238 réponses à ce sujet

[Kohaku]

I agree with KoP and Brockololly. I was literally left with my jaw hanging open through the entire last battle. I just didn't know what to make of it. To make matters worse it just seemed like one big MMO raid going on.

I had no idea Orsino was going to jump into blood magic so quickly. It's not my game or company and I can't tell them what to do with their game series. However, I thought the use of blood magic being the cause of everything was just lame. I was under the impression blood magic was a rarity. Here, everyone does it. It's just as bad as lyrium.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 14 mars 2011 - 11:12 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

I thought it was funny that I could deceive a templar into believing his comrade was doing bad stuff.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

I think it might have something to do with magic that predates even the Arthalan Elves, or maybe a precursor race of spirits/demons.

[screamin_jesus]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I have to agree. The end boss fights were ridiculous. BW made this dark. medieval political thriller and then shoehorned idiotic boss fights into it in the end. At one point, I was hoping the game would give me the option to just kill Meridith and except the responsibility for it. A very different kind of ultimate sacrifice.

Guess we should have expected this after fighting the terminator on ME2.

BIOWARE PLEASE STOP TRYING TO MAKE BOSS FIGHTS FOR THE SAKE OF BOSS FIGHTS!

[Myrmedus]

I agree. I won't go into too much on this but I felt it was a big mistake having you kill both Orsino and Meredith because the whole crux of the conflict was meant to be both sides having a point - either character you killed you would feel regret over. They succeeded in this with the Arishok - at least for me as I felt so bad after the duel, a sense of necessity but regret - but when you consider Orsino and Meredith there's no regret there for me they both needed to be put down. When you consider that both of these characters are the respective heads of their orders, it makes me feel like both orders are just as bad as each other.

No longer was it about points of view because I invariably regret my decision each time; when I side with the Mages I regret it when Orsino goes Harvester-mode as it feels like he's just proven the Templars right, and if I side with Meredith I regret it since she's loopy. It makes the choice feel pointless.

Having said that the actual Meredith battle I loved.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 14 mars 2011 - 11:38 .

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You are not understanding me. It's not how it happened that I am taking issues with. With magic, I can make pigs fly. That's not the point. The point is, I thought it looked ridiculous, and inhuman, as if it was ripped from a bad cartoon show.

With Caridin and the golems, it's explained and it's not some nefarious artifact we know nothing about. It's technology, created and used by sentient beings.

No, I get that you feel it took away from the essential human conflict. However, I was just looking at  Meredith's transformation in Act 3 and the idol from a story standpoint, and I chose to explain what I saw that made me think that this surprise wsn't straight of of left field. For you, it cheapened things; for me, it didn't.

Regarding Caridin and the golems, the Anvil of the Void that he created was a magical artifact. Even if you choose to destroy it, the dwarves try to experiment with it and creating new golems (which all goes badly as I recall). The Anvil was an equally dangerous magical artifact, if not quite so nefarious as this idol was. From the DA wiki:

Dwarves built golems, creatures of hewn stone or sheets of metal animated with a spark of lyrium. A magical, not mechanical, process animates the golem, making it more of a living “iron/stone creature.

and

Caridin built the magical Anvil of the Void specifically for the process of building golems. Because he could not create new life, he had to use dwarven volunteers and turn them into golems. The process involves dressing the volunteer in armor the size of the golem, then pouring molten lyrium through the eye holes, mouth hole, and joints of the armor. Before it cools, the armor is hammered and shaped to perfection. Enchanted control rods were used to turn the golems into perfectly obedient soldiers, at the cost of their free will.


Again, I do get what you're saying. I was just responding with my reasoning and why I am okay with what  happened instead of feeling that it cheapened things like you did.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 14 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Regarding Caridin and the golems, the Anvil of the Void that he created was a magical artifact. Even if you choose to destroy it, the dwarves try to experiment with it and creating new golems (which all goes badly as I recall). The Anvil was an equally dangerous magical artifact, if not quite so nefarious as this idol was. From the DA wiki:

It was a magical artifact that was created, for a specific purpose, by a people we know about, in circumstances that we read about. The anvil is a means to portray what people are willing to do to survive. It had a purpose in the story, with a choice that we have to make (vs none in DA2). That's first. Second, it did not take anything away from the humanity of the issue.  The anvil did not control people, or influence them. Branka was hearing the voices of people that were golomised, but that's different. She was being herself, she was always obsessed with the anvil. Thirdly, it was not the main thing in the story, or even in the Orzammar quest. It did not substitute for character development.
The anvil is not dangerous, it's how people use it. Huge difference.

Here we have an artifact we know nothing about, that does things we do not understand. And that seemingly either controls people, or influences them to the point of madness, taking away their humanity. And that was supposed to act as a substitute for the character development that Meredith and Orsino did not get?

Had they explained what this idol is, even a little bit, and show us how it would fit in the larger scheme of things, I might be able to tolerate it, if it's interesting. But we have nothing and we have no guarantees that they will ever explain it. And even if they explain it later, the damage is already done. They had no character development, and postponed the explanation till after the game.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 12:06 .

[Thomas9321]

I can see where your coming from, and I agree with EVERYTHING you say about Act 2 (I really liked the way mutual respect between Hawke and the Arishok developed), I think you're too harsh on Act 3.

I agree that the final battle at the Gallows had too many demons running around and not enough Templars, and that the final boss fight was a little meh (Meredith and her statues are not a challenge, they can just be overwhelmed with brute force, you don't have to think tactically at all) it was still very good. I also think that the point of a Act 3 was to go off the rails a little bit, with everything taken to the extreme. Also, I think the human conflict is still there, there's just a lot of magic flying around.

As regards to Meredith, she was an opressive tyrant who was slowly going mad right from when you arrive in Kirkwall, all the idol did was amplify what was already there.

Ultimately I think this is Bioware's most mature plot yet, because it's not about ancient evil or adventuring, it's about freedom and it seems to ask "At what point is freedom not worth the price?" That said, I can absolutely understand your arguments here.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thomas9321 wrote...
As regards to Meredith, she was an opressive tyrant who was slowly going mad right from when you arrive in Kirkwall, all the idol did was amplify what was already there.

She only really started at the end of act 2, in the 3 years before Act 3. That's when **** hit the fan. And that's after she acquired the artifact. Not saying that Meredith wouldn't have gone more oppressive eventually, and that's exactly what I wanted to see. But without some idol that we know nothing about. Make it more human, with actual character development.

When you say DA2 had no ancient evil, the idol right now is starting to feel that way. An inexplicable force that turns people crazy. I wouldn't mind that much if it was at least explained a bit. But we had nothing.

I am probably being a bit too harsh on Act 3, I did like it up until the very end, with Orsino and Meredith turning out to be crazy. But that just renders the whole thing banal, in retrospect.

[Nathan Redgrave]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I just finished the game a few minutes ago, and I have the urge to express my dissapointment. Obvious spoilers.
Note, this is my personal opinion, and I don't want to add "imo" everytime, so I'll say it here.

I loved Act 2. Absolutely loved it. It was realistic and mature. It did not have a "villain". The closest maybe was Sister  Petrice, but even then she wasn't completely unreasonable. The Qunari were not demonized as I initially feared they would be. The Arishok was an awesome character (and great voice). The writing was excellent, showing how the fanaticism of a few can lead to disaster, inspite the efforts of moderates like the Viscount (who can also be accused of weakness). It added nuance to the Qunari treatment of mages and it did have something to say about alienage elves (and how they'd rather join the Qunari).  

It had conspiracy, and maturity. Awesome soundtrack that got me in the mood. In short, it was great.
If the game was marketed as Hawke's "rise to power", it was Act 2.

Then Act 3 happened and it all came crashing down. At the beginning of Act 3, I was very hyped. It started off well. The mage / Templar conflict was being built up from the very beginning. And since Act 2 was handled so maturely, I expected the same from Act 3. Nope. 

The problem with Act 3, mainly, is that all the maturity and even humanity were sucked from it. I don't know if they were aiming for dark, but they hit ridiculous. Everyone is essentially mad. We have Orsino somehow knowing how to become a harvester. And Merredith being controlled by pure lyrium. Instantly, all the humanity and maturity is sucked out of it. 

So... the entire act sucks because of the last five minutes?

Incidentally, "controlled" is the wrong word. You can tell from her personality that the lyrium idol only twisted her innate fears and views, and she was known as being too harsh even before the Deep Roads expedition brought the idol into play. That an idol pushed her overblown methods to even greater heights, and that one man took it upon himself to fire the "shot heard 'round the world" to get things moving, were just outside influences that blew up an already-serious situation.

It was mostly just to provide a massive and epic final boss, granted, but turning both sides' leaders into ravenous beasts in the end was sort of a cool touch (if not executed as well as could have been). It strikes me as a good emphasis of the point that both sides were ultimately wrong.

That you spent more time fighting demons than Templars when you sided with the mages, and that siding with the Templars hits you with multiple opportunities to save unpossessed mages, also emphasizes that the side you chose wasn't all-the-way in the right.

[Thomas9321]

I actually agree with you about Orsino, when I saw that I just went "What the hell?! That's pointless!" I'm going to call alternate charcter interpretation on Meredith, from my point of view, she was a tyrant from the very beginning.

I wouldn't call the Lyrium idol an ancient evil - I'd call it a Chekov's Gun, one that I thought was handled well. I'd like to point out that if they hadn't used the idol like they had many of use would be on here going "What was the point of that whole deep roads thing?!"

[Caladors]

I agree to a degree.
See going again we here about the knight commander and how she is always a little on edge to say the least however I think the problem is that we didn't see her.
We just go well she has been a **** all along...

See if we had have at least seen bits and pieces of her.
You don't have to interact with her personally I mean how many times have you heard in story telling mean wile, wile the adventurers did this the villain did this...
But just let us see Meredith and let us see her slowly slip rather than hiding her away.
Chantry knows if I had seen much of what I saw in act three that I did in act one I would have been well Meredith does have teeth down there but hey she is right.

It would have been better that way.
In my opinion.

But looking at what has been said come on people.
Everyone has to admit despite the circumstances that lead to that fight the Meredith fight was bad ass.

I think what was needed was an attack of exposition guy.
I mean come on how cool would it be if you found out that Meredith already slightly crazy was the conduit for an old god and that idol was just a taste of it's power.
Maybe then the darkspawn seem like the preferred flavour.

Say we were told about how thin the veil is, Meredith takes this idol know what it is finds out that it needs blood magic to awaken the old gods.
She presses harder the magi.
Maybe the old god demon whatever needs tranquil magi?
Look this is just off the top of my head.

The whole idol thing being to blame is a bit hard for us to swallow because at the gallows we knew she wasn't a great gal that you should take home to meet mum.
The problem everyone has is the lack of development like if there was some sort of inkling as to what happened you may not have been WTF.
You would have been damn idol, how come I couldn't stop X and Y grr or of coarse she has it the crazy lady trying to stop all the magic users.

[Stalky24]

DA2 has three main plots:

- Expedition to Deep Roads and finding powerful artifact that drives people crazy

- Qunari decided to force Qun, entering into open conflict with Kirkwall

- Conflict between mages and templars.

My problem is, that all have been very underdeveloped.
Game could focus on one of those and make it deep and epic.

I mean, if there was big Templar/Mage conflict right from start and you would
be either helping one of the sides or trying to solve the mess, it would give
much better impression then doing chores for random people 90% of game.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

I agree with KoP and Brockololly. I was literally left with my jaw hanging open through the entire last battle. I just didn't know what to make of it. To make matters worse it just seemed like one big MMO raid going on.

I had no idea Orsino was going to jump into blood magic so quickly. It's not my game or company and I can't tell them what to do with their game series. However, I thought the use of blood magic being the cause of everything was just lame. I was under the impression blood magic was a rarity. Here, everyone does it. It's just as bad as lyrium.

Any mage can learn blood magic whenever they please. Demons come to them willingly, and it's demons that teach blood magic. Hell, in DA2 we see some mages just pop straight into "abomination" status the moment they're too desperate to do anything else. Jowan was able to "dabble" in blood magic within the confines of the Circle tower.

Only reason blood magic is "rare" is because it's actively discouraged by all the powers that be--but too heavy-handed "discouragement" has the ironic effect of encouraging it, which is why it's so common around Kirkwall.

(Mind, Hawke also seems to have the luck of Conan Edogawa in that all of the city's problems just drop into his lap, so it's unlikely that blood magic is strictly-speaking, "common." Just not as uncommon as elsewhere.)

[Nathan Redgrave]

Stalky24 wrote...

DA2 has three main plots:

- Expedition to Deep Roads and finding powerful artifact that drives people crazy

- Qunari decided to force Qun, entering into open conflict with Kirkwall

- Conflict between mages and templars.

My problem is, that all have been very underdeveloped.
Game could focus on one of those and make it deep and epic.

I mean, if there was big Templar/Mage conflict right from start and you would
be either helping one of the sides or trying to solve the mess, it would give
much better impression then doing chores for random people 90% of game.

How many of those "random" chores relate back to the mage/Templar feud? Quite a few, as I remember.

The Qunari plot also gets some build-up during the first year.

It's not entirely random, but it's not meant to be one cohesive plot. It's a story of a man/woman's adventurous life in Kirkwall, and like the day-to-day life of anyone, it's filled with smaller plots, some of which come back and weave their way into deeper stories, but not all of which directly relate to some massive overarching story. At the end of the day, it's actually LESS contrived than Origins, where there was *supposedly* an overarching plot, but where you really just wound up conveniently arriving in search of aid to deal with the plot, and wound up having to deal with a given region's massive sideplot--because the Blight is obviously the perfect time for some massive catastrophe to occur in every single place the hero has to go, right?

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 15 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[Stalky24]

Blood Magic is like having illegal gun. Its not that hard to get one, but consiquences are terrible.
Thus, I wasnt surprised Orsino knew Blood Magic. He is first enchanter, he needs to know this stuff.
Harvester mode was little over the top, but who cares...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
So... the entire act sucks because of the last five minutes?

The "plot twists" define everything that came before.

And like I said before, I enjoyed Act 3, up until the "plot twists" that banalized everything before.

Incidentally, "controlled" is the wrong word. You can tell from her personality that the lyrium idol only twisted her innate fears and views, and she was known as being too harsh even before the Deep Roads expedition brought the idol into play.

Meredith might have been bad from the beginning, but the crisis only starts after Act 2. After she acquired the thing, then she becdame beyond reason. Barring the fact that I think her evolution into a paranoid tyrant could have been explored without any outside influence much better, I wouldn't mind the outside influence if it's at least explained a little. We know nothing here. And nothing does not act as a subsitute for absent character development.

It was mostly just to provide a massive and epic final boss, granted, but turning both sides' leaders into ravenous beasts in the end was sort of a cool touch (if not executed as well as could have been). It strikes me as a good emphasis of the point that both sides were ultimately wrong.

What it did is show that all of them are essentially mad.
I would have preferred showing that both factions have a point (thus automatically saying both factions can be seen as wrong). Instead of showing that both factions are bat**** crazy or at least represented by bat**** crazy leaders. Add in way too many demons in the mix, and the whole thing was essentially chaos almost compeltely devoid of actual conflict

That you spent more time fighting demons than Templars when you sided with the mages, and that siding with the Templars hits you with multiple opportunities to save unpossessed mages, also emphasizes that the side you chose wasn't all-the-way in the right.

That could have been accomplished with blood mages.
Like I said before, I do not mind demons showing up. But there were too many of them. It missed the point.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 12:31 .

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It was a magical artifact that was created, for a specific purpose, by a people we know about, in circumstances that we read about. The anvil is a means to portray what people are willing to do to survive. It had a purpose in the story, with a choice that we have to make (vs none in DA2). That's first. Second, it did not take anything away from the humanity of the issue.  The anvil did not control people, or influence them. Branka was hearing the voices of people that were golomised, but that's different. She was being herself, she was always obsessed with the anvil. Thirdly, it was not the main thing in the story, or even in the Orzammar quest. It did not substitute for character development.
The anvil is not dangerous, it's how people use it. Huge difference.

Here we have an artifact we know nothing about, that does things we do not understand. And that seemingly either controls people, or influences them to the point of madness, taking away their humanity. And that was supposed to act as a substitute for the character development that Meredith and Orsino did not get?

Had they explained what this idol is, even a little bit, and show us how it would fit in the larger scheme of things, I might be able to tolerate it, if it's interesting. But we have nothing and we have no guarantees that they will ever explain it. And even if they explain it later, the damage is already done. They had no character development, and postponed the explanation till after the game.

I know, that's why I said the Anvil of the Void wasn't nefarious - it was created by Caridin and had no will/influence of its own. I was just mentioning in context with my theory that this idol (even when transformed into a sword) might have similar powers of animation - even without the life-force of another being. I think it's not out of the realm of possiblity, but hey, that's just me. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything - it's just my personal view on the subject. No, we don't know who created the idol or anything about it really, and we might never see it again or have it fully explained. However, I tend to enjoy mysteries, so I look at the idol as one.

As far as Orsino goes - I think the man just snapped at the end and made a bad decision. People's reaction to Act 3 probably depends in part on how much detail/cahracter development they feel they need. More character development would have been nice, sure, I would neve argue against that. However, from what I gathered about the whole situation, I think I understood enough about the pressure that Orsino was under and learned all I needed to know about Meredith through her actions. I was satisfied that I knew what kind of people they were without having had to engage in extensive conversations over a long period of time. For example, to me, Orsino seemed to care about his mages and seemed to be a reasonable fellow (if somewhat impolitic when it came to Meredith).

[Cobra5]

Hi uh...

There's too much for me to read through this whole thread but I just want to voice my oppinion (in hopes that bioware will hear us better).

The game did totally fall apart at act three.

The way you walk in to an argument between the First Enchanter and the Knight Captain, and that's going to be the big climatic battle... we're asked to pick sides between two characters we've never met (Well we saw them once, barely spoke) and there's no introduction or lead up at all.

Overall its a good game but it fell apart. After the act 2 climax everything just screamed "rushed".

That's all from me...

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
I know, that's why I said the Anvil of the Void wasn't nefarious - it was created by Caridin and had no will/influence of its own. I was just mentioning in context with my theory that this idol (even when transformed into a sword) might have similar powers of animation - even without the life-force of another being. I think it's not out of the realm of possiblity, but hey, that's just me.

And I didn't say it's out of the relm of posibility. It's magic.
Other than the fact that I thought it looked ridiculous, I would have preferred fighting a person, with human motivations without any unknown outside influence. Not this. Origins had it with Loghain.
And if there was an outside influence, at least explain it a bit.

And that's why I feel it took away from the humanity. I didn't feel like I was fighting Meredith. I felt like I was fighting an insane possessed maniac under the control or influence of something I had no idea what it is. 
Compare that with the Arishok. Not only did I understand what and who the Arishok is, I respected him. I was fighting a person, with understandable motivations, and who showed mutual respect. We talked with him several times, which was enough for us to understand him. And we saw him evolving. From stoic and patient , to irritated, to losing his patience and unleashing his wrath. And for understandable reasons that were shown and explained. 

For me the latter is much superior.
When I saw the Arishok dying, I felt regret. I had hoped we had the option to spare him. With Meredith, there was no conflict. while there might have been tragedy in Meredith,  I don't think anyone would express the slightest hint of regret or conflict at killing her. Orsino was even worse, at least Meredith talked a bit.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 12:48 .

[hawkens982]

Agreed on pretty much all the points in the OP's post.

By the end of Act 3 I was so tired of fighting demons I wished I could've called on the Ghost Busters.

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
I know, that's why I said the Anvil of the Void wasn't nefarious - it was created by Caridin and had no will/influence of its own. I was just mentioning in context with my theory that this idol (even when transformed into a sword) might have similar powers of animation - even without the life-force of another being. I think it's not out of the realm of possiblity, but hey, that's just me.

And I didn't say it's out of the relm of posibility. It's magic.
Other than the fact that I thought it looked ridiculous, I would have preferred fighting a person, with human motivations without any unknown outside influence. Not this. Origins had it with Loghain.
And if there was an outside influence, at least explain it a bit.

And that's why I feel it took away from the humanity. I didn't feel like I was fighting Meredith. I felt like I was fighting an insane possessed maniac under the control or influence of something I had no idea what it is. 
Compare that with the Arishok. Not only did I understand what and who the Arishok is, I respected him. I was fighting a person, with understandable motivations, and who showed mutual respect. We talked with him several times, which was enough for us to understand him. And we saw him evolving. From stoic and patient , to irritated, to losing his patience and unleashing his wrath. And for understandable reasons that were shown and explained. 

For me the latter is much superior.
When I saw the Arishok dying, I felt regret. I had hoped we had the option to spare him. With Meredith, there was no conflict. while there might have been tragedy in Meredith,  I don't think anyone would express the slightest hint of regret or conflict at killing her. Orsino was even worse, at least Meredith talked a bit.

Well, I think we can at least agree on the Arishok. I had a fair amount of respect for him and would have preferred a peaceful resolution, but that wasn't ever going to happen with the Qun in the way I suppose. You just needed more with Orsino and Meredith, but I didn't. I just don't require such a personal connection to understand someone (again, that's just me). However, I think the relationship with the Arishok was handled well, and yes, you got a close-up look as he became increasingly impatient.

The knight-commander and mages have lead more cloistered lives though (the mages forced to by Meredith, while Meredith keeps to herself by choice). Unless Meredith wants to see you, there's no logical reason to chat her up. It's only after the qunari uprising that you're powerful and influential enough to be worthy of her notice I imagine.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 15 mars 2011 - 01:17 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
The knight-commander and mages have lead more cloistered lives though (the mages forced to by Meredith, while Meredith keeps to herself by choice) Unless Meredith wants to see you, there's no logical reason to chat her up. It's only after the qunari uprising that you're powerful and influential enough to be worthy of her notice I imagine.

Talking to her directly was not necessary. In Origins, we only get to talk to Loghain at Ostagar, and before and during the Landsmeet. And potentially after.

That said, we had cutscenes showing us what he was doing. We had people who know him on a personal level talking about him (primarily Eamon, Anora and Cauthrien). And as an aside, it had role playing opportunity, if  you were playing a human noble or city elf. The guy could have very well been your childhood hero, while Hawke never met Meredith and barely knows her, but I'll put that as an aside as it requires RPing. And then we had Loghain as a companion explaining his position. 

With the exception of the one small convo with Cullen, we don't get much info on Meredith and that was more how Cullen thought of the whole thing than Meredith perse. We know of her policies, but not of the person. We hear a small rumor that she is going insane, but it's by a person who I assume doesn't know Meredith on a personal level and it's not a dialogue. We know even less about Orsino.

Not only do I feel that Meredith could have been introduced earlier, I also feel that she could have recieved more character development via other characters who know her personally. For instance, have the Grand Cleric tell us about Meredith as a youngster or something. The Grand Cleric was the obvious choice to make us understand Meredith better and develop her character.
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 01:14 .

[AtreiyaN7]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
The knight-commander and mages have lead more cloistered lives though (the mages forced to by Meredith, while Meredith keeps to herself by choice) Unless Meredith wants to see you, there's no logical reason to chat her up. It's only after the qunari uprising that you're powerful and influential enough to be worthy of her notice I imagine.

Talking to her directly was not necessary. In Origins, we only get to talk to Loghain at Ostagar, and before and during the Landsmeet. And potentially after.

That said, we had cutscenes showing us what he was doing. We had people who know him on a personal level talking about him (primarily Eamon, Anora and Cauthrien). And as an aside, it had role playing opportunity, if  you were playing a human noble or city elf. The guy could have very well been your childhood hero, while Hawke never met Meredith and barely knows her, but I'll put that as an aside as it requires RPing. And then we had Loghain as a companion explaining his position. 

With the exception of the one small convo with Cullen, we don't get much info on Meredith and that was more how Cullen thought of the whole thing than Meredith perse. We know of her policies, but not of the person. We hear a small rumor that she is going insane, but it's by a person who I assume doesn't know Meredith on a personal level and it's not a dialogue. We know even less about Orsino.

Not only do I feel that Meredith could have been introduced earlier, I also feel that she could have recieved more character development via other characters who know her personally. For instance, have the Grand Cleric tell us about Meredith as a youngster or something. The Grand Cleric was the obvious choice to make us understand Meredith better and develop her character.
 

To me, Meredith is like an island unto herself - a very distant and remote figure who remains something of a cipher for much of the game. However, you make a good point about Loghain's cutscenes. The judicious use of cutscenes involving Meredith could have been a nice touch and satisfied many people. As far as the Elthina thing goes, I would find it a bit odd to hear her dish on Meredith as a youngster. How would you even bring that up? I think Elthina said something at one point indicating that she disapproved of gossip (could be wrong though).