238 réponses à ce sujet

[Luckywallace]

I agree that having both Meredith and Orsino go nuts was weak. Act 3 was still good but Act 2 was by far the strongest Act and the best written.

Having one of the two go mad wouldn't have been bad, but both of them?

[Maria Caliban]

azarhal wrote...

I don't think we were supposed to get to know Meredith or Orsino, beside their respective point-of-view.

The Arishok wasn't best buddies with Hawke, but I understand his point of view and still think he's a fully fleshed out character.

[tausra]

The problem is that there's no dimension to Orsino or Meredith, We get rumors for most of the game, two quests at the end of the game, and then out of nowhere we discover they're both crazy. No emotional investment, no build up, no real reason for it.

[MaglorArcanist]

I have hated ignore the only damm healer i haved in the entire game (anders) in the chapter 3, bioware remember to give us options whe we have to make choice, not only "kick the healer and pray".

After this, chapter 3 is something take out from Warhammer 40k, an entire city contamined with chaos and madness and the laughs of the dark gods... serius at the last i can be sure the lord commander at the hand can be say "blood for the maker, skulls for the maker trone" when orsino in dispair can cry to the god of change for more power and change...
No sense, no options, only death, madness, survival and no choice at all.

Orsino - Meredith escalation is too... mindless, all mage are blood mage, all circle are blood mages circle (see the mage you take off the cave in the capter 1) mages aren't a options at all in this game, the bioware force you to the templars, and meredith aren't a option becouse the damm madness...

There is no good there is no evil only war, death and the laughs of the dark gods (and they twisted idol...)... sorry but is dragonage or warhammer, how much time the inquisition take to come with the black ships and do a good sanctio extremis exterminatus? LOL

And at last... the chapter 3 is inconclusive... idol story isn't finish, party story isn't finish, Eluvian story isn't finished... chapter 3 isn't finish dragon age 2... it's a half chapter who need someting to close the damm story, ok, we need some open doors to continue... but at the end we haven't a single door closed, even the damm templars / chantry / mages war dosn't conclude at the end.
The game seems need chapter 4.... but if they do it in a pay dlc... i can scream.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Sure, I wouldn't mind a codex entry. I wouldn't mind a side quest where we learn more about the idol or the harvester experiment, but it's not important. It's not what Act 3 lacks. What Act 3 lacks is a better developed Meredith and Orsino.

Indeed, I agree. That's my main gripe.

What I was saying in the previous posts in that particular discussion is that if there is no character development, at least give us hints what the idol is (a perfect opportunity in Varric's quest. But we get an ethereal golem instead). Would I feel that this is enough to alleviate the lack of character development? No, but it would have been better than what we got.

But ideally, it should have been more character development, with either a scrapped idol, or like you said, a more subtle idol.

And I'm glad many feel the same way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MaglorArcanist wrote...
There is no good there is no evil only war, death and the laughs of the dark gods (and they twisted idol...)... sorry but is dragonage or warhammer, how much time the inquisition take to come with the black ships and do a good sanctio extremis exterminatus? LOL

LOL yea, that's pretty much it.
It works in Warhammer 40K, as the whole thing is marketed as "there is only war". It's a dystopia essentially.
I don't think it works in DA2.

Too much dark renders it banal and breaks immersion. Especially when combined with cartoon like fights, with leaping Meredith, red eyes, soul edge sword...etc

[Darth Obvious]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Acts 2 and 3 should have been switched. The local quibble between the Templars and Mages wasn't anywhere near epic enough to be taken seriously as the conclusion, and Meredith was nowhere near as threatening or awe-inspiring as the Arishok.

How in the world could the developers not have come to this conclusion as well? Were they just not paying attention to their own story? An immense invasion force by the Qunari would have been a fantastic finale, but instead we get the old, annoying lady who is somehow possessed. Utter lameness.

[boraxalmighty]

.....whatever.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Azjurai wrote...

Surely I can't be the only person who got the back story from Meredith about her sister and why she became a templar (certainly made her more 'real' to me)?

See, I didn't get to hear this. Apparently, you have to talk to her after you accept the quest from Orsino.
I am partially to blame (and apparently many others missed it), but it's important info, so why not make Meredith say it when she is giving us the quest? That way, there is no avoiding or missing it.

Like I said before, Meredith did have more character than Orsino. But I feel, even with this info, that it's too brief and confined at one place. We don't see her progressing. Yes, we know why she has a harsh view on magic. But why is she becoming more and more paranoid? As it turns out, the idol did it. And no matter how I spin it, it always comes down to the idol ruining it for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[Darth Obvious]

Yeah, the idol explanation was incredibly weak, and nothing but a "deus ex machina" excuse for her behavior when they couldn't apparently think of any decent way to make her character interesting.

What a disaster. Bioware needs better writers.

[PARAGON87]

I couldn't understand how when we sided with Orsino he just goes nuts and turns into a harvester.  We don't fight along side of him? 

I thought we were going to help him? Not turn him mad? He made a great distraction in Act II with the qunari, it would've been awesome to see those fireworks in-game.

Plus, what was the deal with "getting everyone ready" in the Gallows before we assault the Templars in Act III? There were no places to get items unless you were a Rogue with a high Cunning skill; basically it was your last chance to say goodbye.

I stand with the OP with this, Act I & II were awesome, Act III was like "What just happened?"

Modifié par PARAGON87, 15 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Darth Obvious wrote...
What a disaster. Bioware needs better writers.

I'd agree, except Act 2 was awesome. I mean, I am just as confused as I am dissapointed. What happened?

If this was a crappy game from the start, I wouldn't have been as dissapointed. But I was hyped, then this happened.

[Shepard Lives]

Act 2 was amazing.
Act 3, not so much. Really, I agree with the entirety of the OP.

I do think the "Anders blows **** up" scene was very well done, though. You had constant hints that he was going a touch bonkers, and then BAM. I seriously considered siding with the Templars for a second there. That, to me, is a victory for the writing staff.

But yeah the end sucked. Really badly.

[PARAGON87]

Plus, what happened to the timeline? Right before Anders blew up the Chantry I thought only 7 years had passed? I thought this game spanned a decade?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shepard Lives wrote...
I do think the "Anders blows **** up" scene was very well done, though. You had constant hints that he was going a touch bonkers, and then BAM. I seriously considered siding with the Templars for a second there. That, to me, is a victory for the writing staff.

That was the only redeeming thing about the end. Anders was being built up from the start. While I do not expect something identical with Meredith and Orsino, as they are not companions, some character development and progression should have been there.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 04:43 .

[MortalEngines]

 I agree with KOP mostly, alot of the time, when characters spoke of Meredith and Orsino, I would think "I don't even know them, why should I care?". When it came to choosing sides, it wasn't Meredith or Orsino who governed my choice, rather it was my own perception of what I felt was right, when really, Meredith and Orsino should of being compelling enough to make it a hard choice.

However, I feel the idol was essential to the conflict. While I don't think it should of needed to be in there as the reason for Meredith's psychaotic behaviour, it needed to have some part in the ending of the Status Quo. Why? Because otherwise Hawke would not have been so important. Imagine Act 3 (which technically contains the most consequences in the overall condition of Thedas) without the idol. Then Hawke would have no purpose or true effect on the story, essentially, the whole reason Hawke was so important to the story was that if it wasn't for Hawke finding the Idol, none of this would of happened. The idol MUST play a big role in order for Hawke to play a big role.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
Then Hawke would have no purpose or true effect on the story, essentially, the whole reason Hawke was so important to the story was that if it wasn't for Hawke finding the Idol, none of this would of happened. The idol MUST play a big role in order for Hawke to play a big role.

But it's reducing that importance to essentially an accident, and in the process reducing almost the entire conflict to an accident. Which people could like, and I could like if it was written well and didn't take from the humanity of the issue. Which I didn't think was the case here.

The idea that Hawke was so important was an idea Cassandra had (she believed Hawke orchastrated everything). It didn't have to be true, it could have been more nuanced.

[tausra]

I disagree, the conflict would have happened, it just would have taken longer. Had the idol never been found, Meredith was still getting tougher on mages and the entire circle was still teaching blood magic. Picture it like starting a fire, without the idol you have some kindling and a match, with the idol you have a gallon of gasoline and a blowtorch, either way the fire gets going, one just gets out of control faster.

Hawke is still the hero, and still influenced the whole of the story, I mean without Hawke the Arishok would have won. The opinion and position of Hawke on the Mage/Templar argument could be make or break for either side, especially without our Deus Ex Machina.

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
But it's reducing that importance to essentially an accident, and in the process reducing almost the entire conflict to an accident. Which people could like, and I could like if it was written well and didn't take from the humanity of the issue. Which I didn't think was the case here.

The whole of DA2 is basically, unfortunate incidents, misunderstands and radical behaviour. And I think that contary to what you propose, that is a part of humanity. Sometimes things don't happen because of some huge conspiracy or because of growing conflict. Sometimes things happen by accident, because human nature and humanity is equally as choatic as it is structured. 

You make a point that Hawke's importance is underplayed slightly which I agree to, but I feel his importance wasn't just his importance to the conflict, but to what happened AFTER the conflict. Technically, the whole Anders scenerio can be chalked up to accident as well (not like justice turned to vengence on purpose) but that doesn't make it any less important. Just because something isn't purposeful doesn't mean it loses it's value.

For instance, if I shoot the President of the United States by accident and this led to WW3, I would be considered important to WW3. Sure, it was an accident, but it was my accident that caused the conflict and thus I am STILL important.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 15 mars 2011 - 05:08 .

[Everwarden]

Darth Obvious wrote...

Yeah, the idol explanation was incredibly weak, and nothing but a "deus ex machina" excuse for her behavior when they couldn't apparently think of any decent way to make her character interesting.

What a disaster. Bioware needs better writers.

Bioware has fine writers*, maybe they just need to hire more writers if they intend to force a game in such a short time? To me it feels like the game had solid, great writing up until the third act, and then it just completely falls apart.

*I say this as someone who strongly, strongly disliked Dragon Age 2.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
The whole of DA2 is basically, unfortunate incidents, misunderstands and radical behaviour. And I think that contary to what you propose, that is a part of humanity. Sometimes things don't happen because of some huge conspiracy or because of growing conflict. Sometimes things happen by accident, because human nature and humanity is equally as structured as it is choatic. 

And I never said that isn't part of humanity, unless that incident happens to be some sort of artifact that turns people into murderous loonies. The spark that led to the conflict could have been a misunderstanding or radical behaviour, without involving this all powerful idol that we know nothing about. 

An assassination is NOT an accident. Finding an artifact in a deep roads expedition that you know nothing about, finding its way to Meredith and then turning her crazy, is close to an accident. Yes, I am sure Gavrilo Princip didn't think he was causing WW1, but what he did was not an accident.

And I think that Hawke's importance could have been emphasized much better than this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[fallingseraph]

The '(blank) makes someone go mad has been done so many times I cringed throughout the whole Act.

[Statulos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
The whole of DA2 is basically, unfortunate incidents, misunderstands and radical behaviour. And I think that contary to what you propose, that is a part of humanity. Sometimes things don't happen because of some huge conspiracy or because of growing conflict. Sometimes things happen by accident, because human nature and humanity is equally as structured as it is choatic. 

And I never said that isn't part of humanity, unless that incident happens to be some sort of artifact that turns people into murderous loonies. The spark that led to the conflict could have been a misunderstanding or radical behaviour, without involving this all powerful idol that we know nothing about. 

An assassination is NOT an accident. Finding an artifact in a deep roads expedition that you know nothing about, finding its way to Meredith and then turning her crazy, is close to an accident. Yes, I am sure Gavrilo Princip didn't think he was causing WW1, but what he did was not an accident.

And I think that Hawke's importance could have been emphasized much better than this.

Plausible and realist does not necessarily mean fun for every genre. It´s an RPG we´re talking about, not a film nor a novel, nor a theatrical play. RPG are supposed to put you in the eye of the storm and give you an active role on the events being depicted. Just like you say, in act 3 i have the feeling that nothing I did counts, absolutely nothing. In act 2 I still had some voice to go for this or that, even if that voice was far more limited than the one I had in Origins.

[MortalEngines]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I never said that isn't part of humanity, unless that incident happens to be some sort of artifact that turns people into murderous loonies. The spark that led to the conflict could have been a misunderstanding or radical behaviour, without involving this all powerful idol that we know nothing about. 

An assassination is NOT an accident. Finding an artifact in a deep roads expedition that you know nothing about, finding its way to Meredith and then turning her crazy, is close to an accident. Yes, I am sure Gavrilo Princip didn't think he was causing WW1, but what he did was not an accident.

And I think that Hawke's importance could have been emphasized much better than this.

The idol isn't the cause of the conflict though, it was a catalyst, it sped things up, but it was no a cause. Hence, it is the act of finding the idol, rather than the idol itself that causes conflict, and infact it is HUMAN ERROR, which causes this idol to be placed in Meredith's hands.

My example may have been poorly written, I didn't shoot the president with the intention to shoot him, I shoot a gun which was accidently aimed at the president. Here's a better example.

I'm a chef for a king who is the last in line to his family. I'm new, so I accidently place something the king is allegic to in the meal. The king dies from the allergic reaction and his death sparks civil war. While I didn't mean to cause civil war at all and it wasn't my intention, my acts DID cause it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MortalEngines wrote...
The idol isn't the cause of the conflict though, it was a catalyst, it sped things up, but it was no a cause. Hence, it is the act of finding the idol, rather than the idol itself that causes conflict, and infact it is HUMAN ERROR, which causes this idol to be placed in Meredith's hands.

I know it was not the cause and that's why I'd rather not have it there to begin with and focus on the conflict itself, with a meaningful spark without nefarious interference, coupled with actual character development.

Human error implies at least some knowledge of what it is your are dealing with. Here, you have no idea what the idol is. It's not an error to find it and take it with you.

I'm a chef for a king who is the last in line to his family. I'm new, so I accidently place something the king is allegic to in the meal. The king dies from the allergic reaction and his death sparks civil war. While I didn't mean to cause civil war at all and it wasn't my intention, my acts DID cause it.

And that's all fine and dandy, I am not arguing about the plausibility (it's magic). I am arguing that this was a poor way to communicate the story and I felt it stripped it of humanity. Because nefarious artifacts that turn people insane is not human. Finding it might be, but in and of itself, it isn't. 

What should have been done is focus on the actual conflict itself and the characters implicated in it and how escallated. It didn't need to have an unknown idol. That would have been much more interesting. And I don't care about making Hawke the most important person ever (by accident). I care about his place in the larger picture and his interactions with people. If that was Bioware's intent, then I will express my dissapointment. 

And if there was going to be an exterior influence, then make it like Saren and Sovereign. That was perfectly written. We see Saren progressing and changing. Rationalizing himself. Doubting. Then losing control. Then finally potentially redeeming himself. THAT is exterior non-human influence done right, which did not strip Saren of his "humanity". Because the indoctrination of Saren was subtle. With Meredith, we got a small glimpse of all that in the last 5 minutes only and it was far from being subtle (evil sword, red eyes, jumping in the air). That, plus we had an idea what the reapers are, vs the nothing we know of the idol.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 mars 2011 - 05:52 .