238 réponses à ce sujet

[boraxalmighty]

You all are asking too much of the storyteller. When someone is telling a story with a singular focus delving too deeply into the surroundings of that focus detract from the focus. The lore created by the actions of the champion and the things he interacts with is for another time. Here the focus was Hawke and his actions. The reason Origins allowed such depth with all characters is because it was a here and now event. It wasn't someone's interpretation of the event it was the event itself. We'll have full details later through dlc or books or codex but for this story all of that is immaterial.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Inujade wrote...
True, she's no Loghain, but Loghain was a complex and deeply personal character. Meredith was more like this looming presence, more akin to the Archdemon. Not saying she's pure evil like the Archdemon, just that she had that narrative affect.

Exactly, and I think Meredith should have been like Loghain. Because the conflict, I think, should have been represented by complex and deeply personal characters, not a looming presence, made even more distant because of the idol that we know so little about. But again, that's my personal opinion. Some can be totally fine with that. I just feel that DA2 did not do the Templar / Mage question a lot of justice, a major reason being little character development.

Heck, even the Archdemon becomes somewhat more personal when you do the DR. Technically, he'll become your son, inhabiting a body created by your sperm lol 

[Esbatty]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Inujade wrote...
True, she's no Loghain, but Loghain was a complex and deeply personal character. Meredith was more like this looming presence, more akin to the Archdemon. Not saying she's pure evil like the Archdemon, just that she had that narrative affect.

Exactly, and I think Meredith should have been like Loghain. Because the conflict, I think, should have been represented by complex and deeply personal characters, not a looming presence, made even more distant because of the idol that we know so little about. But again, that's my personal opinion. Some can be totally fine with that. I just feel that DA2 did not do the Templar / Mage question a lot of justice, a major reason being little character development.

Heck, even the Archdemon becomes somewhat more personal when you do the DR. Technically, he'll become your son, inhabiting a body created by your sperm lol 

How dare you speak of son/sperm that way. THATS PERSONAL!

[KnightofPhoenix]

boraxalmighty wrote...

You all are asking too much of the storyteller. When someone is telling a story with a singular focus delving too deeply into the surroundings of that focus detract from the focus.

You do realize that Cassandra is starting an investigation and is not there drinking tea and listening to a fun story, right?

The lore created by the actions of the champion and the things he interacts with is for another time.

Another time when? Why should I count on that?

We'll have full details later through dlc or books or codex but for this story all of that is immaterial.

And I don't think it should have been immaterial. The Varric telling the story thing is a poor excuse. Many narratives assume a flashback kind of style and can delve into character development. 

Cassandra is interested in the truth of what happened, and not in hearing Hawke being the center of the world. It's important info to know how Hawke percieved Meredith and Orsino and how they evolved, at least in his eyes.

And finally, I am playing a game. Not listening to Varric telling the story. If he had time to tell Cassandra about every single bloody fight, including fighting gangs that is completely irrelevent to the main story, and also about every single purchase he made at shops, then I htink he has time to talk about more important things.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[Sresla]

Whoever posted (I'm sorry, I don't recall who it was) that Act 2 and Act 3 should be reversed - I'm in complete agreement with you.

I could tolerate everything about the idol (with the exception of Meredith flying up in the air, that was a little... I dunno. Bad.) but up until the second where Anders stepped forward and is all "Chantry goes boom", she wasn't even (in my opinion) beyond reason. When you go to confront her and Orsino, doesn't she say something to the effect of, "Then give me a better solution" which neither Hawke nor Orsino do - because it's all a vicious circle, isn't it? The stricter Meredith becomes, the more the mages start seeking other means of whatever (escape, what have you) - and so then Meredith pushes some more...

Logically, I suppose you can argue that H&O's solution would be for Meredith to step down and have someone like Cullen take over, but Meredith isn't wrong in her argument that a  power vacuum like that might make things worse for the city, not better and the Grand Cleric - who probably should have intervened prior to this (and let's say that's even the option you're given at this point: Meredith, let's let the Grand Cleric decide and she agrees) suddenly goes boom. So now Meredith flips out as predicted, Orsino knows that regardless that it was the act of a single mage, the city will be calling for blood, so he snaps too and the act ends as normal (the statues can still come to life but Meredith can't fly around like Sephiroth, and Orsino can still become the Harvester because he's not a really good guy himself).

Now Meredith and Orsino are both taken out in Act 2 (minus the crazy flying up in the air bit) and we move on to Act 3. The mages are running amok, the Templars (under Cullen) are trying to restore order but having to be militant about it, the Chantry is bereft of its Grand Cleric so there's no spiritual leader - all that's left is Lord Dumar who was, to a great extent, content to let Meredith lead. The city is in chaos, crime increases and all the while, there are more and more converts to the Qun because, as I'm sure the qunari think of it, the sheep seek the shepherd - and that increases conflict between the Andraste followers and the Qun converts. Aveline is one woman (and, although amazing) can't keep all the bad things at bay which eventually drives the Arishok to taking over the city because he is just fed up with all the disarray.

Hawke kills the Arishok, which results in open war with the qunari (not only have we killed the Arishok, but we've got their most sacred book of Koslun) and this is where we come back to Varric at the end of the game - the qunari are invading, the nations aren't united because what happens to Kirkwall spreads to other Circles and the Chantry, likely the only large enough combined military force is too busy trying to keep everything from completely unravalling from within their own order. which would explain why Cassandra is looking for Hawke and ostensibly, why Leliana (and I think the other Grey Wardens too, come to that) are looking for the Warden - they're the two people who the nations might rally behind, galvanizing everyone to repell the "threat", given their past feats.

Enter DA3 - you can import either Hawke or the Warden to play through the qunari invasion. Everyone's happy.

Modifié par Sresla, 15 mars 2011 - 05:29 .

[Inujade]

Now here's a thought...couldn't we say that the role of "complex, personal Templar" had already been filled by Cullen? I mean, this is a guy who was tortured by mages, even says at one point that mages can't be treated as human, yet otherwise he's a pretty good guy. If you have a mage!Hawke, he's even respectful of you.

Barring that, perhaps Carver.

As for the mage side of things...you have a highly magical family. You, or your sister, or even some of your friends can easily fill that role.

BTW I'm not actively trying to change your mind KoP, I'm just enjoying the debate is all.

[tausra]

The biggest let down for me was the idol. I was hoping for some horror-story from Meredith's past, some mortal and emotional justification for her intolerance, but it never came.

We have a Templar punishing and oppressing Mages for an unknown reason, the whole time wondering why. Its revealed the entire circle is composed entirely of blood mages, extreme but justifiable. You're psyched now, it's time to confront Meredith and demand an explanation from her. What do we get? Deus ex Machina.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Inujade wrote...

Now here's a thought...couldn't we say that the role of "complex, personal Templar" had already been filled by Cullen? I mean, this is a guy who was tortured by mages, even says at one point that mages can't be treated as human, yet otherwise he's a pretty good guy. If you have a mage!Hawke, he's even respectful of you.

Barring that, perhaps Carver.

As for the mage side of things...you have a highly magical family. You, or your sister, or even some of your friends can easily fill that role.

BTW I'm not actively trying to change your mind KoP, I'm just enjoying the debate is all.

Cullen was great yes. But I felt he was overshadowed by Meredith. It's only at the last second that he turns on her, when she reveals her insanity.

Now had Meredith been scraped entirely and Cullen was the Knight Commander, it might have been more interesting. And there is also Thrask, who was also a unorthodox Templar.
Now mages were shown in a worse light imo. On one hand you had Thrask. On the other, you had the hysterical idiot Grace. Meh. 

An extremist character can still be complex and personal. Ideally, what it should have been like is have two extremists well developped characters for both sides (say Meredith and Orsino), and have two "on the fence" characters (Cullen and a mage that should have been in the game but wasn't, at least not prominantly).  Alternatively, Ander is already the well-developped extremist, and Orsino could have been developped better as the moderate, but unlike Cullen who sees sense, Orsino loses it.

And I am enjoying the discussion as well

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 05:38 .

[Hrodric]

I agree with KoP that the difference between Act 2 and Act 3 are... significant to say the least. Act 3 felt too disjointed--maybe a time constraint issue. Having her flying through the air had me expecting a <<HADOUKEN>>

That, plus, by Act 3 the plateful of CopyPasta runneth over to the nth degree.

[tausra]

Inujade wrote...

Now here's a thought...couldn't we say that the role of "complex, personal Templar" had already been filled by Cullen? I mean, this is a guy who was tortured by mages, even says at one point that mages can't be treated as human, yet otherwise he's a pretty good guy. If you have a mage!Hawke, he's even respectful of you.

He was deep, and he had a personality, but Meredith is the villian and she has no reasonable justification for it. No personal motivation, beyond protect the city. There's no depth to her character, beyond her established attitude towards mages. Meredith comes as a cardboard cut-out of a character, Orsino looks only slightly better.

[boraxalmighty]

The whole game is a flashback sequence. The whole point of the game is the character development of Hawke. Everyone else is just there for effect. The seeker wants to know the champion and the truth behind his actions. You don't need to know every little thing about everyone else to know Hawke and understand his motives. Fact is Varric most likely doesn't know everything. Understand the person telling the story and you understand the story he tells. Varric said he didn't know what the idol was, Meredith was a recluse and not many people really knew her and he didn't have many dealings with the mages because they were kept under lock and key during Meredith reign as knight-commander. Varric is not all knowing so his story won't cover all the bases just what he remembers and what he has an understanding of.

[FirstCitizen800]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Inujade wrote...

Now here's a thought...couldn't we say that the role of "complex, personal Templar" had already been filled by Cullen? I mean, this is a guy who was tortured by mages, even says at one point that mages can't be treated as human, yet otherwise he's a pretty good guy. If you have a mage!Hawke, he's even respectful of you.

Barring that, perhaps Carver.

As for the mage side of things...you have a highly magical family. You, or your sister, or even some of your friends can easily fill that role.

BTW I'm not actively trying to change your mind KoP, I'm just enjoying the debate is all.

Cullen was great yes. But I felt he was overshadowed by Meredith. It's only at the last second that he turns on her, when she reveals her insanity.

Now had Meredith been scraped entirely and Cullen was the Knight Commander, it might have been more interesting. And there is also Thrask, who was also a unorthodox Templar.
Now mages were shown in a worse light imo. On one hand you had Thrask. On the other, you had the hysterical idiot Grace. Meh. 

An extremist character can still be complex and personal. Ideally, what it should have been like is have two extremists well developped characters for both sides (say Meredith and Orsino), and have two "on the fence" characters (Cullen and a mage that should have been in the game but wasn't, at least not prominantly).  Alternatively, Ander is already the well-developped extremist, and Orsino could have been developped better as the moderate, but unlike Cullen who sees sense, Orsino loses it.

And I am enjoying the discussion as well

I agree with you. And in truth, I see Orisno more as the potential 'moderate' than the evil, to Anders extrimism. If dragon age were a book, the existing story line might work. As an RPG that is supposed to offer choice, it fails because of a lack of symetry. A true mage rebellion, more involved, with side-missions, ect. led by Anders versus a more restrained Orisno would have made the game feel less like a "Be dupped by blood mages or not," choice and more a philosophical / ideological choice we'd come to expect.

[KnightofPhoenix]

boraxalmighty wrote...

The whole game is a flashback sequence. The whole point of the game is the character development of Hawke. 

Since we are going in circles, I'll just leave it at this:
If that what the intention of the game, I am dissapointed and feel it shouldn't have been that way, because I am interested in the larger issues more than I am interested in Hawke perse.  My personal opinion, and I didn't claim it was anything else.

[tausra]

boraxalmighty wrote...

The whole game is a flashback sequence. The whole point of the game is the character development of Hawke. Everyone else is just there for effect. The seeker wants to know the champion and the truth behind his actions. You don't need to know every little thing about everyone else to know Hawke and understand his motives. Fact is Varric most likely doesn't know everything. Understand the person telling the story and you understand the story he tells. Varric said he didn't know what the idol was, Meredith was a recluse and not many people really knew her and he didn't have many dealings with the mages because they were kept under lock and key during Meredith reign as knight-commander. Varric is not all knowing so his story won't cover all the bases just what he remembers and what he has an understanding of.

Your point falters when the codex is brought up. Unless he remembers every book that Hawke read then those shouldn't have been included. If he does recall those inane facts then he should be able to recall those rumors about Meredith, or any confessions she may have made.

Modifié par tausra, 15 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[uncledolan]

I was also disappointed in the game when I chose to side with the mages and then all of them turned into demons basically, same with Orsino. The only reason I'd still side with them is because Bethany was in the circle... does anyone know what happens if you side with the Templars and Bethany is in the circle?

[FirstCitizen800]

uncledolan wrote...

I was also disappointed in the game when I chose to side with the mages and then all of them turned into demons basically, same with Orsino. The only reason I'd still side with them is because Bethany was in the circle... does anyone know what happens if you side with the Templars and Bethany is in the circle?

You have the option of killing Bethany or Sparing her if you side with the Templars. However, I've never killed her yet, and in the epilouge they still say hawke was a rallying cry for mages. (Maybe becaue I haven't been horrible to them while still generally siding with the templars.) I'm working on an a all Templar, kill all mages, playthrough, but I can hardly bring myself to do that. But if I do, I hope the epilouge won't still have me being the rallying cry for mages.

[boraxalmighty]

tausra wrote...

boraxalmighty wrote...

The whole game is a flashback sequence. The whole point of the game is the character development of Hawke. Everyone else is just there for effect. The seeker wants to know the champion and the truth behind his actions. You don't need to know every little thing about everyone else to know Hawke and understand his motives. Fact is Varric most likely doesn't know everything. Understand the person telling the story and you understand the story he tells. Varric said he didn't know what the idol was, Meredith was a recluse and not many people really knew her and he didn't have many dealings with the mages because they were kept under lock and key during Meredith reign as knight-commander. Varric is not all knowing so his story won't cover all the bases just what he remembers and what he has an understanding of.

Your point falters when the codex is brought up. Unless he remembers every book that Hawke read then those shouldn't have been included. If he does recall those inane facts then he should be able to recall those rumors about Meredith, or any confessions she may have made.

He does recall the rumors about Meredith. They for the base understanding you have of the character when you meet. You here no rumors of her past from anyone so that never comes into effect. This story is about Hawke so yes every book he reads, every items he buys, ever **** he sleeps with is recalled. The story is not about Meredith so you get none of that. Varric knows Hawke and he is the one telling the story.

[uncledolan]

FirstCitizen800 wrote...

uncledolan wrote...

I was also disappointed in the game when I chose to side with the mages and then all of them turned into demons basically, same with Orsino. The only reason I'd still side with them is because Bethany was in the circle... does anyone know what happens if you side with the Templars and Bethany is in the circle?

You have the option of killing Bethany or Sparing her if you side with the Templars. However, I've never killed her yet, and in the epilouge they still say hawke was a rallying cry for mages. (Maybe becaue I haven't been horrible to them while still generally siding with the templars.) I'm working on an a all Templar, kill all mages, playthrough, but I can hardly bring myself to do that. But if I do, I hope the epilouge won't still have me being the rallying cry for mages.

As long as I'm not going to kill my sister I might also make a sword + shield templar playthrough as well. Most of the mages you rescue turn out to be bloodmages later anyways lol

[Foolsfolly]

OP hit the nail on the head. Perfectly done, sir.

Most of the mages you rescue turn out to be bloodmages later anyways lol

Isn't that the truth! It's like the only mage in the game that isn't a Blood Mage or an Abomination is Hawke (if you don't get Blood Magic) and Bethany!

Slam dunk argument for the Templars since the whole Kirkwall Circle is corrupted by demons from the top to the bottom. Too bad the Templars are ruled by a crazy idol-worshiper demigod.

I agree so much with the OP on these points.

Also I was on the Dragon Age wiki just now. I wanted to know more about First Enchanter Orsino, since I have no idea why he turned into a Harvester.

So I'm reading along and I find this:

The sight of his dead friends (there will always be bodies, it doesn't matter if a successful defense leads to no casualties) causes him to reveal that he knew Quentin, the blood mage responsible for killing Leandra, and also revealing that he was the mysterious "O", the person who sent messages to him. In a state of panic, sadness, and desperation, he then uses the research learned from Quentin to combine himself with his fallen comrades' bodies to transform into a Harvester, which Hawke promptly defeats.

THAT was the Quentin he mentions? I had no idea what he meant when he said Quentin was right. I didn't even remember the bastard's name. And the First Enchanter was friends with that guy?

.....fricken Arishok should have 'ordered' Kirkwall.

[FirstCitizen800]

Foolsfolly wrote...

OP hit the nail on the head. Perfectly done, sir.

Most of the mages you rescue turn out to be bloodmages later anyways lol

Isn't that the truth! It's like the only mage in the game that isn't a Blood Mage or an Abomination is Hawke (if you don't get Blood Magic) and Bethany!

Slam dunk argument for the Templars since the whole Kirkwall Circle is corrupted by demons from the top to the bottom. Too bad the Templars are ruled by a crazy idol-worshiper demigod.

I agree so much with the OP on these points.

Also I was on the Dragon Age wiki just now. I wanted to know more about First Enchanter Orsino, since I have no idea why he turned into a Harvester.

So I'm reading along and I find this:

The sight of his dead friends (there will always be bodies, it doesn't matter if a successful defense leads to no casualties) causes him to reveal that he knew Quentin, the blood mage responsible for killing Leandra, and also revealing that he was the mysterious "O", the person who sent messages to him. In a state of panic, sadness, and desperation, he then uses the research learned from Quentin to combine himself with his fallen comrades' bodies to transform into a Harvester, which Hawke promptly defeats.

THAT was the Quentin he mentions? I had no idea what he meant when he said Quentin was right. I didn't even remember the bastard's name. And the First Enchanter was friends with that guy?

.....fricken Arishok should have 'ordered' Kirkwall.

Yeah, I remember the feeling. After spending the last ten years of your life defending Mages and Orisno and his Mages, you realize that they were complicit in your mothers murder. And -  this is one of the things I like about DA2 - you realize going through life as a mindless pick the noble option machine doesn't make you a noble, it just makes you a matricide complicit deuchbag fool. Ah, horrible at the time, but in the history of gaming - refreshing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Which felt forced. Imagine for a sec, that you know that the one who murdered your mother was in liason with someone in the Circle. Wouldn't you investigate and ask the first Enchanter?

That convo should have been there and that would have been a good opportunity to develop Orsino's character.

[FirstCitizen800]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which felt forced. Imagine for a sec, that you know that the one who murdered your mother was in liason with someone in the Circle. Wouldn't you investigate and ask the first Enchanter?

That convo should have been there and that would have been a good opportunity to develop Orsino's character.

True, although I do like some push-back against meta-gaming. Origins, and DA2 has push-back against being a ass all the time, or choosing the red all the time in new-age-bioware speak. But there is rarely any consequence to choosing the bluie mindlessly all the time.

[Cajeb]

Yeah really wish I coulda sided with the Arishok

[Cajeb]

The problem with Orsino being in on the mom's death is it makes the thing pretty black and white instead of grey. Meredith becomes right. That whole circle is ****ed all the way to the very top

[jesot]

The lyrium idol thing was completely unecessary. You had reason to side with the Mages because Meredith wanted to kill all of them (protect the innocent), and you had reason to side with the Templars because it seemed like every bad thing that happened in Kirkwall was a result of blood magic (which even your mage Hawke is against).

I didn't mind Orsino turning into a harvester so much, but you should have been given the option to kill him or fight with him once he did that. The Meredith lyrium idol thing was just completely unecessary.

We should have gotten more Orsino early in the game. He shows up in the Fade and helps you get to the Arishok at the end of Act II, but I had no idea who he was until Act III. You hear about Meredith, but don't get to know anything about her until Act III.

Thrask trying to unite the Templars and Mages was far more interesting than they let it be. What a cop-out that situation was...

And helping Feyndriel (sp?) was also one of the more interesting stories in DA2 (I'm sure we'll see him in DLC/Exp/DA3). Never actually completing the mirror was lame (and so was slaughtering the Dalish camp).

The lyrium idol gave us some good fights in Deep Roads to get our feet wet in boss fights and set up some fun companion questing, but they should have left it at that.