238 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

To complain about Orsino's transformation and all the demon possessed mages is simply a result of not paying enough attention. Another example of Bioware overestimating many members of their audience. Orsino has been working on blood magic projects for years, although not actually using it lest he be caught, if anyone remembers Quentin. It seems fairly obvious to conclude that if the First Enchanter studies particularly dark and evil Blood Magic for giggles, the rest of the Circle is hardly going to be as healthy as the one in Fereldan.

As for Meredith, she seems fairly rational though increasingly extreme until the end. Of course, she experiences her clear break from reality when she decides to annul the Circle. I don't really have complaints with the way she turned increasingly fervent in her beliefs. Lyrium normally does that to people, she only ended up assuming that the whispers were from the Maker.

I personally liked the third act best because of Anders, which solidifies the whole story as a tragedy rather than a generic hero saves the world and creates rainbows with his pure awesomeness story. I enjoyed the handling of Orsino because it frankly helped to wrap up why the Circle in Kirkwall was growing increasingly extreme. I heavily doubted mages would be resorting to something that they had been indoctrinated into believing was heinous and evil and been able to do this so easily(remember Blood Magic isn't the easiest thing to learn) without Orsino having a hand in convincing them. I didn't really need to know the guy better, he helped to kill Leandra. Meredith probably had no life outside the order for at least the last decade, so she's more symbolic as simply being the opposite end of the mages deserve freedom vs mages need to be controlled spectrum.

To me they were more important as representatives of ideology than as individual characters. The Third Act for me as about Hawke, Elthina, Anders, and how the mage uprising began.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ignoring the haughty superior than thou attitude.

Vandicus wrote...
Orsino has been working on blood magic projects for years, although not actually using it lest he be caught, if anyone remembers Quentin. It seems fairly obvious to conclude that if the First Enchanter studies particularly dark and evil Blood Magic for giggles, the rest of the Circle is hardly going to be as healthy as the one in Fereldan.

This is established in the last five minutes of the game, with no hints of it before. We know that Quentin stopped recieving support from the Circle and we had no indication whatsoever that his research had anythign to do with harvesters.

The point was, there was no character development. You say you are interested in ideologies and not people. I say ideologies work best when they are represented by actual developped characters and vice versa at the same time. Rather than have empty shell characters whose sole purpose is to portray an ideology. And even that doens't work as both characters end up being insane. They end up representing nothing.

Second, what does Quentin's research have to do with the Harvester than was secretly created by Dwarves? None of that is explained.

As for Meredith, she seems fairly rational though increasingly extreme until the end. Of course, she experiences her clear break from reality when she decides to annul the Circle. I don't really have complaints with the way she turned increasingly fervent in her beliefs. Lyrium normally does that to people, she only ended up assuming that the whispers were from the Maker.

This is not normal lyrium.
And I feel it would have been much better if she recieved actual character development, rather than make her mad at the end because of outside influence.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 01:43 .

[KorPhaeron]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ignoring the haughty superior than thou attitude.

Vandicus wrote...
Orsino has been working on blood magic projects for years, although not actually using it lest he be caught, if anyone remembers Quentin. It seems fairly obvious to conclude that if the First Enchanter studies particularly dark and evil Blood Magic for giggles, the rest of the Circle is hardly going to be as healthy as the one in Fereldan.

This is established in the last five minutes of the game, with no hints of it before. We know that Quentin stopped recieving support from the Circle and we had no indication whatsoever that his research had anythign to do with harvesters.

The point was, there was no character development. You say you are interested in ideologies and not people. I say ideologies work best when they are represented by actual developped characters and vice versa at the same time. Rather than have empty shell characters whose sole purpose is to portray an ideology. And even that doens't work as both characters end up being insane. They end up representing nothing.

Second, what does Quentin's research have to do with the Harvester than was secretly created by Dwarves? None of that is explained.

As for Meredith, she seems fairly rational though increasingly extreme until the end. Of course, she experiences her clear break from reality when she decides to annul the Circle. I don't really have complaints with the way she turned increasingly fervent in her beliefs. Lyrium normally does that to people, she only ended up assuming that the whispers were from the Maker.

This is not normal lyrium.
And I feel it would have been much better if she recieved actual character development, rather than make her mad at the end because of outside influence.

3 things:

1)Actually you find a letter in Quentin's place signed with an "O", Also Ouentin was working on animating a body made from different corpses.

2)If you watched Orisino's transformation you'll see all the bodies around him merge with him.

3)What do you you know about the "Harvester" ? How was it created, maybe it was done the same way.

Modifié par KorPhaeron, 15 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

KorPhaeron wrote...
3 things:

1)Actually you find a letter in Quentin's place signed with an "O", Also Ouentin was working on animating a body made from different corpses.

2)If you watched Orisino's transformation you'll see all the bodies around him merge with him.

3)What do you you know about the "Harvester" ? How was it created, maybe it was done the same way.

Because there can't be any other mage with a name that starts with O. And you'd think Hawke would ask Orsino about this when he meets him, but nope, nothing.

The creation of the Harvester was an elaborate project done by the Dwarves of Amgarrak, with the assistance of a Tevinter Magister. It's not solely magic, the dwarves had a hand in this.

I am not saying that the Harvester is implausible. I am saying it came out of nowhere. Why not hint at it? Why not explain how Quentin's obsession with reviving his wife (just necromancy) had anything to do with the harvester?
None of that is even remotely explained and is left at the last 5 minutes.

And Orsino did not even need to do this, Hawke was winning. And yet he resorts to this, proves the Templars right, and ends up turning against his own allies. What for?
If it was clearly shown as an act of desperation (like he had a sword on his throat), with some hints and explanations and character development that would make me care about Orsino, then it would have been fine. But we had none of that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 02:10 .

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ignoring the haughty superior than thou attitude.

Vandicus wrote...
Orsino has been working on blood magic projects for years, although not actually using it lest he be caught, if anyone remembers Quentin. It seems fairly obvious to conclude that if the First Enchanter studies particularly dark and evil Blood Magic for giggles, the rest of the Circle is hardly going to be as healthy as the one in Fereldan.

This is established in the last five minutes of the game, with no hints of it before. We know that Quentin stopped recieving support from the Circle and we had no indication whatsoever that his research had anythign to do with harvesters.

The point was, there was no character development. You say you are interested in ideologies and not people. I say ideologies work best when they are represented by actual developped characters and vice versa at the same time. Rather than have empty shell characters whose sole purpose is to portray an ideology. And even that doens't work as both characters end up being insane. They end up representing nothing.

Second, what does Quentin's research have to do with the Harvester than was secretly created by Dwarves? None of that is explained.

As for Meredith, she seems fairly rational though increasingly extreme until the end. Of course, she experiences her clear break from reality when she decides to annul the Circle. I don't really have complaints with the way she turned increasingly fervent in her beliefs. Lyrium normally does that to people, she only ended up assuming that the whispers were from the Maker.

This is not normal lyrium.
And I feel it would have been much better if she recieved actual character development, rather than make her mad at the end because of outside influence.

Another person has answered some of this, as for the Harvester, players really have to connect the dots. The Harvester concept is simply a bunch of corpses mixed together and a Fade spirit stuck into them. Combining multiple bodies is higher level blood magic them simple creation of abominations, but not by a whole lot. It is stated that Quentin's work is based on necromantic tomes from Tevintir. To say that dwarves created the Harvester isn't entirely accurate. They provided money, lyrium, and bodies, but a Tevintir mage did the rest. To suppose that the Harvester created in Golems was unique doesn't make much sense. The Harvester was in fact able to replicate itself. Who provides knowledge of blood magic? Demons do. A demon who wasn't present when the body of the Harvester was being formed could hardly make more of itself. Therefore demons also know the process. From there, it can be concluded that there are two major sources that Orsino can recieve the information with, and we already know he has contacts in Tevintir and has worked on blood magic.

However this doesn't answer your main complain which is that you feel Meredith and Orsino don't get enough character development in your opinion. I disagree on that point, but I guess this is more of a conflict of opinion, so I guess I'll agree to disagree with you if you're cool with that.

*EDIT

You also say  that Orsino had no reason to turn Harvester, which is supported by how fights work in the game. Kill some people and heal to full immediately afterwards. However, all the templars in the city are trying to kill the mages, which means they number in the hundreds. Defeating them doesn't seem plausible, even for Hawke, which the devs try to play up by making the templars(assuming mage-side Hawke) decide not to attack him and let him run away.

Modifié par Vandicus, 15 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Just finished the game, thought "act 3 was a piece of sh*t" and came here to post this, and you beat me to it.

Act 2 and even 1 were fun and made sense and were interesting.

Act 3 made me angry so many times because it was so contrived and I couldn't do anything. I'd walk up to mages and they'd start attacking me for no reason without any cause and I had at every chance sided with them...ummm wth bioware? I'd tell someone I don't side with Meredith about 10 times a minute and still have to do it again and again. People attack and die without me understanding why or who.

It was completely rushed with no characterization of Orsino or Meredith. I played a mage so I thought maybe Meredith got flushed out if you're a fighter siding with the templars but, apparently not.

Why am I fighting mages if I side with the mages? Doesn't make any sense. When Orsino watched me kill all the templars attacking single handedly and then decides inexplicably to turn himself into jabba the hutt and attack me? All the times before he was normal and sensible and just told his mages to flee Kirkwall...um....why are you attacking me? Because "magic demons"? Stupid.

Then Meredith having the idol and being insane...turning into some anime rip off and ...yah. The less said the better.

Act 2 was much much MUCH better done.

Why didn't they incorporate Orsino and Meredith in acts 1 and 2 (more than just the token ending appearance) if they intended to base the endo f the game on them?

Ugh. FAIL by bioware on the third act.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
However this doesn't answer your main complain which is that you feel Meredith and Orsino don't get enough character development in your opinion. I disagree on that point, but I guess this is more of a conflict of opinion, so I guess I'll agree to disagree with you if you're cool with that.

Indeed it doesn't. That wasn't my main issue. My main issue, vis a vis Orsino / Harvester, is that it came out of nowhere and felt like they were adding a boss fight just for the sake of it.  You'd think that Hawke, who lost his mother because of a mage who had some support of the Circle, would be able to ask Orsino this. And get a hint or something that Orsino did not reject the research. That would have shed more light on Quentin  and his research, but also on Orsino himself and by implication, Meredith whose paranoia might not be completely unfounded. But that was missing. 

Like I said to the other response, I don't think the Harvester is implausible. Just comes out of the blues, in a rather mediocre fight. And Orsino did not get enough development to make him an interesting character, which he could have been.

And I am cool with it
I emphasizied in the OP that this is my personal opinion.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 02:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
You also say  that Orsino had no reason to turn Harvester, which is supported by how fights work in the game. Kill some people and heal to full immediately afterwards. However, all the templars in the city are trying to kill the mages, which means they number in the hundreds. Defeating them doesn't seem plausible, even for Hawke, which the devs try to play up by making the templars(assuming mage-side Hawke) decide not to attack him and let him run away.

And couldn't have Orsino also try to get away instead of turning into a monstrosity that turns against his own allies that were trying to protect him and possibly against surviving mages? It was an idiot move.  

Hawke desmonstrated that he and his companions can hold their own. Instead of assisting them and possibly escaping, he does this. Which wouldn't have been bad if Orsino as a character was developped to be a person that easily  cracks under pressure and that already dabbled in forbidden arts.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[Jeeriggs]

Cobra5 wrote...

Hi uh...

There's too much for me to read through this whole thread but I just want to voice my oppinion (in hopes that bioware will hear us better).

The game did totally fall apart at act three.

The way you walk in to an argument between the First Enchanter and the Knight Captain, and that's going to be the big climatic battle... we're asked to pick sides between two characters we've never met (Well we saw them once, barely spoke) and there's no introduction or lead up at all.

Overall its a good game but it fell apart. After the act 2 climax everything just screamed "rushed".

That's all from me...

Um... there were quite a few times you came in contact with both Meredith and Orsino. They both also gave multiple quests and you could easily figure out which one you liked more.

I chose to side with the mages mainly because of not wanting to kill Bethany, and also because I absolutely hated Meredith from the very beginning.

Then I found out how weak Orsino is, and how quickly he resorted to blood magic, and I thought to myself, "****, maybe I chose wrong after all..."

Though Meredith was a  major whack job, I'd seen enough up to that point to realize that A LOT of the mages were just as crazy, if not more.

In the end (in my game), Hawke went out of his way to help the mages, and always tried to do his best to help them, and how was he rewarded? A mage killed his mother; he was attacked by mages in the street; mages he helped try and escape Kirkwall ****ed up and turned on him later, almost killing both him and Bethany in the process; Anders basically screwed everyone over with his little stunt near the end; some killed indiscriminately for no major reason than to do it, etc., etc.

Templars are the lesser of two evils in the end, at least in my playthrough... but I couldn't bring myself to join their side, simply because they'd kill EVERY mage, including Bethany... who honestly, aside from maybe one or two small exceptions in the game, was the only really 'good' mage there was. 

My next playthrough will reflect these newfound feelings on the situation.

[Rykoth]

Act 3 was a bit on the short side.

IMO, Act 1 was the longest, and they could have done with cutting that down a bit and more adding on to Acts 2 and 3 if they were that constricted by time.

That said, I thought Act 3 was quite intense. Act 2 was definitely my favorite part with the Qunari, especially the Arishok's rant before the fighting begins.

HOWEVER.... to say Act 3 was a copout IMO is a signal you might not have picked up on everything, which... I doubt anyone would expect that. I'm on my second playthrough and have already picked up on new stuff, and done things way differently then I did with my Warrior Hawke.

For one, and this I noticed on Day 1. Meredith? I knew she was bad news the moment I saw her after 1 year passed, when she walked by the beggar. The heresay, the rumors, remember, some NPCs you can still chat with even without a quest available/to do for them. Talking to the head of the Chantry, to Cullen, etc.

It's very clear, Meredith is BAD NEWS. We get alot of impending stuff regarding her.

IMO, "magic did it" is the perfect excuse for why she snaps, as well as why the First Enchanter goes off his rocker.

Look at DAO:
- The Mage Tower, and Uldred's corruption. Now, granted, the most experienced DAO player is gonna use him as a roll of toilet paper, BUT, the abomination he turned into was one mean mother in appearance and strength. (let's face it, before there were guides, and people knew what to do, I'm sure Uldred was a PITA to kill)

- So if one puny wizard like Uldred (compared to the First Enchanter in Kirkwall) can turn into something like that, why wouldn't a hopeless, vulnerable, and perhaps pushed to the brink First Enchanter turn into a nasty blood beast Harvester? It's clear that both sides are pushed to EXTREMES. That's the ironic part. Qunari? Extremes. Mages? Extremes. Templars? Extremes. And yet the one extreme that could provide some sort of balance, was stopped by the Champion in Act 2.

- Templars. You hear rumors of lyrium addiction. The lyrium addled Templar in Denerim. The mad crazy templar in Howe's cellar. Average men driven mad. Enter Meredith. Powerful. Knight Commander. Likely a lifetime of being infused with Lyrium. She's obviously a tyrant,  she defies the Chantry, and she gets her hands on a lyrium idol, that is likely going to be the key element in DA3. Of course she flips. She's already influenced by "magic." The whole concept of templars can be put on the excuse of "magic did it."

... or as Anders puts it, "a wizard did it."

Point being though. Meredith was already probably not the most sane person as Knight Commander. Kirkwall is crime infested, and makes savage Fereldan look like a cakewalk half the time. Or all the time.

IMO, the only part about Act 3 that went wrong, is that it was too short. I thought it was well done for not being as long as the other two acts, but it could have used some more meat. I'm thankful we got the impending build up to who Meredith might be in Acts 1 and 2, without that, I might agree with the OP. I do wish we could have gotten more info though in Act 3 via interaction.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rykoth wrote...

For one, and this I noticed on Day 1. Meredith? I knew she was bad news the moment I saw her after 1 year passed, when she walked by the beggar. The heresay, the rumors, remember, some NPCs you can still chat with even without a quest available/to do for them. Talking to the head of the Chantry, to Cullen, etc.

It's very clear, Meredith is BAD NEWS. We get alot of impending stuff regarding her.

That's not in question, but we also hear that Meredith rejected the Tranquil Solution before. Things started to seriously go down hill after Act 2, aka after she got the idol.

There is a difference between bad news, and completely insane. With no character development in between.

The hearsay and all that are about Meredith's policies. Which is fine and necessary. But we don't get to know about her as a character and we don't see her evolve. All it ends up being is that she went insane because "magic did it".  Instead of giving actual strong reasons as to why she became what she is. "Magic did it" is just a poor excuse for no character development.

I might tolerate it for minor characters that are irrelevent. But the mage / templar conflict is primarily a human one. Once you start adding in too much insanity, demons and outside influences that we know nothing about, it makes it less human and more like a chaotic void.

At the end, it didn't feel like I was fighting Orsino and Meredith. It felt like I was fighting two maniacs, both of which completely lost their humanity. Add to that that we knew very little about them in the first place.  And I dislike that. The battle with the Arishok was very different and that's what I would want. Because I think the Mage / Templar issue deserves more than this.

IMO, "magic did it" is the perfect excuse for why she snaps, as well as why the First Enchanter goes off his rocker.

There were much better ways to reach that conclusion and make us feel that we are dealing with people and not things that either  come out of nowhere, or influenced by something we know nothing about. .

Look at DAO:
- The Mage Tower, and Uldred's corruption. Now, granted, the most experienced DAO player is gonna use him as a roll of toilet paper, BUT, the abomination he turned into was one mean mother in appearance and strength. (let's face it, before there were guides, and people knew what to do, I'm sure Uldred was a PITA to kill)

That's a Demon of Pride. This was all explained in the game before Uldred and after. We know quite a lot about demons and abominations. With the Harvester, none of that is really elaborated. To what extent was Orsino responsable? Why did he allow it? Reasons might be obvious, but details like that add character. 

With Uldred, we had an idea of what happened primarily via Wynne.

- Templars. You hear rumors of lyrium addiction. The lyrium addled Templar in Denerim. The mad crazy templar in Howe's cellar. Average men driven mad. Enter Meredith. Powerful. Knight Commander. Likely a lifetime of being infused with Lyrium. She's obviously a tyrant,  she defies the Chantry, and she gets her hands on a lyrium idol, that is likely going to be the key element in DA3. Of course she flips. She's already influenced by "magic." The whole concept of templars can be put on the excuse of "magic did it."

I am not saying it's implausible (with magic did it, I can make anythign work). What I am saying is:
- I would have preferred keeping it more human and complex, rather than "magic did it". But I can tolerate outside influence if explained at least a bit.
- We know nothing of this idol at all. 
- Meredith recieved no character development, so the nothing we know of the idol does not substitute for this.
- Waiting till DA3 to explain to us what the idol is, is laziness. If it was that crucial, it should have been explained at least a little in DA2 and show us that it's part of the larger scheme.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
You also say  that Orsino had no reason to turn Harvester, which is supported by how fights work in the game. Kill some people and heal to full immediately afterwards. However, all the templars in the city are trying to kill the mages, which means they number in the hundreds. Defeating them doesn't seem plausible, even for Hawke, which the devs try to play up by making the templars(assuming mage-side Hawke) decide not to attack him and let him run away.

And couldn't have Orsino also try to get away instead of turning into a monstrosity that turns against his own allies that were trying to protect him and possibly against surviving mages? It was an idiot move.  

Hawke desmonstrated that he and his companions can hold their own. Instead of assisting them and possibly escaping, he does this. Which wouldn't have been bad if Orsino as a character was developped to be a person that easily  cracks under pressure and that already dabbled in forbidden arts.

Hawke is let go on the mage side, he doesn't fight his way out.

*EDIT

Perhaps the fight doesn't seem as inevitable to everyone else, but I assumed that since the Templars made up the main military force of Kirkwall, that the battle supporting the mages wasn't actually possible to win. It took Fereldan's entire army to beat some 100(or was it 200?) Grey Wardens. I had 6 chars by that point, and one competent mage. Therefore an army smaller than one tenth of Fereldan's size could dislodge my force, even if my force was Grey Warden level, which story wise, most of them weren't, Hawke vs Warden debates aside. It seemed logical to me that Kirkwall had more than enough manpower to defeat Hawke, especially considering most of the common folk, who don't realize that Anders was the only culprit at this point, would probably want all the mages dead.

Modifié par Vandicus, 15 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[njebei]

I've bought every Bioware game since I got the first Baldur's Gate game in the 90s. I readily admit to being a Bioware fanboy and while they aren't usually cutting edge in graphics one thing you can count on is a great story. After finishing DA2 I was so mad I decided to register just to complain about how much this game annoyed me. Luckily someone has already started a thread (actually it appears I could pick a hundred similar threads).

The story started a bit slow but quickly picked up steam. By the second chapter it really hit its stride and some of the quest lines rank up there with some of the best I've ever played. As I started the final chapter my expectations were really high but I was sorely disappointed. There are two main stories in the final chapter and both were bad. The whole Merrill storyline limped to a weak conclusion (I ended up having to kill all the elves) and my romance with Anders concluded with him betraying me and I knifed him in the back. I could excuse all that but the Orsino/Meridith conclusion was especially weak. I saw the Orsino part coming as every other mage to that point had turned into a demon so I figured I'd be fighting him too. The plot device to make it happen was stupid as he basically decided to turn on his own free will to fight Meridith then attack his allies instead. Soon after that the same thing happened with Meridith. It was very sad conclusion especially when compared to depth in the Arishok questline. As the credits rolled I realized that pretty much every NPC was dead. I don't mind dark but that is just plain stupid when so many questions are left unanswered.

I know Bioware is capable of better and I definitely feel like I got ripped off. The hurried ending and numerous bugs makes me feel that this game was rushed to market so that EA could hit their first quarter profit numbers. It's really too bad as it could have been a really great game. For the first time I think that EA is affecting Bioware quality and it makes me fear for future games.

[saintjimmy43]

Not to oversimplify the issue, but after seeing all this argument I just feel like my two cents could be tossed in:
The Arishok is an awesome enemy with good dialogue and character progression. The templars and the mages arguing about blood magic and extreme measures pales in comparison to the military discipline "i-can't-freakin-stand-this-city-any-longer" Arashok and his opinions about honor and Kirkwall.
Plus, by the time Act 3 rolled around, some people might have gotten a little sick of the repetition of levels, and the feeling that the end was really close made people appreciate the story a little less, particularly when (SPOILER SPOILER) Anders blows up the Chantry and FORCES you to pick a side.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Vandicus wrote...
Hawke is let go on the mage side, he doesn't fight his way out.

I know he doesn't.
I am talking about Orsino at that moment. Instead of using all the power he has(heck even blood magic)  to try and escape (whether it's possible or not is not the issue, either do or die. I think they had a chance to escape), he decides that turning into a monster to kill everyone he was trying to protect and who were protecting him, was a better idea.

If, on the other hand, Orsino had actual character development hinting at us that he can crack under pressure relatively easily, or harbors intense hatred, in addition to potentially dabbling in dangerous magic, then it would have made sense. But since we know almost nothing, it just came out of nowhere and makes him look like an idiot. And that's the guy who thought what Anders did was extreme.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 03:10 .

[Rykoth]

I do have the thought, that I kinda wished Act2 and 3 had been reversed. Civil war in Kirkwall between Mages and Templar to end Act 2, begin Act 3 with the fact the city is divided. Finally, after sitting by, the Arishok thus springs in to action.

I'm still satisfied with the conclusion, just wish it was longer.

Though KOP, we'll have to disagree about the idol. I think it's a plot device, being saved for the conclusion of the Champion's Tale.

[Kimberly Shaw]

But since we know almost nothing, it just came out of nowhere and makes him look like an idiot.

Not just that. It SCREAMED of cheap contrivance to make a big bad boss fight out of nowhere. Ugh.

[IronVanguard]

I've definitely got to agree about Orsino. When he turned on me, I just had to go WTF. You've got the strongest person in Kirkwall, the Champion, and his great friends aiding you. Not but a few minutes ago, he was speaking fairly rationally. We had just pushed back the first batch of Templars rather handily. Then he does weird blood magic, and turns on me. Really dude? Thanks for that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

But since we know almost nothing, it just came out of nowhere and makes him look like an idiot.

Not just that. It SCREAMED of cheap contrivance to make a big bad boss fight out of nowhere. Ugh.

It would have made sense ande owul have been interesting, if the character was developped.

Off the top of my head:
- Hawke knows Quentin was in liason with the Circle. We meet Orsino at around that time (mid Act 2).

- We ask him about it and get some hints that he encouraged / allowed it to an extent, but without explictly making it look like he is responsable for what happened to your mother (let the player reach the conclusion).

- That would have achieved a dual purpose. A. show that Orsino is dabbling in dangerous magic and considering his options. B- that Meredith is not completely wrong. Both being part of the extremist circular effect. 

- also show that Orsino, while looking mostly reasonable and sober, is starting to lose his patience and his nerves (that was done well with the Arishok).

- In the cutscene itself, Orsino looks too sober and decides to become a harvester out of his own free will. Either have a cutscene showing us his desperation clearly, perhaps not acting entirely out of his free will (maybe demons are involved in the harvester). Or establish before that he is becoming unstable and can't mentally take it anymore (and not just in the 5 minutes before. But throughout).

That, imo, would have made it much better. And it would have made Orsino a tragic character. If the same was done with Meredith (who had slightly more development than him, which I think we see before Anders blows up the Chantry), the effect would have been doubled. Both tragic characters, culprits and victims of the same thing. 
Instead, we get two maniacs with no to little character development.

Really, it should have been done like the Arishok / Sister Petrice. Though we only see Petrice three times, we actually see her evolving (from idealist and slightly naive to more ruthless). Though the Arishok was the more important and developped of the two. And yes, I wished Petrice was developped more. But she got more character progression than Orsino.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd change the thread title to 'Act 3 Conclusion: Garbage' to be a little more precise, but overall I agree that the delimmas were most real when they were humanized. Even, or especially, the Templar Conspiracy in Act 3 had an overall good basis thanks to Thrask, while I found most the companion's Act 3 quests excellent as well.


It's just those last, five minutes... and the mixed leadup to them, much like you say. It was certainly a spectacular battle to play through (and could have been neatly covered as a Varric embellishment at least in respect to Meredith), but I fully agree about the flaws you pointed to. The Idol, the extremely late character introduction. The (lack of) development.

'Garbage' is overstating it, but it certainly wasn't all it could have been.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd change the thread title to 'Act 3 Conclusion: Garbage' to be a little more precise

Noted, will do.

[boraxalmighty]

Some of you seem to be forgetting that the rite of annulment was in effect. When the rite is set in motion there is no escape and Orsino knew it. He was doomed and everything he tried to accomplish after years in the Circle had come crashing down so he decided to go out fighting. It seems like most of you just played through the game and missed most of the plot points. By the time you finally meet Meredith you already have a built in understanding about her through the quest you do and the actions of the templars and mages you interact with. You know everything you need to know about her. As for Orsino he's just not that important a character. You don't need to know much about him because he is generally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. There are subtle hints into his character through several quest but outside of that he's really just another mage backed into a corner but turns into something uglier because being first enchanter allows for access to a greater pool of knowledge of the dark arts.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd change the thread title to 'Act 3 Conclusion: Garbage' to be a little more precise

Noted, will do.

You always were a reasonable man willing to moderate your words.

[Kimberly Shaw]

As for Orsino he's just not that important a character.

My bad, I thought he and Meredith were the characters that come up when I turn the game on.

[KnightofPhoenix]

boraxalmighty wrote...

Some of you seem to be forgetting that the rite of annulment was in effect. When the rite is set in motion there is no escape and Orsino knew it. He was doomed and everything he tried to accomplish after years in the Circle had come crashing down so he decided to go out fighting.

He can always try to escape and rally the survivors. But go out fighting by killing his own allies is so much better?

By the time you finally meet Meredith you already have a built in understanding about her through the quest you do and the actions of the templars and mages you interact with. You know everything you need to know about her.

If character developmment should be limited to only what we "need", then there is practically no reason to develop any character. It's not about need, it's about making it feel real and personal. About making Meredith feel like a person, like the Arishok. Not someone losing her humanity because of something we know nothing about.

As for Orsino he's just not that important a character. You don't need to know much about him because he is generally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

And he should have been relevent and important. That's the point. That the conflict is badly portrayed because there are no well written and developped characters to illustrate and communicate it. Anders was the only one.

I personally think that the mage / Templar issue is very complex and human. And that it deserved better characters to illustrate it. Imagine dealing with the Qunari, without any character development with the Arishok.  That would have felt like fighting oxmen, and not actual people, with "human" motivations and "human" reactions.