238 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I just finished the game a few minutes ago, and I have the urge to express my dissapointment. Obvious spoilers.
Note, this is my personal opinion, and I don't want to add "imo" everytime, so I'll say it here.

I loved Act 2. Absolutely loved it. It was realistic and mature. It did not have a "villain". The closest maybe was Sister  Petrice, but even then she wasn't completely unreasonable. The Qunari were not demonized as I initially feared they would be. The Arishok was an awesome character (and great voice). The writing was excellent, showing how the fanaticism of a few can lead to disaster, inspite the efforts of moderates like the Viscount (who can also be accused of weakness). It added nuance to the Qunari treatment of mages and it did have something to say about alienage elves (and how they'd rather join the Qunari).  

It had conspiracy, and maturity. Awesome soundtrack that got me in the mood. In short, it was great.
If the game was marketed as Hawke's "rise to power", it was Act 2.

Then Act 3 happened and it all came crashing down. At the beginning of Act 3, I was very hyped. It started off well. The mage / Templar conflict was being built up from the very beginning. And since Act 2 was handled so maturely, I expected the same from Act 3. Nope. 

The problem with Act 3, mainly, is that all the maturity and even humanity were sucked from it. I don't know if they were aiming for dark, but they hit ridiculous. Everyone is essentially mad. We have Orsino somehow knowing how to become a harvester. And Merredith being controlled by pure lyrium. Instantly, all the humanity and maturity is sucked out of it. 

I side with mages expecting to fight Templars, and who do I fight the most? Demons and insane mages.

And there's the problem. DA2 was not supposed to be about fighting an "acient inexplicable evil that wants to destroy everything". It was supposed to be about human conflicts. And it was, until it was revealed that Meredith was being driven insane all along. That might make her a tragic character, but it renders the whole conflict banal. That it all started because Meredith was influenced by..."pure lyrium"? And why too many demons? I get it, mages under stress become abominations, but too much is dehumanizing the whole conflict. It's adding non-human elements to what should have been a very complex human issue.

The Qunari in act 2 were not like this. They were not under any exterior influence. And they tried to be patient and to search for their relic, and they were provoked by fanatics and they reacted. It was "human" and realistic. Whatever you might think of the Arishok and the Qun, he was not completely unreasonable. He also has a point (like when the two elves say why they murdered a guardsmen). In Act 3, it all ends up being exterior influence of pure lyrium, demons and insanity everwhere.

The end boss fight in Act 3 was ridiculous, with animated statues (with flamethrowers?), corrupt swords a la soul edge, red eyes...etc. It felt like a cartoon. With unnecessary eye candy cameos.  In Act 2, while the duel with the Arishok might not have been the best, it was certainly better than this debacle.

Then you have the extremely underwhelming companion speeches at the end, when compared to those of Origins. The one in Origins still moves me. In DA2, nada. You practically had no soundtrack at all, when compared to that of Act 2 (Qunari on the Rise especially). DA:O ended well, with also a heartwrenching goodbye from companions. In DA2, nada. To add insult to injury, there is not even an epic soundtrack at the credits.

What happened? Did Act 3 have a different writing team? How did it go from complex and mature, to comic book like banality? I feel it was rushed.

In all honesty, DA2 should have ended with Act 2. That was the climax of the game. Then it just goes downhill painfully imo.

Did anyone else feel the same?

EDIT: to add an important issue that was discussed throughout the thread, but which I did not mention in the op.
My main problem, which results in this lack of humanity, is the lack of character development, specifically Meredith and Orsino. Both could have been interesting characters, but we do not see them progress and evolve as characters. At best, we learn about Meredeth's policies, but we do not know who she is as a person and how she is changing. There are some hints at the very end, but a 5 minute character display at the very end does not constitute development  and progression imo. Orsino almost gets nothing and his face shows up when we start the game. 

To compare both with the Arishok. We talk with him several times. And we see his attitude change, from patient and stoic, to irritated, to losing his patience. And for reasons that we see, and we witness how he reacts to them. The Arishok had enough character development to give the impression that he's a real person with "human" motivations. There was no "gotcha" moments with him. When fighting him, I felt like I was fighting a worthy and respectable adversary and I wished we had the option to spare him. I *felt* something.

But when fighting Meredith and Orsino, I felt nothing except killing two maniacs, who had almost no character progression. I did not feel I was really fighting Meredith and Orsino, but rather two monsters. It's a waste of potential.

Which is why I think that the whole idol thing should have been scrapped, especially since we know nothing of it, and focus on Meredith as a human instead and how and why she becomes more and more paranoid. And since the conflict is not solely about Templars, also have the paralell character development of Orsino, struggling to remain a moderate but losing his patience more and more, for instance, as well as dabbling in dangerous magic.
But if the idol was really necessary, then at least explain a bit what it's supposed to be. Because the nothing we got vis a vis the idol does not substitute for the virtual absence of the character development of Meredith.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Meredith wasn't being driven insane all along. For years, she was clearly normal but decidedly oppressive, but it just got worse until (at some point) she somehow got wind of the lyrium idol. It's not that it was pure lyrium that drove her insane. There's some sort of malevolent magic imbued in the idol, What happened to her wasn't just the typical take a hit of lyrium and get a little funny in the head. The idol also influenced Bartrand, driving him to murder, and even the small shard of it seemed to make Varric go a little loopy.

Once Meredith's obsession with blood mages led her to create that sword, then she started seeing evil everywhere - like it magnified her obsessions. It's almost like Anders and Justice - Justice's presence drives the merged Anders to take an increasingly militant, hardline stance over the years (only it's a combination of Anders' native anger and Justice's penchant for, well, Justice without pity or mercy, etc.). Orsino finally snapped after seeing his people slaughtered. The man was a First Enchanter - he had access to all kinds of knowledge, probably even research on blood magic.

As far as the statues go, again, the lyrium idol was from that primordial thaig and was clearly filled with some sort of unusual magic. Is it any surprise that the sword formed from it might have the power to bring statues to life a la golems? It was some sort of dwarven artifact or possibly something that predated them

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 mars 2011 - 09:55 .

[Loc'n'lol]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The man was a First Enchanter - he had access to all kinds of knowledge, probably even research on blood magic.

Not probably, he was supporting Quentin's researches in necromancy, and not just out of fear for the templars and public opinion, his letter suggests he had a real interest in it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Once Meredith's obsession with blood mages led her to create that sword, then she started seeing evil everything.

She rejected the Tranquil solution before. Yes, she was already represssive. But she snapped because of the idol. Whatever the idol is, your post is essentially "magic did it". That's my point. All the humanity and maturity is removed, replaced by outside non-human intereference.

Why not make Meredith get more paranoid on her own without any outside interefence? She certainly has reason to, and if not, give her reason.
The Arishok got angry and lost patience after being insulted and assaulted several times and that was "human". Here? "magic did it".

As far as the statues go, again, the lyrium idol was from that primordial thaig and was clearly filled with some sort of unusual magic. Is it any surprise that the sword formed from it might have the power to bring statues to life a la golems? It was some sort of dwarven artifact or possibly something that predated them

It's irrelevent how it happened. With "magic did it", I can say that bunnies are the real overlords of the darkspawn. That's not the point. The point is, it's ridiculous.

I was expecting to fight real people, not this. It's like I was wacthing a bad cartoon. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 10:01 .

[Brockololly]

Pretty much agree.

I really liked Act 2 and how even at the end it seemed to set the stage for ACt 3 with Meredith and Orsino (although, I think they should have had a larger role even earlier on).

Really, Act 3 just seemed rushed. And that was what made it so disappointing. I think its easily the shortest Act in the game, and yet it should be the most important, as the events there seem to change all of Thedas.

And part of the problem is that Meredith and Orsino aren't really introduced until the end of Act 2 then skip ahead 3 years to Act 3. Add in how short Act 3 is, and you never get a good grasp of who Orsino and Meredith are as fleshed out characters and not just stand ins for opposing ideologies.

And the conclusion was just bizarre- I'm fine with having some crazy magic stuff go down, provided it sort of makes sense within the setting. The problem with Orsino was that just came out of no where- he was a pretty reasonable guy for the most part, but when you find him going all blood mage he became a cackling moron. Maybe thats the point, but it just made every mage seem entirely unsympathetic- even moreso than they had already been presented. It would have been far more interesting and thought provoking if when cornered, Orsino didn't turn into Boss Monnster Harvester but you simply had the choice to strike him down or not- sort of how you have that choice with the fleeing mages trying to escape if you side with the Templars.


And Meredith going bonkers because of the evil sword? Again, it excuses her actions as just the fault of the lyrium idol. Now, if we knew more about what the idol actually was beyond "It makes you CrAzY!" maybe that would have at least held more weight. Instead it came across as bizarre and ripped out of some anime- I mean, what the hell was that thing? Why were the statues coming alive? That sort of stuff isn't even remotely foreshadowed. The Meredith and Orsino fight were seemingly tossed in to fill the Final Boss Fight quota or something and at least how they were presented, cheapened what was going on.


With respect to the lyrium idol thing, the problem was that it was absolutely never explained- not even some sort of possible explanation or competing explanations, like the possible divinity/magic of the Urn of Sacred Ashes. WIth the Sacred Ashes, you knew what was going on in game with those, in the lore, but it was never made clear whether they were actually divine or just magical. But you could make up your own mind. With the lyrium idol thing, we have no clue what the hell it is- we're never given any even possible explanations and it seemed tossed in at the end with Meredith out of the blue. It made no sense at all, seemingly so the ending could just be some big crazy Michael Bay-fest of craziness.

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 mars 2011 - 10:06 .

[MKDAWUSS]

I thought Act III was awfully cartoony and campy for a game that was supposed to be serious and deep. The entire story is set up around plot requirements, making everything feel forced, and it's often littered with cop-outs.

The entire Qunari storyline had so much potential, and could have easily fit any Chantry schism, as you could see that the Qunari were picking up outside followers. I liked the interracial interactions regarding the Qunari (Seamus, the renegade elves) and the Dalish (that Dalish human). That was a lot more compelling than everybody behaving all bizarre and losing all sense of maturity and rationality given their backstory.

[azarhal]

It was evident by middle of Act 2 how it was going to end. Or was I the only one who realized that Meredith bought the idol, that Orsino was "encouraging" blood magic studies or that Anders/Justice was crazy?

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Once Meredith's obsession with blood mages led her to create that sword, then she started seeing evil everything.

She rejected the Tranquil solution before. Yes, she was already represssive. But she snapped because of the idol. Whatever the idol is, your post is essentially "magic did it". That's my point. All the humanity and maturity is removed, replaced by outside non-human intereference.

Why not make Meredith get more paranoid on her own without any outside interefence? She certainly has reason to, and if not, give her reason.
The Arishok got angry and lost patience after being insulted and assaulted several times and that was "human". Here? "magic did it".

As far as the statues go, again, the lyrium idol was from that primordial thaig and was clearly filled with some sort of unusual magic. Is it any surprise that the sword formed from it might have the power to bring statues to life a la golems? It was some sort of dwarven artifact or possibly something that predated them

It's irrelevent how it happened. With "magic did it", I can say that bunnies are the real overlords of the darkspawn. That's not the point. The point is, it's ridiculous.

I was expecting to fight real people, not this. It's like I was wacthing a bad cartoon. 

Oops, that should have been everywhere, not everything - grr, you quoted me before I fixed that. Like I was saying, Meredith was already pretty tough on mages, but she obviously didn't have that sword all along. When she finally got it, it simply magnified her obsession and made it worse to the point of her becoming completely irrational. As for you saying it's irrelevant how it happened, I disagree. The idol proved that it was a dangerous, malevolent force all along, and I don't think it's particularly ridiculous, given where it was found. We'll just have to disagree about it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...
And part of the problem is that Meredith and Orsino aren't really introduced until the end of Act 2 then skip ahead 3 years to Act 3. Add in how short Act 3 is, and you never get a good grasp of who Orsino and Meredith are as fleshed out characters and not just stand ins for opposing ideologies.

Yes exactly. Maybe that's why they felt they needed to resort to "magic did it" and "well cause he's a bit crazy".  Because developping the characters was too much work.

They could have easily developped the characters a lot more and give them reasons to do what they did. Meredith has reasons, whether justifiable or not, to become more and more repressive. Why reduce it to "unknown lyrium thing that we know nothing about"?  And Orino's transformation into a harvester just came out of nowhere. It even started killing its own allies. The situation was not that bad as to resort to this madness. 

It's like saying that if we didn't go to the deep roads, all of htis might not have happened. Reducing a complex human issue to essentially an accident.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Oops, that should have been everywhere, not everything - grr, you quoted me before I fixed that. Like I was saying, Meredith was already pretty tough on mages, but she obviously didn't have that sword all along. When she finally got it, it simply magnified her obsession and made it worse to the point of her becoming completely irrational.

I understand that. Why have the idol come in?
Why not invest in her character more and give her reasons to become irrational? That would have been more complex and human, than she just went mad because of the idol.

She was repressive before (it was limited, she rejected the tranquil solution), but she got out of hand and caused the whole thing when she got the idol.

As for you saying it's irrelevant how it happened, I disagree. The idol proved that it was a dangerous, malevolent force all along, and I don't think it's particularly ridiculous, given where it was found. We'll just have to disagree about it.

But we know nothing about it, that's the point. What is it? What purpose does it serve?
Why should I care about a story where something I know nothing about ends up eclypsing all the complexity and humanity of a question I care about?

I'd much rather have a story showign that humans are dangerous. Than have a copt out, with strange ancient relics we know nothing about being dangerous.

Of course it's all subjective and depends on our personal opinions. If you have no problem with this, good on you.
I felt that what should have been a complex and human issue was banalised and dehumanized.

[Jeeriggs]

Honestly, they took the "it's a story being told" premise a bit too far in act 3. To me, Varric was clearly exaggerating on the fight as a whole, just as I believe most of the game was exaggerated in fighting dozens upon dozens of people with a group of four, having them blow apart from certain skills, yada yada, etc.

The gameplay was never really meant to be realistic - though they did go way overboard in the final battle.

[Camilladilla]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's irrelevent how it happened. With "magic did it", I can say that bunnies are the real overlords of the darkspawn. That's not the point. The point is, it's ridiculous.

I was expecting to fight real people, not this. It's like I was wacthing a bad cartoon. 

I really liked the inclusion of the statues because it just added another layer onto the Meredith fight. The slave statues are the first things you see when you sail into Kirkwall. If you remember a certain Cullen conversation in... Act 2? When he's speaking about the glory of the templars of the days of old, you get a very close shot of those statues. Meredith using her magic to even further pervert what the templars once represented struck a chord for me. 

[Boss Fog]

I'd much rather have a story showign that humans are dangerous. Than have a copt out, with strange ancient relics we know nothing about being dangerous.
 

TBH I don't think we're SUPPOSED to know what the idol is.  We get hints during Varric's mission to the haunted mansion and when Meredith uses it to cause statues to come alive.  The way I see it is this: Varric's bro couldn't handle the idol's energy which is why he went completely insane without any sense at all.

Meredith on the other hand is a Knight Commander and therefore she is more than likely addicted to lyrium in the first place so she just naturally knows how to harness the idol's power, maybe she even practiced with it; if she was growing paranoid about blood mages (and with good reason) why wouldn't she resort to some form of incredible power to help her?

[ZeroDotZero]

Act 3 was great until you were forced to kill both Meredith and Orsino. I would have been pleased with finding out about Meredith/Orsino's insanity from the idol/hand in your mother's death, and making a choice about their fates.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TelvanniWarlord wrote...
if she was growing paranoid about blood mages (and with good reason) why wouldn't she resort to some form of incredible power to help her?

An evolution we don't see because there is pratically 0 character development when it comes to Orsino and Meredith.

Meredith was obviously being controlled by the idol, thus rendering character development moot. With Anders, it's different. Justice is a sentient being that we know about (though Justice was not handled well in DA2, I thought). here, just unknown magical item.

Meredith was not that paranoid before she acquired the thing. She rejected the Tranquil solution. She only became that irrational  when she acquired the idol. Something that dehumanizes the whole thing. Why not have actual character development, showing the understandable evolution of Meredith from a relunctant enforcer, to an irrational paranoid tyrant? Much more itneresting than "well, that idol thing made her go mad". 

Again, if they are not even bothering to explain what the idol is, why should I care about it, when the focus should have been on the humanity of the conflict?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[Cuthlan]

ZeroDotZero wrote...

Act 3 was great until you were forced to kill both Meredith and Orsino. I would have been pleased with finding out about Meredith/Orsino's insanity from the idol/hand in your mother's death, and making a choice about their fates.

I agree. I really liked Act 3 as it felt like I was finally accomplishing something in my campaign against the Circle.

But I was really disappointed when I had to fight Orsino... mostly disappointed in him in-character, but still disappointed overall.

And I do wish that Meredith had something else behind her increasing intolerance for magic... something deeper, like something happened to her between acts that she blamed on a mage or something.

[JamieCOTC]

I have to agree. The end boss fights were ridiculous. BW made this dark. medieval political thriller and then shoehorned idiotic boss fights into it in the end. At one point, I was hoping the game would give me the option to just kill Meridith and except the responsibility for it. A very different kind of ultimate sacrifice.

[Boss Fog]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Again, if they are not even bothering to explain what the idol is, why should I care about it, when the focus should have been on the humanity of the conflict?

Bioware obviously doesn't want us to know what the idol is YET; if they wanted us to know, they'd have a codex entry.  The idol will more than likely be brought up in DA3 and may even contain some sort of relevance to the story of Thedas as a whole.

I'm also not entirely convinced she was being "controlled" by the idol.  If she were being controlled by some sort of magical force, why would she be having fits of mid life crysis in the middle of the fight?  She still spoke eloquently and well enough she was just incredibly angry.  She had the reasoning to do what she wanted all along (Anders).
And why would she pray to the Maker every time she readies an attack?  I don't see how being influenced by power is dehumanizing someone especially when they're attuned already to that sort of power.  

I'm going to go ahead and take a guess and say you were expecting her to be more like Loghain, which is fine.  Loghain is an amazing character, no doubt but he was pretty much the only adversary in DA:O so they had plenty of time to develop him.  In DA2, our adversaries are split between Meredith and Orsino, and to be honest... I was more pissed about Orsino's transformation than anything else.  I don't care that he turned into a harvester, what I care about is the fact that my group just got done destroying every wave of templars that came into the place and he just snaps and turns on us?  Biggest wtf moment for me next to Anders' red beam in the sky.

Modifié par TelvanniWarlord, 14 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[Lauretha_L]

Azarhal - that doesn't mean it was good. I also suspected Orsino beforehand of being "O.", Anders of losing it (and btw - you may want to watch this -- mega spoiler alert! -- ) and the idol of provoking open war -- but that just means it was predictable. And, anyway, one thing is having a scientific interest in research, another altogether of doing it yourself -- I believe Orsino didn't have to necessarily know the gory details (the mass-murderer of innocents part), he merely provided literature on necromancy and wanted to hear about the results. The latter may have been his attempt at controlling the situation, as we know he feared actually asking templar help in anything because it would give Meredith more ammunition against mages. And that's a fact, not only something he states in the last dialogue if you side with the templars (though he does) - he has you investigating how desperate his mages are because he is afraid to ask templars.
Anyways, he may have known the details on Quentin or he may have not known but, arguably, either makes him a better person than Anders in the end -- because he did read the research material (and pronounced it "evil" and didn't touch it right until the final straw) but he didn't kill anybody to get what could have been a last resort evil-y advantage over the templars. Sounds familiar?
Anyway, even if we agreed on Orsino being evil there is no evidence in the game of him being an idiot or a weak man - quite to the contrary. So, while I could see the templar ending as actually happening, the ending stops having *any* sense if you side with mages. Mr Gaider answered elsewhere on the forums that not seeing any not-bat*** crazy mages around doing the final battle was due to engine limitation ("we could only get that many people in a scene"), and we can assume that they just didn't have time/didn't think it worthwile to put more good/neutral mages in the game (there are a few -- even one of the Starkhaven mages manages to run away, not turn bad, write to you with thanks and propose doing some quests for her friends -- and the disgrace templar quest has been so far my *favourite* in the entire game!). None of that explains why you have to fight through waves of mages and abominations -- but even if you say "they were pushed to the edge and cracked" that does not, in any way, explain what Orsino does! Nor the moment he does it! I agree with what other people said - there were hundreds better ways to handle that scene.
I also fully agree with knight of Phoenix in that I felt both characters - Orsino and Meredith - were cheapened in the end and that I would much prefer it if the causes remained much more ordinary -- you don't need almighty evil artefacts from the past to make people go crazy fanatics and start burning witches; look at the real life religions if you need any evidence. And if the devs wanted to show Orsino as evil it could have been done much more better to show him as doing something similar to, figuratively speaking, Anders. Though not along the same lines that would be repetitive.

Btw, am I the only one who wondered in game whether Quentin was named this way as a tribute (...sort of xD) to the brilliant madness of Mr. Tarantino? ^^"

Modifié par Kelenthial, 14 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

As for you saying it's irrelevant how it happened, I disagree. The idol proved that it was a dangerous, malevolent force all along, and I don't think it's particularly ridiculous, given where it was found. We'll just have to disagree about it.

But we know nothing about it, that's the point. What is it? What purpose does it serve?
Why should I care about a story where something I know nothing about ends up eclypsing all the complexity and humanity of a question I care about?

I'd much rather have a story showign that humans are dangerous. Than have a copt out, with strange ancient relics we know nothing about being dangerous.

Of course it's all subjective and depends on our personal opinions. If you have no problem with this, good on you.
I felt that what should have been a complex and human issue was banalised and dehumanized.

Well, I think it did show that humans are dangerous, especially when subjected to foreign influences. Each side's actions increased hostilities and suspicion as time passed until both factions became dangerous to themselves and everyone else - so much so that reconciliation wasn't going to happen, especially with the idol's influence functioning as a tipping point. *shrug*

Back to the idol, let's discuss that. If you recall, Nathaniel was down in the Deep Roads trying to retrace the footsteps of Hawke's expedition. He specifically says during your conversation that the Wardens didn't want to contact Hawke because they thought it might be dangerous (or something to that effect). I suspect that it's because the Wardens knew about this lyrium idol and what it could do to people. They were probably extremely concerned about Hawke having been corrupted by its influence. The Wardens know a lot of things that they don't tell other people, such as the locations of the Old Gods for one thing (from the DA books).

Now that I think about it, there was that early meeting with Carver and the Wardens during the qunari takeover. Carver said he and his group had been in Kirkwall for something like five days (didn't bother to contact his dear sister however). They never made it clear what their mission was then, but perhaps that too involved searching for the idol, predating Nathaniel's trip to the Deep Roads. As far as the animated statues go, Caridin created golems, and I don't see why it isn't possible for there to be some sort of ancient magic predating "modern" (if you will) golems that could possibly create automata of some sort. I get that you don't approve of the approach, but I think this idol's presence was not just an easy out. Even the disappearance of the Warden and the Champion might be related to the artifact or similar items, but who knows - pure speculation on my part.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Augtastic]

I agree completely with the op.

The worst part about Act 3 was that it wasn't about Mages vs Templars, it was demons vs everyone else.  My first run through I sided with mages on the premise of "don't judge and punish us all by the actions of a few" and "we're not all evil blood mages," and within 30 seconds of the final battle, what do you fight?  A crap ton of blood mages and demons.  I don't remember exactly, but I think there's maybe three times in the push for the Gallows that you actually fight non-blood mages.  It made it seem like you're supposed to side with the Templars, since it turns out that they were right in suspecting corruption.

To me, it seemed like a ridiculous cop out that somehow, everyone with a mage staff became a blood mage instantly.  Everything on the way to the gallows became dehumanized by the fact that you're not killing a bunch of potentially innocent mages who just got condemned to death by a fanatical Templar, you're killing demons and blood mages just like you've been doing pretty much the entire game.  Ho-hum, more generic enemies to kill, there's certainly no depth in this fight.


Even at the end, assuming you side with the mages, Orsino essentially says one of the most cliche things I've ever heard in a story: "They think we're blood mages?  I'll show them... by proving them right and using blood magic, mwahahaha."  I literally had a wtf moment when that happened, it was just a pathetic "plot twist."  I expected something better than that.

Modifié par Augtastic, 14 mars 2011 - 10:59 .

[Red Templar]

I definitely think that act 2 was the stronger act, but I wouldn't say that act 3 was so terrible either. Ander turning terrorist and the intentionally difficult and murky choice that you have to make were very memorable. Not that your actual choice makes much difference, but still memorable bits of storytelling.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TelvanniWarlord wrote...
Bioware obviously doesn't want us to know what the idol is YET; if they wanted us to know, they'd have a codex entry.  The idol will more than likely be brought up in DA3 and may even contain some sort of relevance to the story of Thedas as a whole.

Assumptions. And even if they did want to explain what it is, they should have done it in the game, since they obviously did not bother to have any character development for Meredith and Orsino.

Had they explained  during the game, it might not have been as bad.

 I don't see how being influenced by power is dehumanizing someone especially when they're attuned already to that sort of power. 

It's exactly like demon possession. It twists thoughts. Whatever the extent of the control the idol had on Meredith, it was unnecessary and a poor substitute to actual character development, especially since we know nothing of what this thing is supposed to be.

The problem started after Act 2, when she acquired the idol. Before, she was bad but tolerable.
Instead of making her be controlled or influenced by something we know nothing about, write character development and make us see why she'd become like this. Much more interesting, human and mature than this.

I'm going to go ahead and take a guess and say you were expecting her to be more like Loghain, which is fine.  Loghain is an amazing character, no doubt but he was pretty much the only adversary in DA:O so they had plenty of time to develop him.

You're right. That's what I am expecting. An actual character. Love him or hate him, he is a deep character. Here, there is 0 character development with Orsino and Meredith. And the idol that we know nothing about is a poor substitute.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 mars 2011 - 11:11 .

[Arrtis]

Did anyone find out anything about it?
THe idol?
Or what?

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Well, I think it did show that humans are dangerous, especially when subjected to foreign influences. Each side's actions increased hostilities and suspicion as time passed until both factions became dangerous to themselves and everyone else - so much so that reconciliation wasn't going to happen, especially with the idol's influence functioning as a tipping point. *shrug*

Remove outside influence, and we have a real human complex story. aka, Act 2.
For me, that's much more interesting.

Back to the idol, let's discuss that.

Since we know nothing about it, there is nothing to discuss except pointless speculation that doesn't make the story anymore interesting.

We have no idea that Nate was going after the idol, or if he even knew about it. If the idol was supposed to be that interesting and crucial, at least put hints in there. What they had is not a subistitue for 0 character development.

And it's not really the point of the thread.

As far as the animated statues go, Caridin created golems, and I don't see why it isn't possible for there to be some sort of ancient magic predating "modern" (if you will) golems that could possibly create automata of some sort. I get that you don't approve of the approach, but I think this idol's presence was not just an easy out. Even the disappearance of the Warden and the Champion might be related to the artifact or similar items, but who knows - pure speculation on my part.

You are not understanding me. It's not how it happened that I am taking issues with. With magic, I can make pigs fly. That's not the point. The point is, I thought it looked ridiculous, and inhuman, as if it was ripped from a bad cartoon show.

With Caridin and the golems, it's explained and it's not some nefarious artifact we know nothing about. It's technology, created and used by sentient beings.