.

The Tome of Evil quest in Act 2 or 3 was worse then this, I know it was a side quest but still, 4-5 waves of demons and abominations? What the hell is that, Abominations come from possesed mages not the ground.

I enjoyed the part where you get that book in the Viscount building. A place full of guards and people and they just stand their while you cut down waves of demons. Nice.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Amioran wrote...I don't know of which DMs you talk about, but surely not experienced ones. All experienced DMs in fact, use breaking the lines via encircling etc., elsewhere there's no challenge.

That's far from the only way to introduce challenge.  Limiting strategic resources, or offering creative ways to inflict or avoid damage, or providing challenges beyond the ability of the party (from which they must flee to survive) - there are other ways to provide a challenge that don't involve nonsensical enemy behaviour.

"Breaking the lines" can be very effectively and legitimately applied. Without setting breaking random spawns.

[Galad22]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
What do you think?

I agree that it is a cheap design short cut. I was really unhappy at the few times it happened in DA:O, and I'm pretty darn unhappy to hear that it's a real problem in DA][.

And it happens every fight. Every fight!

[Sylvius the Mad]

It has encouraged me to begin every fight by circling my opponents so I'm attacking them from the side BioWare didn't expect. That way I get to see the nonsensical spawning as it happens.

I can't help but wonder if this combat wave design is partly why they eliminated the isometric camera. The high-angle view would have made the sudden appearance of enemies look really dumb.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
It has encouraged me to begin every fight by circling my opponents so I'm attacking them from the side BioWare didn't expect. That way I get to see the nonsensical spawning as it happens.

Really? The "SURPRISE BUTTSECKS" spawns are actually completely cardinal direction based? Not only could they not have them placed tactically without magic spawning, they also couldn't have the enemy AI figure out where your flank or rear is? That is just out and out bad enemy combat tactical design. Just bad.

[Pedrak]

In general, it's an awful, sloppy and obnoxious design choice and it should never, ever be used in any game with a pretense of having a tactical element.
As a a reviewer noted, "It's like playing chess with someone that swipes the pieces off the board every turn."