238 réponses à ce sujet

[Veilwolf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Hawke is let go on the mage side, he doesn't fight his way out.

I know he doesn't.
I am talking about Orsino at that moment. Instead of using all the power he has(heck even blood magic)  to try and escape (whether it's possible or not is not the issue, either do or die. I think they had a chance to escape), he decides that turning into a monster to kill everyone he was trying to protect and who were protecting him, was a better idea.

If, on the other hand, Orsino had actual character development hinting at us that he can crack under pressure relatively easily, or harbors intense hatred, in addition to potentially dabbling in dangerous magic, then it would have made sense. But since we know almost nothing, it just came out of nowhere and makes him look like an idiot. And that's the guy who thought what Anders did was extreme.

I'll agree to saying that I wish Act 3 had been longer, and we'd had more time to interact with Orsino and Meredith, as we did with Arishok, but to say there's nothing hinted at or explained about either of these characters isn't exactly accurate.

Potentially dabbling in dangerous magic : To this, the biggest one, is the letter you find in Quentins little sewer that's signed 'O'...debate it all you want about how many other mages may have names that start with the letter O, but point out any other NPCS you come across that are or any that would feel the need to conceal their identity or those that had access to the knowledge Quentin needed.

Crack under pressure relatively easily: Throughout the game, from Act 1 on, Meredith is always refered to as ruling the Circle with an iron fist, hence why there are so many problems with runaway mages in every single act. He's the First enchanter, and he knows what's at risk: The Right of Annulment. Pressure over time would result in cracking, First Enchanter or no...couple that with the fact that Orsino is pretty much spineless...well, fear is what fear is, and reason doesn't always see it's way to the top in that case. As others have stated, there were far more Templars then mages. After the first fight, yes, Hawkes party was still fine....how many of Orsino's mages survived? I'm sure it looked like a lost cause to him at that point, his Circle was already in ruins.

As I said, I do agree that more time could have been given to both Meredith and Orsino, but at the same time, in Act 3, it's all about the Mages and Templars reaching the boiling point...and that type of conflict isn't going to simmer for months while Hawke goes out and carries on with his business saving every kitten that found it's way up a tall tree. It was a tide of events that no matter what Hawke tried to do, he wasn't going to stop it...he was along for the ride and had to do what little he could.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Maybe if Orsino's transformation had any point, like say, attacking Meredith THEN turning on the party or something it would be okay. But all he did was stab himself, turn into the Rancor/Jabba the Hutt crossbreed, and attack me. Um...futile, pointless, contrivance to create a boss fight, rushed, just...awful story telling in my opinion.

Act 3 was a rushed mess job, not just the conclusion in my opinion; because to fix the conclusion they needed to fix the act and flush it out with characterization.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Veilwolf wrote...
Potentially dabbling in dangerous magic : To this, the biggest one, is the letter you find in Quentins little sewer that's signed 'O'...debate it all you want about how many other mages may have names that start with the letter O, but point out any other NPCS you come across that are or any that would feel the need to conceal their identity or those that had access to the knowledge Quentin needed.

Too vague. Why not meet Orsino before and have Hawke ask him the obvious question? It's his mother we are talking. But that's an opportunity gone to waste.

. As others have stated, there were far more Templars then mages. After the first fight, yes, Hawkes party was still fine....how many of Orsino's mages survived? I'm sure it looked like a lost cause to him at that point, his Circle was already in ruins.

So turn into a monster and kill your allies sounds like such a plan.
Which I wouldn't mind, if he didn't sound so sober just as he was doing it.

I am not saying that he should have remained and fought to the last. He could have tried to rally up survivors and Try escape. Would have been interesting for Hawke to cover the escape.

But again, that's not my main gripe with the thing. It's plausible, had Orsino been developped as a character, which never happened. When he did what he did, I felt nothing. I didn't feel like I was fighting Orsino. I was just fighting a monster. Completely different with the Arishok, which is what I would have preferred.
In addition to it feeling rushed and just being a boss fight for the sake of it.

As I said, I do agree that more time could have been given to both Meredith and Orsino, but at the same time, in Act 3, it's all about the Mages and Templars reaching the boiling point...and that type of conflict isn't going to simmer for months while Hawke goes out and carries on with his business saving every kitten that found it's way up a tall tree. It was a tide of events that no matter what Hawke tried to do, he wasn't going to stop it...he was along for the ride and had to do what little he could.

The character development could have been done before (though I feel the game is too crowded as it is. It should have ended at Act 2). Then yes, by the time Act 3 happens, it reaches a boiling point. But at least we would have seen them evolve and reach that point. And make us care about them as characters, or at least identify with them a bit.

Again, I take as an example the Arishok. We see his attitude changing. From patient, stoic and just distateful, to irritated, to losing his nerves and unleashing his wrath, because of acts that were shown to us, and we saw how he reacted to each one of them. And he was not completely unreasonable, and he was provoked.
The reasons why Orsino or Meredith might be losing their nerves might be obvious. But show us. It's small details that make character.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[Tommytsunami]

I do agree that Act 3 felt rushed and I wish there was more character development for both Orsino and Meredith. On another note while I despised Orsino's use of blood magic when I was clearly on his side since I could have saved him from Meredith, I did not mind Meredith going crazy from the idol. To me the idol might have some connection to the tales of the dread wolf and how the dread wolf distorted the views of the other gods for his own gain. I may be jumping the gun here but I honestly think the idol somehow has a connection to that story "could" play a significant role in the next game. I know what I'm saying is speculation, but I'm less disappointed in the idol turning Meredith mad because I have been trying to think of ways that it is connected to the conflict between the two factions of old gods.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tommytsunami wrote...

I do agree that Act 3 felt rushed and I wish there was more character development for both Orsino and Meredith. On another note while I despised Orsino's use of blood magic when I was clearly on his side since I could have saved him from Meredith, I did not mind Meredith going crazy from the idol. To me the idol might have some connection to the tales of the dread wolf and how the dread wolf distorted the views of the other gods for his own gain. I may be jumping the gun here but I honestly think the idol somehow has a connection to that story "could" play a significant role in the next game. I know what I'm saying is speculation, but I'm less disappointed in the idol turning Meredith mad because I have been trying to think of ways that it is connected to the conflict between the two factions of old gods.

And that would have been a good interesting plot. If it was hinted at in the game. I am not saying they should reveal the mystery now. But since there is no character development, at least give us something to compensate. I'd still prefer keeping outside influence out of it, but if it was interesting, I'd be all for it.

Maybe instead of having useless side quests, have something hinting to htis. Instead of having an "ethereal golem" in Varric's side-quest in Bartrand's house (so anti-climatic), have a suble hint at what the idol is. I admit, I do not like the One Ring vibe to it. But it could be interesting if linked to something greater, like the dread wolf, or Flemeth, or both.

That said, I really dislike the "evil corrupt sword" thing. Reminds me too much of this. Too cartoony and not dark in the slightest.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[boraxalmighty]

By focusing only on the things that happen in Act 3 you forget that all quest involving the Circle since Act 1 have been leading up to this point. Not a single quest in this game goes without far reaching consequences. You have to tie it all together. If you do that then the actions that everyone takes in the final act is not misplaced. And as for escaping the rite, no. It doesn't happen. It's never happened until this point. He, along with every mage in the Circle was dead. There is no escape from the rite. Understand this and his actions are not so strange. As for his attacking his friends, he is an abomination. When he transforms he is no longer Orsino. You think you would have fought enough abominations at this point to understand this. Man I am really getting sick of trying to explain this story to people. Honestly do a second playthrough and actually pay attention to things that are happening and being said in the game. It really does all make sense if you pay attention. And remember this is Varrics story. Things are going to happen that cannot be changed because they have already happened. The reason why some things go unexplained is because they did not have a defining effect on the stories main focus, namely: you.

[Tommytsunami]

Oh no I completely agree that there was no character development and I also agree with sword being too much like soul edge. I have just been trying to look on the bright side since I felt like the rest of the story was good. I really liked Act 2 and I also thought all of Act 1 has some good story in it. Act 3 unfortunately felt like nothing was really happening since there were only three main quests that didn't have substance in them.

Modifié par Tommytsunami, 15 mars 2011 - 05:01 .

[Jarlaxlecq]

To rushed, Bioware needs to work on their endings. ME2's ending left alot to be desired too

[Veilwolf]

Jarlaxlecq wrote...

To rushed, Bioware needs to work on their endings. ME2's ending left alot to be desired too

Might be because they aren't endings....they're intermissions....

[Uhh.. Jonah]

My favorite was Act 3 actually. I wish the whole game was more like Act 3.

[KnightofPhoenix]

boraxalmighty wrote...

By focusing only on the things that happen in Act 3 you forget that all quest involving the Circle since Act 1 have been leading up to this point. Not a single quest in this game goes without far reaching consequences.

Again, in the OP I said the the conflict was building up. The political scene was building up. That was all fine and I  was hyped. What I am saying is that it had no character buildup, specifically Meredith and Orsino.

I believe that conflicts like this are better represented by characters, acting like a microcosm essentially. My personal opinion of course.

And as for escaping the rite, no. It doesn't happen. It's never happened until this point. He, along with every mage in the Circle was dead. There is no escape from the rite.

Well seeing how all the Circles in Thedas managed to rebel and the Templars lost all of them, then it doesn't seem impossible. I don't see how it's impossible for mages to ferry survivors quickly and run off as fugitives (have have Hawke be the rebel leader). Makes more sense than what happened, with Templars letting my maleficar apostate go just like this. 

Add to that that we know that many mages and even Templars succesfully rioted and escaped from the Gallows.

Understand this and his actions are not so strange. As for his attacking his friends, he is an abomination. When he transforms he is no longer Orsino.

He gave in willingly, thinking that this is such an awesome plan.

But again, that's not my main issue. The main issue is, I felt nothing. Just a boss fight for the sake of a boss fight.
Orsino meant nothing to me, when he should have.

The reason why some things go unexplained is because they did not have a defining effect on the stories main focus, namely: you.

This is just a bad excuse. Hawke is not the center of the world. And he is only important in DA2 because of how he is reacting to the other characters. Characters that are not developped.

And I understand the story well, you dont' need to tire yourself and explain it to me. The point of the op is that I found it dissapointing and lacking humanity and maturity. Too banal and cartoonish for my tastes. 

EDIT: only Act 3's conclusion and the lack of character development. Act 2 was awesome.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 04:24 .

[Inujade]

I totally understand your frustration with the "magic did it" plot twist at the end, KoP, but can I just offer my own interpretation of it?

Meredith --I would say that the idol does not turn people evil or crazy, but merely amplifies something that was already there. Bartrand was greedy, and he just had to touch it once before he was willing to kill his own brother for money. Varric only had to be NEAR a very small piece of it before he started to get weird.

Varric is fairly susceptible to these sorts of things. He falls easily under that one blood mage in the brothel, and he betrays you in the Fade. But still; a TINY PIECE of the idol FAR from him was enough.

Meredith had the whole fricken idol for who knows how long, and still managed to behave reasonable and sane for years. Does that not say something about her mental fortitude? Or her moral fortitude? The thing that finally pushes her over the edge was a terrorist act, and even AFTER that, she still has doubts and remorse. IMO yes, 'magic did it,' but she's still a very interesting character. You just have to dig a little bit, this is very much a 'show, don't tell' sort of game.

Same with Orsino...it's never outright SAID, but Orsino was backing up research into blood magic and necromancy. Why? Probably for the same reason as Merrill, in that he does not believe it's inherently evil. Fear and grief pushed him to use it; he always had the ability to, but THAT MOMENT finally coaxed it out of him. What's not human about that? People have tried to go out guns blazing in similiar situations, with even more disastrous and self-defeating results.

Finally, all the abominations running around. Again, fear and grief. Peope seem to be assuming around here that every abomination was a blood mage, or otherwise evil. What about Connor? He was just a scared little boy who didn't want his father to die. All the abominations running around are just mages terrified for their lives/enraged by what Anders did.

They're just scared people, but incredibly dangerous. That's what the chantry has been saying all along, so maybe they have a point. Maybe they don't. Personally, I've been pro-mage since Origins, and even *I* was reconsidering during Act 3. I'd say that's quite a feat.

It's not as strong as Act 2 or sure, but there's definetly story-telling merit. Call it...a mature story presented in a fanciful way.

[FirstCitizen800]

Many of the complaints about Act 3 I understand. However, I think some of the complaint simply comes from the artistic direction Bioware took the 'Thedas' story. That is, in Dragon Age Orgins, it was possible to romanticise mages and purely demonize templars. In DA2, that option has been removed. I'd challenged many of the posters to simply think about how that fact has effected their enjoyment of the story. The murking up of poor oppressed mage storyline I think has just made a lot of people mad.

[Inujade]

@ FirstCitizen800 I actually loved my poor oppressed mage story being murked up --makes things much more miserable for my mage!Hawke, kukukuku.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Inujade wrote...

I totally understand your frustration with the "magic did it" plot twist at the end, KoP, but can I just offer my own interpretation of it?

Of course

Meredith --I would say that the idol does not turn people evil or crazy, but merely amplifies something that was already there. Bartrand was greedy, and he just had to touch it once before he was willing to kill his own brother for money. Varric only had to be NEAR a very small piece of it before he started to get weird.

Why does Bartrand start feeding lyrium to people and murder them gruesomely? How is that greed?

It might appeal to his greed at first, but then it clearly drove him completely nuts.

Meredith had the whole fricken idol for who knows how long, and still managed to behave reasonable and sane for years. Does that not say something about her mental fortitude? Or her moral fortitude? The thing that finally pushes her over the edge was a terrorist act, and even AFTER that, she still has doubts and remorse. IMO yes, 'magic did it,' but she's still a very interesting character. You just have to dig a little bit, this is very much a 'show, don't tell' sort of game.

I agree that it makes Meredith a more tragic character. But it did not have buildup. It didn't show us or make us feel it. At least I didn't feel it. And that's made even worse since we know nothing of the idol.

Like I said before, I would have preferred if the whole idol thing was scrapped and focused only solely on Meredith as a person. But if it was to be kept, give us hints about it, and build up Meredith's character more. It felt lacking. though I did say Meredith had more character development than Orsino, who almost had none.

Same with Orsino...it's never outright SAID, but Orsino was backing up research into blood magic and necromancy. Why? Probably for the same reason as Merrill, in that he does not believe it's inherently evil. Fear and grief pushed him to use it; he always had the ability to, but THAT MOMENT finally coaxed it out of him. What's not human about that? People have tried to go out guns blazing in similiar situations, with even more disastrous and self-defeating results.

We only find out at the end. Then we go back in retrospect and connect the dots. What I would prefer, is character buildup in between the intro and the conclusion. And I just felt that the cutscene itself was badly executed and rushed. It could have been elaborated more. 

Finally, all the abominations running around. Again, fear and grief. Peope seem to be assuming around here that every abomination was a blood mage, or otherwise evil. What about Connor? He was just a scared little boy who didn't want his father to die. All the abominations running around are just mages terrified for their lives/enraged by what Anders did.

And like I said, I do not mind them showing up. What I do mind is too much of them.
And this has to do with how I view the conflict. I view is as a very complex issue, involving people primarily, outside influence second. By making mages go crazy almost all at once, you are bringing in too much non-human interence that is removing the humanity out of it. I hope what I am saying makes sense.

In essence, it's not really mage vs Templar, it becomes demons vs everything.
Which ends up being the "all powerful evil force that wants to destroy everything". 

It's not as strong as Act 2 or sure, but there's definetly story-telling merit. Call it...a mature story presented in a fanciful way.

I see it as a mature story that was badly executed. But that's just me.

[txgoldrush]

Really, while I do think Orsino was underdeveloped...the mage/templar war wasn't its central theme. I do think while the directors mistimed Orsino's transformation, the Right of Annulment was in effect and the mages were the "weaker" side. But Orsino was not really that important of a character. Mereidth on the other hand, was set up really well.

The game's story is about escalation, of any conflict. From the mages and the templars, to the conflcit between Qunari and the city of Kirkwall, to the Dalish conflict with outsiders, to even the Bone Pit miners fight against monsters (they keep opening up new monster dens), the main central theme is about escalation (or how many times small actions can lead to bigger consquences). Not only do the antagonists escalte, but maybe the biggest escaltors are you and your companions...especially Anders, Isabella, and Merill. Even Aveline's love of Donnic leads to an escalation later. This game may be even better than The Witcher in showing how smalla ctions can lead to big consquences down the road. Anger someone, and they may attempt revenge later. Its almost as Hawke is the unintentional villian becuase it is due to his/her presence, the event shappen in th estory the way they do.

Then Anders takes it to the next level.

[KnightofPhoenix]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Many of the complaints about Act 3 I understand. However, I think some of the complaint simply comes from the artistic direction Bioware took the 'Thedas' story. That is, in Dragon Age Orgins, it was possible to romanticise mages and purely demonize templars. In DA2, that option has been removed. I'd challenged many of the posters to simply think about how that fact has effected their enjoyment of the story. The murking up of poor oppressed mage storyline I think has just made a lot of people mad.

For me, that's not the case. In Origins, my canon chocie is annulment. I never saw the Templars as evil, though I'd prefer a reform of the system.

What I want is exactly the opposite. To make both sides have valid reasons, and that both can be seen as wrong. And I feel this is best done with developped characters. I want something complex. When however you are bringing in too much demons, and too much insanity and very little character development, it sucks the complexity and humanity out of it. What we got instead is that the two faction leaders end up being maniacs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

txgoldrush wrote...
The game's story is about escalation, of any conflict.

Yes, and I think this is best achieved by character progression (not solely of course). For me, characters and their interactions should act like a microcosm.

[boraxalmighty]

Hawke is the center of everything. The story is about him. His actions during these events is the focus of this story. Everyone else is just background. The only reason Orsino gets any face time is because he is first enchanter and turning into an abomination was a reaction not a plan. Most acts of desperation and despair are rarely well thought out. He is not supposed to mean anything. He's about as important as the rest of the mages. The only important enemy in this whole game is Meredith and as I said by the time you meet her you have an understanding of her character. Even the events of act 2 are unimportant compared to what happens in act 3. All it does is explain your rise to champion status. There probably were many more interactions between all these characters but they were not important to the story being told, and don't forget this is a story. There is a specific focus to it. Varric is not explaining everything he is explaining you.

[FirstCitizen800]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

Many of the complaints about Act 3 I understand. However, I think some of the complaint simply comes from the artistic direction Bioware took the 'Thedas' story. That is, in Dragon Age Orgins, it was possible to romanticise mages and purely demonize templars. In DA2, that option has been removed. I'd challenged many of the posters to simply think about how that fact has effected their enjoyment of the story. The murking up of poor oppressed mage storyline I think has just made a lot of people mad.

For me, that's not the case. In Origins, my canon chocie is annulment. I never saw the Templars as evil, though I'd prefer a reform of the system.

What I want is exactly the opposite. To make both sides have valid reasons, and that both can be seen as wrong. And I feel this is best done with developped characters. I want something complex. When however you are bringing in too much demons, and too much insanity and very little character development, it sucks the complexity and humanity out of it. What we got instead is that the two faction leaders end up being maniacs.

I will say, Meredith was balanced somewhat by Cullen. And especially knowing Cullen's history from Dragon Age Origins, that is profound. It would have been nice if Orisno had been balanced by a similar figure. Someone who could have likewised been 'positioned' to save the circle from Orisono's madness. I had expected, as a warrior /  rouge Hawke Bethany might fill this roll. As a power hungry Hawke, I know I was scheming ro make my sister First Enchanter before I realized that was impossible.

Modifié par FirstCitizen800, 15 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

boraxalmighty wrote...

Hawke is the center of everything. The story is about him. His actions during these events is the focus of this story. Everyone else is just background.

His actions and his personality are defined by the environment he is in and the interaction he has with other characters.

Unless Varric's purpose all the time was to start a cult of personality around Hawke.

He is not supposed to mean anything. He's about as important as the rest of the mages.
The only important enemy in this whole game is Meredith and as I said by the time you meet her you have an understanding of her character.

And that's where we strongly disagree. Thinking that Meredith should be the focus of the conflict. Like I said, I felt she had little character development and too much outside influence so she fails to be the focus of the conflict if that was even intended, but we won't agree on that. The conflict is about Mages vs Templars. You cannot say that mages are unimportant and are just there to make the Templars or Meredith be important.  That's missing half the picture.

If the writers really thought this is how the story is supposed to be told, by essentially downplaying both Templars and Mages and focusing only on Meredith who had poor character development and was influenced by something we know noithing about, then I will voice my dissapointment. You're entitled to like it of course. I don't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 04:57 .

[Inujade]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meredith --I would say that the idol does not turn people evil or crazy, but merely amplifies something that was already there. Bartrand was greedy, and he just had to touch it once before he was willing to kill his own brother for money. Varric only had to be NEAR a very small piece of it before he started to get weird.

Why does Bartrand start feeding lyrium to people and murder them gruesomely? How is that greed?

It might appeal to his greed at first, but then it clearly drove him completely nuts. 

Well this is where I venture into almost complete speculation, but...

Those things in the ancient Thaig? The rock wraiths? From what I picked up in the Codex, they used to be dwarves. Primitive dwarves, from the lack of any modern Dwarven culture. Also, Varric said he could hear a 'song' from the lyrium, the same way Justice could in Awakening, or (even more creepy) the same way darkspawn hear the Old Gods.

Perhaps there's some ancient instinct still left in modern dwarves to consume lyrium the way those rock wraiths did? Or to force others to in some sort of religious frenzy. Like the way darkspawn feel compelled to dig for the Old Gods at the expense of all else.

But again, this is just completely off the wall speculation.  But I do think its telling that the idol affected a human completely differently than it affected a dwarf.

[KnightofPhoenix]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...
I will say, Meredith was balanced somewhat by Cullen. And especially knowing Cullen's history from Dragon Age Origins, that is profound. It would have been nice if Orisno had been balanced by a similar figure. Someone who could have likewised been 'positioned' to save the circle from Orisono's madness. I had expected, as a warrior /  rouge Hawke Bethany might fill this roll. As a power hungry Hawke, I know I was scheming ro make my sister First Enchanter before I realized that was impossible.

I agree that Cullen was a good addition. But I do not feel it enough to shed light onto Meredith as a character.

To refer back to the example of Loghain, in addition to cutscenes that were telling, we also learned about him from people who knew him personally. It helped form such an awesome character, love him or hate him. I didnt' feel we got any of that with Meredith.

The obvious option was to make the Grand Cleric talk about her as a person. And have some cutscenes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 04:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Inujade wrote...
Well this is where I venture into almost complete speculation, but...

Those things in the ancient Thaig? The rock wraiths? From what I picked up in the Codex, they used to be dwarves. Primitive dwarves, from the lack of any modern Dwarven culture. Also, Varric said he could hear a 'song' from the lyrium, the same way Justice could in Awakening, or (even more creepy) the same way darkspawn hear the Old Gods.

Perhaps there's some ancient instinct still left in modern dwarves to consume lyrium the way those rock wraiths did? Or to force others to in some sort of religious frenzy. Like the way darkspawn feel compelled to dig for the Old Gods at the expense of all else.

But again, this is just completely off the wall speculation.  But I do think its telling that the idol affected a human completely differently than it affected a dwarf.

And that's all very interesting. But it was not elaborated in the game.

Instead of having the anti-climactic ethereal golem, delve more into the nature of the idol. Maybe then, I wouldn't have been fixated as much on Meredith's character development.

[Inujade]

What was WITH that ethereal golem anyway? Now there's where I missed something.

And hey, I totally agree...the main problem with DA2 was that it asked more questions than it answered, and goodness knows there were enough leftover from the last game.

I guess I just never had a problem with Meredith because to me a whole lot of her character seemed implied. That early scene where the pickpocket runs out of her way...the completely BAMF way she was introduced in Part 2...the part where everyone found out my character was not only a mage, but an apostate, and she slowly sheathes her sword instead of arresting me.

True, she's no Loghain, but Loghain was a complex and deeply personal character. Meredith was more like this looming presence, more akin to the Archdemon. Not saying she's pure evil like the Archdemon, just that she had that narrative affect.